GW And What 40k Should Be

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**Backspacehacker**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we talked about this in the last thread. For the bad rap that USRs get, it was pretty much agreed on (unlike the thread before that) that ultimately the real issues everyone had, once we hashed it out, wasn't with USRs, but how GW bungled them from the word go (like the USR that gives two USRs).

Yeah pretty much, im pretty sure in that last thread i even said, that if GW would have laid out and presented the USR in a way that was a lot easier to find/reference, no one really would have cared.
Like if we had data cards back in 7th that had just all the USR that model got, i dont think any one would have been complaining about them.

**aphyon**

Many games have been released in the past 30 years that are just better to play than any edition of 40k is. If you're already giving up active support and pre-existing community, why would you continue to play 40k at all? You're already picking up a dead game, why not pick up a GOOD dead game?

I thought this was clearly addressed. many of us enjoy the grim dark 40K universe setting and also i have a huge collection of 40K minis dating back 20 years. some of my minis are probably older than some of the posters on these forums. i would still like to use them in games of 40K where i don't have to chase the flavor of the month. since i hate the rules mechanics for 9th and i still own all the old rule books and codexes why would i NOT continue to play 40K? it is only 1 game in my collection and it is a different play style than say infinity, DUST, warmachine, or classic battletech.

Backspacehacker wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we talked about this in the last thread. For the bad rap that USRs get, it was pretty much agreed on (unlike the thread before that) that ultimately the real issues everyone had, once we hashed it out, wasn't with USRs, but how GW bungled them from the word go (like the USR that gives two USRs).

Yeah pretty much, im pretty sure in that last thread i even said, that if GW would have laid out and presented the USR in a way that was a lot easier to find/reference, no one really would have cared.
Like if we had data cards back in 7th that had just all the USR that model got, i dont think any one would have been complaining about them.

I always see the USR problem being about 7th. in 5th there was no USR problem. there were 22 in the BRB (2 1/2 pages) and that was it. they covered everything in the game and were easy to learn and remember.

**Sim-Life**

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Lots of perfect games in the 50% clearance bin at the FLGS.

Can you point me to these stores? I'd love to buy some cheap Malifaux and Infinity models.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Sim-Life wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Lots of perfect games in the 50% clearance bin at the FLGS.

Can you point me to these stores? I'd love to buy some cheap Malifaux and Infinity models.

Flying to Canada might eat into the savings and Malifaux isn’t in there. Malifaux doesn’t see much play, although I know two fellows in another town that quite like it.

**Sim-Life**

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Lots of perfect games in the 50% clearance bin at the FLGS.

Can you point me to these stores? I'd love to buy some cheap Malifaux and Infinity models.

Flying to Canada might eat into the savings and Malifaux isn’t in there. Malifaux doesn’t see much play, although I know two fellows in another town that quite like it.

So what games do you see in the 50% off bin? Obsolete Warmahordes stuff?

**EviscerationPlague**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think we talked about this in the last thread. For the bad rap that USRs get, it was pretty much agreed on (unlike the thread before that) that ultimately the real issues everyone had, once we hashed it out, wasn't with USRs, but how GW bungled them from the word go (like the USR that gives two USRs).

Sometimes it was necessary, like how Zealot functioned due to Hatred applying to a model rather than unit. However I don't think most people would think a model giving Hatred to an attached unit as broken, so it's whatever.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Sim-Life wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Lots of perfect games in the 50% clearance bin at the FLGS.

Can you point me to these stores? I'd love to buy some cheap Malifaux and Infinity models.

Flying to Canada might eat into the savings and Malifaux isn’t in there. Malifaux doesn’t see much play, although I know two fellows in another town that quite like it.

So what games do you see in the 50% off bin? Obsolete Warmahordes stuff?

Stopped in to the FLGS on the way back from work to pick up an order - poked around the bins.

My mistake, one bin is a mixture of Infinity and indeed Malifaux at 50%. The other is a mixture of Warmasomethings. Not sure on the price, but the line had actual shelves at the FLGS circa 2016. Now what's left is clumped around this bin.

