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Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Played a game against new Tau last night, 50 PL

Their list (as best as I can remember)

Etherial with shield drones
Shaper
2 x 10 kroot
10 breachers
10 pathfinders
2 krootox
1 great knarloc
1 stealth suit team
1 ghostkeel
Playing the sept that lets auxillary units use Tau buffs

My list:
shield captain yeetus
3 x 1 allarus
Vexilla praetor
Eversor assassin
2 x 3 Sagittarum
1 x 3 venatari

His first game as Tau, second game this edition.
His list is, what anyone in the Tau community would call, total gak.

And he put the whopping on me.

I won 50-35 on points but I was almost completely tabled. D3 rail rifles are really strong against us, breachers trade up really. Even the kroot, through layers of buffs, are hitting against my invul saves. I took maybe 5 actual armor saves that game. It just felt like even the shittiest Tau units were kitted out to punish custodes.

I can't even imagine what it would have looked like if we both took competitive lists.

Anyone have any solid advise for facing the fish men?

A couple of things. First power-level isn’t really competitively balanced. Second; you’re playing low amounts of models at 50 PL. Once again the game isn’t as balanced at smaller size. Put those together and your game is far from competitive 40k even before lists.

That said I think your game will be a micro/comso of how our matchup with Tau will be like. They will kills us, we will outscore them early. Who wins just depends on how quickly they kill us and how much of a points lead we can get early.

Which benefit did you choose for the Vexilla? If the Tau were relying heavily on Cover you could take the Fulminaris Agressor with it. You may also want to skip it just to have more PL available.

Been trying to actually build and run my bike list. Here's what I have, unpainted, right now.

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [99 PL, 1,995pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Shadowkeepers

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts, -1CP]: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, Auric Aquilas, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes

Trajann Valoris [9 PL, 160pts, 1CP]

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 150pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 400pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Hurricane Bolter & Misericordia: 5x Hurricane Bolter, 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia

++ Total: [99 PL, 12CP, 1,995pts] ++


Very weak on the horde game, and the psyker game. But hopefully if I play it correctly, nothing will be alive after turn 3 anyway.

I have only read the first 5 pages so apologies if this has already been mentioned.
In the first 5 pages many people mentioned the Salvo Launchers as go-to anti tank. However, if you consider the hurricane bolter option instead and give these hurricanes All Seeing Anihilator from a bike captain and use the strat to give them Redax stance 1 whenever they need it (plus to take ASA they must be Dread Host, so gain the -1ap), then the Math hammer shows that the hurricanes are almost as good as the Salvo Launchers against most T7/8 and better against T7/8 that have invulns.

Below is the the Mathhammer on average wounds caused by both. The first value is for 3 Salvo Launchers rerolling hits due to a bike captain. The second is from 3 Hurricanes, rerolling hits, and given ASA and Redax Stance 1. Worth noting that since you are looking at far more dice for the hurricanes, they will be less swingy:

T8 3+
7.29
6.42

T8 3+ 5++
4.86
6.42

T8 2+
6.07
4.28

T7 3+
9.72
9.33

T7 3+ 5++
6.48
9.33

T7 2+
8.10
6.22

As you can see, the SLs are noticeably better against 2+, whilst the HBs are noticeably better against invulns. The SLs are slightly better against 3+ with no invulnerable.
The HBs will also have the ability to gut troops unlike the SLs.

However, unless running Rendax Stance 1 that turn, it will cost a CP and it will require you to run Dread Host.

I think for the versatility (and cheaper cost) HBs are definitely worth a look in for (surprisingly) Tank/MC Hunting (if taking Dread Host).

Edit: None of this takes into account the -1D units which would put the HBs ahead in everything that is not a 2+ and only very slightly behind on the 2+.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Been trying to actually build and run my bike list. Here's what I have, unpainted, right now.

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [99 PL, 1,995pts, 12CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Shadowkeepers

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts, -1CP]: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, Auric Aquilas, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes

Trajann Valoris [9 PL, 160pts, 1CP]

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 135pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia: 3x Guardian Spear, 3x Misericordia

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 150pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 400pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Hurricane Bolter & Misericordia: 5x Hurricane Bolter, 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia

++ Total: [99 PL, 12CP, 1,995pts] ++


Very weak on the horde game, and the psyker game. But hopefully if I play it correctly, nothing will be alive after turn 3 anyway.

I like it. If hordes are Huge in your meta, you Can go 2x hurricane but i Think youre good as is.

Salt donkey wrote:


A couple of things. First power-level isn’t really competitively balanced. Second; you’re playing low amounts of models at 50 PL. Once again the game isn’t as balanced at smaller size. Put those together and your game is far from competitive 40k even before lists.

That said I think your game will be a micro/comso of how our matchup with Tau will be like. They will kills us, we will outscore them early. Who wins just depends on how quickly they kill us and how much of a points lead we can get early.

