Tyranid Codex rumours (first three full datasheets pg23)

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**Skywave**

The range boost should have been enough to make de Fleshborer decent. It might have been fine on Gargoyles since they fly and move fast, but regular Gaunts often did nothing with them at 12" range. Plus getting a whole unit of 30 to shoot was an issue.

Going S5 and -1 in addition is a bit much, especially if that come at a premium increase in points. I want my gaunts cheap first, killing power is secondary for them, and S4 was already plenty for them.

**EviscerationPlague**

xttz wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeah, that is way too strong for what is supposed to be a cheap spammy gun. Every termagant is really running around with a weapon of higher strength than a bolter? That just doesn't feel right thematically.

Out of curiousity I did some quick mathhammer:

At the very start of 8E it took an average of 12 S4 fleshborers to kill 0.99 MEQ models (with of course 1 wound).
Right now using this profile without any strats or other special rules on either side, 12 fleshborers kill a grand total of... 0.99 2W marines.

From an anti-marine POV all that's happened is gaunts catching up to exactly where they were before 9E. Except of course when any transhuman or ignore AP abilities are in play, in which case they're worse off.

So much for buffing Marine toughness when they're gonna make Tyranid and Eldar guns mulch through them at the same rate and then at the same time kill vehicles and other giant targets quicker.

GW really doesn't understand how their own toughness chart works.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

If they're buffing Fleshborers to at least give gaunts a chance against MEQ, what about devourers? If those leaks are right they just plain suck now against everything.

**GaroRobe**

I wish the Parasite included some redesigned rippers to go alongside it. The current kit is pretty dated.

Heck, I'd have been happy with a dead guard and a ripper chestbursting out of it (as long as you could remove said guardsmen easily)

**Voss**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
xttz wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeah, that is way too strong for what is supposed to be a cheap spammy gun. Every termagant is really running around with a weapon of higher strength than a bolter? That just doesn't feel right thematically.

Out of curiousity I did some quick mathhammer:

At the very start of 8E it took an average of 12 S4 fleshborers to kill 0.99 MEQ models (with of course 1 wound).
Right now using this profile without any strats or other special rules on either side, 12 fleshborers kill a grand total of... 0.99 2W marines.

From an anti-marine POV all that's happened is gaunts catching up to exactly where they were before 9E. Except of course when any transhuman or ignore AP abilities are in play, in which case they're worse off.

So much for buffing Marine toughness when they're gonna make Tyranid and Eldar guns mulch through them at the same rate and then at the same time kill vehicles and other giant targets quicker.

GW really doesn't understand how their own toughness chart works.

Oh, wow. I didn't even think about how this messes with vehicles, just because the concept is so dumb. If there are _any_ +1 to wound bonuses in the codex (or reroll wounds, or worse, both), fleshborers 'gant swarms are going to happily strip wounds off T8 tanks

**tneva82**

Sureshot05 wrote:
Really not keen on the increase in strength of the fleshborer. It feels like a bad solution to what to do with these horde units. Rather than drop the cost and truly embrace a horde for termagaunts, we have raised their effectiveness by a huge amount, which means that they are going to have to cost.
And i concur, feels thematically wrong for these guns to be dangerous to marines. Guardsmen, yes, but marines? They will need to redo the Space marine 2 trailer if these are their new guns!

Unless the next marine dex is putting all the marines up to toughness 5...

a) GW moves away from horde atm. That's back for 10th or 11st edition
b) you assume they won't just give free power update like other books been giving

**Dudeface**

I just don't get it. In terms of in-setting justification for a s5 ap-1 gun, it just isn't there.

Balance wise I'm not sure gaunts will be ripping up the meta but it massively irks me that they're toting guns of that quality compared to so many other factions now.

**tneva82**

Dudeface wrote:
I just don't get it. In terms of in-setting justification for a s5 ap-1 gun, it just isn't there.

Balance wise I'm not sure gaunts will be ripping up the meta but it massively irks me that they're toting guns of that quality compared to so many other factions now.

Don't worry. They will fix that. Next marine codex will have S6 AP-2 bolters for marines

And the idea that Astartes Power Armour might be a thing that ignores first point of AP might not be that far fetched idea...

**xttz**

tneva82 wrote:
[

a) GW moves away from horde atm. That's back for 10th or 11st edition
b) you assume they won't just give free power update like other books been giving

Yeah their approach since early 9th has been to keep a strict limit on 'spammable' troop units like cultists / poxwalkers / Boyz / gaunts. GW clearly don't want to see regular lists with 100-200 models swarming tables, so we get inflated point costs and occasionally hard caps like with cultists.

Sometimes those units get a buff or two to compensate for the fact they're not worth 5ppm+, but of course it's not always enough. The Discord leaker heavily implied gaunts will cost more points than currently, without giving a figure.