**Pacific**

You'll probably find some of the Infinity minis are old line miniatures that have been replaced or not even valid in the game any more (some Combined Army options for example). I'm not sure if CB asks for the miniatures back once they get superseded (or stores aren't able to do this) as I've noticed a lot of FLGS have that kind of stuff in their bargain bins.

**Sim-Life**

Pacific wrote:
You'll probably find some of the Infinity minis are old line miniatures that have been replaced or not even valid in the game any more (some Combined Army options for example). I'm not sure if CB asks for the miniatures back once they get superseded (or stores aren't able to do this) as I've noticed a lot of FLGS have that kind of stuff in their bargain bins.

This is the reason I asked. Most mini companies will lets FLGSs discount their models if the rules they put in with them become obsolete or get a resculpt. Both Infinity and Malifaux have had new editions in the last few years. Framing them allowing FLGSs to discount the minis because they're obsolete as the games being unpopular or inferior to 40k is disingenuous.

Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

**Deadnight**

Sim-Life wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Lots of perfect games in the 50% clearance bin at the FLGS.

Can you point me to these stores? I'd love to buy some cheap Malifaux and Infinity models.

O/T but I have some pan-o and ariadna I'm not using and am happy to sell. :p

Honestly though the 'bargain bin' isn't something I've seen much of round here, though I'm always hopeful I'll find one with some old gems

**vipoid**

Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

**VladimirHerzog**

had some more thought about this, realised i was describing Grimdark Future by OnePageRules lol. Glad i made the swap

**Deadnight**

vipoid wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

Off topic but basically this:

Deadnight wrote:
For me it just felt mk3 was a rushed cash grab full of changes rather than improvements.

More importantly to me pp used to be the 'different' approach company. With mk3 they did everything they claimed gw did and they'd never do.

They had to redesign skorne from the ground up straight out of the gate and rewrite half the rules (never mind playtesting this edition for 3 years and balance...). I didn't like how omnipotent themes became (basically play a theme or gtfo) and I didnt like how bloated the game was becoming, both on the tabletop and in the rosters. CID didn't help. As a khador player I saw nothing that excited me for years. The design space was just cluttered and loads if the new ideas were just soulless. They run out of ideas. While I love the models, trencher long gunners was one example. What's next? Winter guard pikemen? Iron fang kommandos?

Add to that pp made a lot of anti-retailer decisions at that time which turned retail against them (really poor idea when you rely on third party retail!) and killed their forums which alienated a lot of fans (I was glad the forum was killed; to me it was a toxic salt mine poisoned by group think and zero creativity) but still... they axed the press ganger programme which was a huge self-inflicted wound since that basically wiped out their grassroots volunteers. no quarter was canned which crushed me. There was no new fiction from skull Island. Hell there was no new fiction (unless you count thr hengehold twitter tweets). It was just a great reset right hack to where it all started. Mk2 had better plot lines like caine/magnus/julius. Mk3 fekt like 'the great reset'. Toruk assaulted the mainland directly. And then went back home. No change. Khador gave back point Bourne. With the start of mk2 there were seismic shifts. Mk3 didn't give me that.

Where I am in the UK also the player base was struggling though the end of mk2. It was dropping off anyway. Mk3 just didn't get people involved enough. And again, removal of the press gangers sucked out a lot of the enthusiasm that remained. Plus by this point the game was so big and bloated and unwieldy the 'burden of knowledge' required versus the payoff was just simply not worth the hassle. A further point was the community itself had etwnched around a hardcore of players who were adamant about a single expression of the game and if it wasn't 75pts steamroller, it was gtfo. There was no casual scene. There was no grass leagues. This has admittedly changed because of a community project (not a pp one) called brawlmachine but its arguably too little too late (best of luck to them though!)

Add to that was the gw renaissance at this time. Like it or not gw turned a corner and were doing gangbusters on so many fronts around then. Combine pp's misteps with gw stepping up their game and that's only going one way.