I realize neither of us were playing optimized or competitive lists, but my list was a solid B-rate custodes ~1k and his was solidly D-tier tau and the whole things was a uphill battle that I only won because I have a lot more experience in 9th than my opponent. It just feels bad that Tau can play whatever they want and even a noob will do okay.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:


A couple of things. First power-level isn’t really competitively balanced. Second; you’re playing low amounts of models at 50 PL. Once again the game isn’t as balanced at smaller size. Put those together and your game is far from competitive 40k even before lists.

That said I think your game will be a micro/comso of how our matchup with Tau will be like. They will kills us, we will outscore them early. Who wins just depends on how quickly they kill us and how much of a points lead we can get early.

I realize neither of us were playing optimized or competitive lists, but my list was a solid B-rate custodes ~1k and his was solidly D-tier tau and the whole things was a uphill battle that I only won because I have a lot more experience in 9th than my opponent. It just feels bad that Tau can play whatever they want and even a noob will do okay.

So PL is literally play whatever you want as options, the only thing that costs you are the models. Tau have a zillion options they can take. We have very few, like 3. Swords, Spears, and Axes. With a free dagger that is no longer really an option. It's like saying a game against space marines in PL is unfair because they can take everything. That's literally their design style. Good at everything, master of nothing. That being said,

If you are having an uphill battle against a faction with zero melee, you may need to have a look at your tactics. The key to destroying tau is still, as it has always been, get into melee. We have a great way of doing that.

its worth pointing out that the PL/points ratio of a unit can vary quite a lot, so its quite possible to have a "balanced" PL game where the points values of the units on the table is quite different. (for example, a min size squad of rubric marines is PL 6, but could be anything between 105 and 149 points), so thier might be either "Hidden" efficiencies in his list or deficiencies in yours that might skew the result somewhat (naturally the bigger the game, the closer the PL and Points values tend to end up, so it might be more pronounced at lower PL).

Generally speaking, if a unit can purchase alot of wargear options, it will be stronger playing PL. If i cannot purchase any wargear, its stronger in points play.

Seeing as how all our wargear is either free or basically nothing (5-15pts) unless you get into the big models, I can see how PL would have a negative effect against Custodes. Whereas Spacemarines would get a ton of value out of it. I think Tau can fit in that mold also.

the only units we have that benefit from PL are Aquilon terminators and Achilles Dreadnoughts.

Agamatus too, but those are poo poo bad atm cause GW forgot to update their wounds characteristic.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
the only units we have that benefit from PL are Aquilon terminators and Achilles Dreadnoughts.

Agamatus too, but those are poo poo bad atm cause GW forgot to update their wounds characteristic.

Excellent points.

Unfortunately, GW has too much corporate correctness going on (i.e. not admitting mistakes), so our best hope is to wait for the 10th edition update of the FW book. Not for free, mind you.

So, Custodes claimed 6 of the top 10 at the Beachhead Brawl Major, with the Tau claiming the #1 and #2 spots.

My BCP is perpetually busted, so I can never get it to work. Any common trends to see in those lists?

Had a match against Dark Eldar last weekend.

Army - 2000pts Shadowkeepers

Photos

General thoughts and observations:
-My opponent brings a versatile list of Dark Eldar every time we play. The last time we played he had his 9th Codex while I was still using my 8th and thanks to my durability and objective game won handily. This time not so much.
-Dark Eldar are another army with a large amount of high Strength/AP weapons so I spent most of the game on my 4++ Invul except for poison weapons
-Round 2 was a bloodbath, Tanglefoot grenade rolled a measly -1" to the charge and Drazhar and a swarm of Incubi descended on my Guard Squads, Vexilla and Valerian. Shadowkeepers -1 Attacks helped soften the blow but Hitting on 2s and Wounding on 2s meant most of my troops did not survive. I had also already used Arcane Genetic Alchemy on my western flank earlier that phase to ensure I kept the objective. The game was decided by this point but we played out the rest for a fun Saturday afternoon.
-Indomitable Engines came in handy when my opponents Talos dished out 6 MW on one attack. I need to make use of "Wisdom of the Moritoi" on my Dreads more often.
-I really enjoyed running Aleya with the Vigilators. Certainly not optimal but high volume of S5 AP-3 & Reroll 1s to Wound was a serious threat towards the T5 vehicles my opponent was fielding. While I love the Vigilator models the Witchseekers appear to be much better for a TAC list.
-Master of Martial Strategy has gotten me back no less than 3CP in every game I've played so far. Very handy, can't imagine running an army without it.

We have a rematch next week. I think I'll play more conservatively to make it harder for him to pull off his charges. I may swap out the Imperial Agent to bring a swarm of Prosecutors. We shall see!

 iGuy91 wrote:
So, Custodes claimed 6 of the top 10 at the Beachhead Brawl Major, with the Tau claiming the #1 and #2 spots.

My BCP is perpetually busted, so I can never get it to work. Any common trends to see in those lists?

Skimmed through the lists a few days ago, they were mostly EC, but only similar in the basics: Trajann, PP Cap, Bike Cap, 5 Prosecutors, 3 Shields, 1-2 Allarus solo units, 2-3 bikes. The rest was mixed, someone brought more bikes, sags, other brought double telemon, others FW contemptors etc.