**MajorWesJanson**

Voss wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
xttz wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yeah, that is way too strong for what is supposed to be a cheap spammy gun. Every termagant is really running around with a weapon of higher strength than a bolter? That just doesn't feel right thematically.

Out of curiousity I did some quick mathhammer:

At the very start of 8E it took an average of 12 S4 fleshborers to kill 0.99 MEQ models (with of course 1 wound).
Right now using this profile without any strats or other special rules on either side, 12 fleshborers kill a grand total of... 0.99 2W marines.

From an anti-marine POV all that's happened is gaunts catching up to exactly where they were before 9E. Except of course when any transhuman or ignore AP abilities are in play, in which case they're worse off.

So much for buffing Marine toughness when they're gonna make Tyranid and Eldar guns mulch through them at the same rate and then at the same time kill vehicles and other giant targets quicker.

GW really doesn't understand how their own toughness chart works.

Oh, wow. I didn't even think about how this messes with vehicles, just because the concept is so dumb. If there are _any_ +1 to wound bonuses in the codex (or reroll wounds, or worse, both), fleshborers 'gant swarms are going to happily strip wounds off T8 tanks

The buff to a lot of guns to s5 and 6 is why vehicles and monsters need to be buffed in toughness. With even leadership breaking the 10 mark, there is no reason even titans should be limited to T8.

**Iracundus**

xttz wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
[

a) GW moves away from horde atm. That's back for 10th or 11st edition
b) you assume they won't just give free power update like other books been giving

Yeah their approach since early 9th has been to keep a strict limit on 'spammable' troop units like cultists / poxwalkers / Boyz / gaunts. GW clearly don't want to see regular lists with 100-200 models swarming tables, so we get inflated point costs and occasionally hard caps like with cultists.

Sometimes those units get a buff or two to compensate for the fact they're not worth 5ppm+, but of course it's not always enough. The Discord leaker heavily implied gaunts will cost more points than currently, without giving a figure.

If any army should have 100-200 models swarming tables, it should be Tyranids.

**Tyel**

Usual story of waiting and seeing.

S4->S5 AP-1 feels heavily like creep. But I can't really say basic fleshborers were impacting the meta much.

**Dudeface**

Tyel wrote:
Usual story of waiting and seeing.

S4->S5 AP-1 feels heavily like creep. But I can't really say basic fleshborers were impacting the meta much.

I agree, I think the issue is you'll likely see chaos marines after maybe with s4 ap - bolters and they'll just immediately seem less meaningful than what will inevitably be a max 8 point gaunt at range. Fear the impending s4 ap-2 lasgun!

**xttz**

Iracundus wrote:

If any army should have 100-200 models swarming tables, it should be Tyranids.

In theory, sure. Unfortunately there's a bunch of practical issues that mean we're unlikely to see the tabletop accurately reflect the fluff.

Making it viable to put that many models on a table means it's possible block out whole swathes of the board; preventing opponents manoeuvring, getting in weapon range of targets, or near objectives.

Killing up to 200 models is just incredibly unfun to play against, as we often found in 8th. It's slow to play and many factions require a tailored list to clear that many wounds quickly enough.

It requires Tyranid players to buy and likely paint up to ten times the models as other armies.

What I think is far more likely to happen is that GW will add some ways to bring back dead gaunts without costing reinforcement points, in the spirit of the old Without Number rules. Those new models are effectively already 'baked in' to the 6-8ppm cost you pay upfront when writing an army list.

**Platuan4th**

Just do what AoS did to fix the summoning issues: hard limits or earning resources to spend. Allow a Tervigon to Spawn any combo of say 40 Gants max over a game and bake that into the cost like FEC do. Or do a X points killed equals so many Biomass points and use that to determine how much you can summon like Daemons do in AoS.

**Kanluwen**

Dudeface wrote:
I just don't get it. In terms of in-setting justification for a s5 ap-1 gun, it just isn't there.

Balance wise I'm not sure gaunts will be ripping up the meta but it massively irks me that they're toting guns of that quality compared to so many other factions now.

Serious question, as I don't have any of the old Tyranid books anymore...

Was there any biomorph that improved AP on weapons? Might be that Gargoyles have it "rolled in" now? Or it's possible the boosted stats are to compensate for the lack of a melee weapon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:
Just do what AoS did to fix the summoning issues: hard limits or earning resources to spend. Allow a Tervigon to Spawn any combo of say 40 Gants max over a game and bake that into the cost like FEC do. Or do a X points killed equals so many Biomass points and use that to determine how much you can summon like Daemons do in AoS.

I may or may not be crossing my fingers for the Brood Nests to someday make a reappearance.

**Eldarsif**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Stormonu wrote:
Seriously, is there any weapon in 9E in the new books that isn’t at least AP -1 anymore?

Firstborn bolters.

Death Guard bolters weep.

**Tyran**

There is actually a precedent for S5 fleshborers. Back in 4th edition, a fleshborer termagant with toxin sacs had S5.