**Sim-Life**

vipoid wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

Basically what was quoted above.
Themes, CID and axing the Press Ganger system were the big hits IMO.

Theme became monolists. You had to buy three copies of a monopose unit that PP overcharged for as well as 3 solos and you basically couldn't use any of these models in any other list in the faction. Its like if GW announced that for 10th Edition your Space Marine army could only take all Devestators or all Tacticals or all Intercessors and if you do you 500pts free to spend on more of the same marines and they get some extra universal rules. You don't HAVE to take those but then you don't get the extra 500pts and extra rules.

The CID was a mess. They'd only do one faction at a time so everything was uneven and they did them at a very slow place. They often straight up ignored feedback (which was often dubious at best in fairness) and ended up doing whatever they wanted anyway. For a game where learning the opponents rules is fairly important having them all constantly in flux was a pain.

Killing Press Gangers basically killed any incentive people had to run tournaments or intro games so the presence at FLGSs basically dried up.

**kodos**

WM/H became with MK3 what 40k was at the end of 7th

don't know who thought it was a good idea to copy&paste the worst of GW to become as popular (could be the designers or the community)

**Tyel**

To echo everyone else, I feel themes was the big one.

If the mood had been different it might have encouraged people to add new units (even if stacking multiple copies of monopose models is hardly attractive). Instead a lot of people just decided having their collection cut into non-functional bits was a good time to call it quits. Sure themes wasn't mandatory - but its like say formations wasn't mandatory in 7th. You were just destroyed.

I also feel the quality of PP's mini output also collapsed (if you could even get hold of it) compared with GW's post-Deathwatch Overkill releases.

**Sim-Life**

kodos wrote:
WM/H became with MK3 what 40k was at the end of 7th

don't know who thought it was a good idea to copy&paste the worst of GW to become as popular (could be the designers or the community)

I've heard a lot of rumours about the PP upper management basically being a bunch of egotistical babies who don't like being told they're ideas aren't the best ever. That isn't a dig at Jason Soles' haircut. Mostly. GW is at least publically owned so they're actually answerable to someone other than their friends who are equally stupid.

**AnomanderRake**

kodos wrote:
WM/H became with MK3 what 40k was at the end of 7th

don't know who thought it was a good idea to copy&paste the worst of GW to become as popular (could be the designers or the community)

Weirdly one of the most complained-about things about the Mk3 launch was the removal of all the theme forces ("alternate detachments", "formations") that characterized the end of 7th. GW's been taking a lot more from Warmachine than Warmachine ever took back from 40k.

**Hecaton**

Sim-Life wrote:
Pacific wrote:
You'll probably find some of the Infinity minis are old line miniatures that have been replaced or not even valid in the game any more (some Combined Army options for example). I'm not sure if CB asks for the miniatures back once they get superseded (or stores aren't able to do this) as I've noticed a lot of FLGS have that kind of stuff in their bargain bins.

This is the reason I asked. Most mini companies will lets FLGSs discount their models if the rules they put in with them become obsolete or get a resculpt. Both Infinity and Malifaux have had new editions in the last few years. Framing them allowing FLGSs to discount the minis because they're obsolete as the games being unpopular or inferior to 40k is disingenuous.

Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

Yeah, plus, depending on what they are, they might actually be chase. If someone's got a box of the old CA X-Drones in there it's worth MONEY.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sim-Life wrote:
kodos wrote:
WM/H became with MK3 what 40k was at the end of 7th

don't know who thought it was a good idea to copy&paste the worst of GW to become as popular (could be the designers or the community)

I've heard a lot of rumours about the PP upper management basically being a bunch of egotistical babies who don't like being told they're ideas aren't the best ever. That isn't a dig at Jason Soles' haircut. Mostly. GW is at least publically owned so they're actually answerable to someone other than their friends who are equally stupid.

Jason Soles might have been the most sane of the bunch (despite his choice of hairstyle), he just really wanted the setting to be a horror game with deprotagonized human factions and that just doesn't work for a miniatures game with multiple factions you play.