I think we need a FAQ to quell the idiocy that is "NERF THE PP!" so that it's at least played correctly, I think Trajann needs a points buff, and I think Bikes and Termies need a slight points nerf, maybe 5 points each. I don't think anyone can argue Trajann at this point. But our points can easily be argued. I feel like this is the first time since 8th that I've had fun with my list building. I can depend on all my units to do their jobs well for the cost. We aren't Tau or DE broken, but we are very good.

I wish there was a sabermetric style of breakdown by player. Were the top 6 Custodes lists played by noobs or MVPs? Were the Tau actually broken or did the dice roll hot? See, W/Ls are crap if we don't know why they won or lost. I don't think a bad custodes player with good rolls, can beat a good space marine player with average rolls.

I do think a bad Tau or DE player with good rolls can beat a good Custodes player with average rolls.

Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

I'm thinking a squad of both makes a lot of sense. 1 shield, 2 spear is 140 points, and works well, can use the shield to soak high ROF shots, and fights decently vs monsters and vehicles
x3 Shield is a good squad to go to midfield and brawl.

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

If you want the competitive perspective, I believe the answer is sword+board or Saggitarum.

Has anyone actually used Sags competitively? Auspex Tactics have listed as B tier to the Spears A Tier.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone actually used Sags competitively? Auspex Tactics have listed as B tier to the Spears A Tier.

I wouldn't take Auspex Tactics as law, as he, by his admission, does it purely on theorycrafting/math-hammer, never experience.

Sagittarum have been excellent in my personal experience, as they contribute almost all game, giving them added value not captured by pure math-hammer.

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

The 1+ is great when dealing with AP-1 or AP-2, you can also use the Vexilus Praetor and the Cover banner to further boost your Armor Save. That said if you regularly play an army that has lots of AP-3 or AP-4 weaponry then the Shield doesn't do a whole lot since you'll still spend a lot of the game on your 4++ Invul. S7 on the Spears can be quite nice when playing against armies that have lots of T6 & T7. You can always mix-and-match your squads to test them out. If you're concerned about range though try out some Sagittarum.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone actually used Sags competitively? Auspex Tactics have listed as B tier to the Spears A Tier.

Vincent Chandler took 4th at Beachhead Brawl with Sags and sword and board.

Treynor Wolf took 1st at NorCal open with just Sags and a Prosecutor squad.

Brady Tateo took 1st at CaptainCon with just Sags.

Just to give sine examples.

 Sketch201 wrote:
Now that the new Codex is out in the wild, what are everyone's thoughts on the loadout to give Custodian Guard? Guardian spears vs. Sword and board?

They both have the 4+ invuln now, so maybe the shield is less useful than it used to be, but the 1+ save sure is nice to have. The spear hits harder in melee and has longer reach vs shooting, but the sword has the Pistol trait and can be fired in melee.

I'm just so torn! Help a battle brother out?

Maybe I'm just resilient to change, but I still roll with sword n board. The 1+ is incredible, and the improved blade profile means that they hit just enough. Ofc spears are better offensively, but do you need them? Do you not have enough hitters as is? I frequently swarm the midboard with wardens and shields, and with the -1 to hit strat of the latters, I hit like a hammer and take like an anvil.

Wait, how do you get the +1 from the flag and ALSO the +1 from the shield? I thought you can't stack saves beyond 1? Or is that just "to hit" modifiers?

Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

 Thairne wrote:
Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

This.

If you want to get technical, it's a 2+ save on 1d6+2 (minus AP mods) since an ACTUAL 1+ or 0+ save is an unmodifiable 2+ armor save, but the 1+ or 0+ works as shorthand.

Fun fact! You can get Bullgryns to save better than Custode, including a 5+ against a Hammerhead's Railgun.

That Bullgryn has just won the game if the opponent is wasting hammerhead shots on a squad of elite infantry. Just saying.

 Thairne wrote:
Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

Short answer, yes, the light cover will stack with the bonus to the armor from a Custodian Guard Shield.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Just hit and wound.
You can always get a 0+ save, but the 1 will always fail and ap modifiers never were capped - otherwise AP -2 wouldn't make sense

This.

If you want to get technical, it's a 2+ save on 1d6+2 (minus AP mods) since an ACTUAL 1+ or 0+ save is an unmodifiable 2+ armor save, but the 1+ or 0+ works as shorthand.

Fun fact! You can get Bullgryns to save better than Custode, including a 5+ against a Hammerhead's Railgun.

Spoiler:

4+ save base.
+2 from a Slab Shield.
+1 from Light Cover.
+1 from Take Cover! (Guard stratagem)
+1 from Psychic Barrier.
Ending save of -1+, or AP-8 needed to negate fully.

I'm picturing this situation in my mind, a high-powered magnetically-accelerated projectile flying at like Mach 50 toward a giant mutant ogre-man and bouncing off of what is basically a fancy piece of metal he's holding up. And he says, "Hurr, is dat all you got?"