**Mr_Rose**

Bring back Gargoyles with Flamespurt guns, dammit! If the Adeptus Mechanicus can have flappy fire bois the ‘Nid can have them back again.

**Nevelon**

Mr_Rose wrote:
Bring back Gargoyles with Flamespurt guns, dammit! If the Adeptus Mechanicus can have flappy fire bois the ‘Nid can have them back again.

That is something.

What is these stats are not for gaunts, but just gargs?

**Daedalus81**

Nevelon wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So devourers are crap now and its all about Fleshborers?

Have we seen the stats on them yet? IIRC one source of leaks basically said that it was the case, but not sure if that was hyperbole or not.

In any case there is a great new combat patrol to help you re-buy all the gribbles you need!

Or just count all your devourers as fleshborers.

**Nevelon**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Nevelon wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So devourers are crap now and its all about Fleshborers?

Have we seen the stats on them yet? IIRC one source of leaks basically said that it was the case, but not sure if that was hyperbole or not.

In any case there is a great new combat patrol to help you re-buy all the gribbles you need!

Or just count all your devourers as fleshborers.

I’ve done it the other way round, so why not?

Personally I only own 30, and they are 15/15. I’m less fussed about WYSWYG with my nids, as they are a casual army. And handwaving a whole units to be the same gun is an easy counts-as.

**Dudeface**

Kanluwen wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
I just don't get it. In terms of in-setting justification for a s5 ap-1 gun, it just isn't there.

Balance wise I'm not sure gaunts will be ripping up the meta but it massively irks me that they're toting guns of that quality compared to so many other factions now.

Serious question, as I don't have any of the old Tyranid books anymore...

Was there any biomorph that improved AP on weapons? Might be that Gargoyles have it "rolled in" now? Or it's possible the boosted stats are to compensate for the lack of a melee weapon.

Not that I can recall, as other have mentioned there was a wildly inefficient method for bumping up the strength. The AP has always been equal to a bolter however, but they also didn't have a melee weapon previously.

**xttz**

Today's leak:

So, just to start out: a quick reminder about how the hive fleet traits work. There's two parts, a static and an adaptive - the adaptive trait can be switched out for something from the Lurk, Feed, or Hunt table - three tables of 5 traits each. Each hive fleet has access to two of these tables (for example, Leviathan can swap out their adaptive trait for anything from Feed or Hunt, kronos can swap for anything from Feed or Lurk, etc).

Now with all that reminder out of the way, here's one of the possible traits from each table. Remember that these can be switched out after you see your opponents list.

Lurk: Ignore ap-1
Feed: Targets of a charge cannot fire overwatch or set to defend
Hunt: All units in your army can heroically intervene as if they were characters

Bonus leak: Overrun not only stayed, but actually got buffed in the new codex

Warrior & Prime stats (this is in line with previous Discord leaks)

Warriors: +1BS, +1S, +1T
Prime: +1BS

Discord leaker confirms Primes can now take venom cannons (and presumably barbed stranglers)

**Grimskul**

Damn, tyranid warriors got BEEFY.

**Dudeface**

Ok, so the s5 ap-1 dumbassery applies to spinefists as well. Stellar. Add to that the 5 shot devourers because we all wanted gaunts spewing out 150 s4 shots at 18".

I think this may be the book that finally breaks me.

**xttz**

Dudeface wrote:
Ok, so the s5 ap-1 dumbassery applies to spinefists as well. Stellar. Add to that the 5 shot devourers because we all wanted gaunts spewing out 150 s4 shots at 18".

I think this may be the book that finally breaks me.

Devourers on gaunts have a different profile: Assault 2 S3

And before anyone freaks out, a reminder that these S+1 rending claws are a different profile to Genestealers.

**Dudeface**

xttz wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Ok, so the s5 ap-1 dumbassery applies to spinefists as well. Stellar. Add to that the 5 shot devourers because we all wanted gaunts spewing out 150 s4 shots at 18".

I think this may be the book that finally breaks me.

Devourers on gaunts have a different profile: Assault 2 S3

And before anyone freaks out, a reminder that these S+1 rending claws are a different profile to Genestealers.

If that's the case are they going marine-ise the nids? Devourer, nomnom devourer, chonky devourer for the 3 profiles assumingly?

Edit: has the 2 shot variant on gaunts been confirmed visually?

**Madjob**

Barbed strangler and venom cannon are disappointing. For a gun that can only be taken 1 for every 3 models, D3 shots with 2 damage is not attractive at all, and the strangler stacks up poorly against almost any of the other anti-infantry guns they can take (though it could have a new ability that changes things).

**xttz**

Dudeface wrote:

Edit: has the 2 shot variant on gaunts been confirmed visually?

Not as far as I know, but it comes from a source that predicted everything on that Warrior datasheet (and others) accurately.