Matt Wilson, so the rumors go, really didn't give a toss about miniature gaming, and wanted to break into Hollywood, so was living in LA trying to do that (and failing miserably), but insisted that all major decisions go through him, which made the company incredibly inefficient and the guy calling the shots was out of touch because he wasn't even there.

**aphyon**

Sim-Life wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

Basically what was quoted above.
Themes, CID and axing the Press Ganger system were the big hits IMO.

Theme became monolists. You had to buy three copies of a monopose unit that PP overcharged for as well as 3 solos and you basically couldn't use any of these models in any other list in the faction. Its like if GW announced that for 10th Edition your Space Marine army could only take all Devestators or all Tacticals or all Intercessors and if you do you 500pts free to spend on more of the same marines and they get some extra universal rules. You don't HAVE to take those but then you don't get the extra 500pts and extra rules.

The CID was a mess. They'd only do one faction at a time so everything was uneven and they did them at a very slow place. They often straight up ignored feedback (which was often dubious at best in fairness) and ended up doing whatever they wanted anyway. For a game where learning the opponents rules is fairly important having them all constantly in flux was a pain.

Killing Press Gangers basically killed any incentive people had to run tournaments or intro games so the presence at FLGSs basically dried up.

Except no, MKIII is probably the best version the game has ever been with a few key exceptions* i have been getting in more games of WM/H is the last year than i have in the past 3 before that
I have a thread in their forum section on dakka where i post multiple battle reports nearly every week.

here are the problems

*
1 the players (most, not all) who started with MK I & II are the hardcore competition players and are effectively a toxic community that chases new players away from the game (one of the reasons i avoided the game until MK III)

2. loss of the press gangers was something that killed promotion and support for the game at a local level but it was legally forced onto PP so it wasn't something they could have avoided

3.WM/H exploded as an alternate game when 40k was in the gutter because of how bad 6th edition was doing. it was around at the right time to take advantage of the situation

4.distribution issues-this started pre-covid and only got worse. it is a tiny company and with the owners looking to retire and sell in recent years it really has become a major issue. i fortunately live like an hour away from the headquarters of the company so getting product is not an issue here.

5.CID and theme lists. yes, it took too long to finish CID and that caused some problems but overall, it has improved the game now that it is basically done. on the matter of theme lists and the steamroller (tournament) game types-that is entirely a problem because of point 1. you do not need to do either to have a fun and engaging game. nobody in our active group uses either of these things and i think that is a reason why the game is so much more fun.

This of course has nothing to do worth where GW is at now. people may still be buying plastic crack from GW but i hardly ever see people playing 9th at the FLGS. the players that do are probably off getting leg humped to buy more by GW staff up the road at the GW store a few miles away.

**Sim-Life**

Did I say the game was bad? And again asking a community that focussed heavily on the competitive side of the game to not play theme lists is much the same as saying "just get a new group". Except with an even smaller community. Which is besides the point because axing the Press Ganger system and enforcing themes killed the entire community across the whole country. So you know, theres that small issue.

**Cyel**

vipoid wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

Absurd barriers of entry: atrocious prices, rules bloat, communities being adamant that big point tournament games are the only games to be played. Players leaving (which is always normal) were not replaced by new ones. Greedy PP added to it by making their product as inaccesible as it gets.

WM actualy enjoys a very minor reviwal with the new, small points format, Brawlmachine, becoming popular. Still an extremely niche, but VERY good game, several lengths ahead of WH40K.

For details check the Privateer Press section of Dakka and "the state of Warmahordes" discussion.

**vipoid**

Thanks for the replies regarding WmH, all. Very insightful.

**Blndmage**

Cyel wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

Absurd barriers of entry: atrocious prices, rules bloat, communities being adamant that big point tournament games are the only games to be played. Players leaving (which is always normal) were not replaced by new ones. Greedy PP added to it by making their product as inaccesible as it gets.

You just described the current issue with the competitive community. I've been trying to push for a 1,000 pont Tourney circuit, since it's a valid format for competitive, it's just as valid as 2k games, but the community does nothing but rip the idea to shreds.

**jeff white**

I enjoyed low point games of ninth Ed sans cp and stratagems etc. I watched a lot of 2000 pt games with all the bells and whistles. Did not see the attraction. Getting people to change anything is difficult… I certainly applaud the effort. Makes sense to me. Low pt games are more fun imho. Plus people complain about time, trying to get more games in and so on… smaller games solves those problems.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Communities will play the games they want to play the way they want to play them, assuming of course they find like-minded folks. Its that whole freedom thing.

Our group has five 40K tourneys a year. One of them is at 1000 points and is aimed at new players. We can fit four games in a day and it is also a spur for folks to build a new army. On the other hand, Incursion missions are like a knife-fight in a phone booth. They can also be quite unbalanced/swingy - I find 1500 is the sweet spot for a three-round event. Still, a change of pace can be fun. Maybe try to run an Incursion tourney and see what happens?

Whatever format we go with, though, our 40K tourneys sell out in hours. Flames of War and Bolt Action can get half the numbers once or twice a year (I used to TO the Flames games and we relied on out of town folks to to get to get there). Haven't seen a Warmachine tourney round these parts since 2017. All that to say, our own 40K tourney ecosystem is doing just fine.

**Blackie**

Blndmage wrote:
Cyel wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:
Except WmH. That game is actually dead.

What happened to WmH?

Mark 2 seemed really popular but then Mark 3 appeared to just collapse overnight.

Absurd barriers of entry: atrocious prices, rules bloat, communities being adamant that big point tournament games are the only games to be played. Players leaving (which is always normal) were not replaced by new ones. Greedy PP added to it by making their product as inaccesible as it gets.

You just described the current issue with the competitive community. I've been trying to push for a 1,000 pont Tourney circuit, since it's a valid format for competitive, it's just as valid as 2k games, but the community does nothing but rip the idea to shreds.

To be fair 1000 points is a very different game than 2000 points, by a large margin, and competitively lists are extremely different than 2000 ones so those people who can fairly play competitive 2000 points game might have to get a lot of new stuff to play 1000 points at the same level of competitiveness and it might be a barrier to invest in some models just to play a format that isn't the most common one. Many players also don't like the very small tables.

Try the 1500 points format instead, which is my favorite choice. It's not really different than 2000, also in terms of listbuilding, but with less overcrowded tables.

**Dolnikan**

One 'issue' I can imagine with smaller games, aside from getting less stuff and the smaller tables, is with the Command Point system where many armies will feel like they have barely any to feed some units. Of course, that would make things less extreme in some regards, but at the same time, it means that only a rare few stratagems would still see use.

**Lord Damocles**

Dolnikan wrote:
One 'issue' I can imagine with smaller games, aside from getting less stuff and the smaller tables, is with the Command Point system where many armies will feel like they have barely any to feed some units. Of course, that would make things less extreme in some regards, but at the same time, it means that only a rare few stratagems would still see use.

Oh no.
How terrible.

**Backspacehacker**

You know, looking back at this if i could actually give a better answer of "What should 40k be" I would say it SHOULD be this.

"A gaming system designed to reenact both thematic and dramatic battles of the 41st millennia."

With the idea being the game is not meant to be competitive, but rather narrative and filled with dramatic over the top battles with less focus on winning and loosing and more focus on narrative outcomes of games and thematic outcoms of games. To quote one of the old guard i used t play with who was in the hobby since basically day one, "Oh i dont care about what wins and what looses, i just care about what i think would end up looking cool if it were in a book or a movie." and this was the mantra i tried to follow, so every opportunity to had to take a challenge it was taken, any time i could do death or glory, it was go time.

If i could say what 40k should be, it should be that, and balanced around that idea of having those types of engagements, and units should be balanced around that in mind, no around the idea of tournament pushing and metas.