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Tallonian4th wrote: I find it strange people are seeing this as some big FOMO conspiracy when it's pretty normal for other model kit companies. I'm amazed that GW keep so many items in permanent stock it must be a night mare. Compare this to Airfix for example who have approximately 1,600 tools and currently have only about 240 lines on sale. GW on the other hand have 907 items currently listed as for sale on the GW store alone and that ignores FW. There must be many kits they only sell small amount of and it makes sense to concentrate those sales for slow selling items to free up resources for constant selling staples. Again using Airfix as an example you will always be able to buy a Spitfire or Lancaster from them but a Whirlwind or Stirling will only be rotated in and out of availability (sometimes for years at a time).
Sure they do... although they have 5 publications no rules and no game attached as far as I can see.
Point being GW rulesets publications games is a huge business for GW and the game is to be played today with the relevant tokens minis it needs.
If this was just Modelling kits for display and collectors items fair enough its a contained kit.
Its Like airfix would sell you the Stirling but just some sprues since the remaining, needed sprues, would be on a rotation period. You cant assemble the kit and 40k cant be played.
Well it can, people are clever to adapt convert etc... it just got a lot harder.
I find this amazing that GW acknowledged they reached saturation point... yet Production capacity has increased... Keep on churning more of the primaris in all the rainbow colours and in some cases with DOUBLE skus (regiment multipart box set) and ( easy build sprues on starters and deals)
Imagine If Eldar did not got some plastic sugar recently and were stuck to the old finecast and metals? Rotating eldar.
You don't need these exact models to play the game though. If they were, for example, rotating Knights but still allowed you to use them, I would get it, as those models would be hard to replace/convert in a fitting matter, and thus make it far harder to get appropriate models to use in game.
But Space Marine special characters are some of the easiest things to convert/kitbash, hell you don't even have to specifically be trying to convert the special character to have an appropriate model. Just say "This Watch Captain with a power sword is Artemis" and the vast majority of people won't bat an eye.
Sorry to say this, but if you think these characters are the only things going into the Rotating mode, then thats not the case. According with what they said, these are only the first ones...
*The first miniatures to cycle out are a range of Space Marines named characters and units.*
Theres more to come and some may be or not easy to convert if thats your main pickle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/11 17:01:44
Hey, works for Disney. Clearly stuff they get next to no sales on, they can rest them and then do a MTO run down the line to create FOMO.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
JohnnyHell wrote: Hey, works for Disney. Clearly stuff they get next to no sales on, they can rest them and then do a MTO run down the line to create FOMO.
Question would be did this work for GWLotr? I have not followed it for years now.
According to GW this is a thing with Lotr... anyone here knows if this is still a popular game range?
But Space Marine special characters are some of the easiest things to convert/kitbash, hell you don't even have to specifically be trying to convert the special character to have an appropriate model. Just say "This Watch Captain with a power sword is Artemis" and the vast majority of people won't bat an eye.
Not to mention the plethora of 3rd party developers who are more than willing to design new versions of these models and/or provide bits for.
Well I can imagine this being frustrating if you want something for a new project and find that its just been rotated out. Most people aren't going to hunt for things or buy them on the off chance they might want to pick up a model at some unknown point in the future.
Hopefully the number of rotated models is limited and doesn't really impact much other than a few special and older character models. I've no idea how this has impacted LOTR. Anybody care to share their experience of how it works for that game?
JohnnyHell wrote: Hey, works for Disney. Clearly stuff they get next to no sales on, they can rest them and then do a MTO run down the line to create FOMO.
Question would be did this work for GWLotr? I have not followed it for years now.
According to GW this is a thing with Lotr... anyone here knows if this is still a popular game range?
Yes, it's been happening for a few years now and is perfectly fine. When things rotate, it's usually seconday characters or bits that are used historically. Never core characters and units and the ranges still run perfectly fine.
JohnnyHell wrote: Hey, works for Disney. Clearly stuff they get next to no sales on, they can rest them and then do a MTO run down the line to create FOMO.
Question would be did this work for GWLotr? I have not followed it for years now. According to GW this is a thing with Lotr... anyone here knows if this is still a popular game range?
LotR is a bit different because a lot of the stuff that was rotated back in was previously just binned off without this sort of organised "we might bring it back into circulation" treatment. Instead GW decided to start rotating them in and out when they realised there was still a fanbase for MESBG. Naturally, it was taken a lot more positively because not many people likely had any expectation of that stuff coming back.
I see the narrative's shifting just as expected. Now we're going from, "GW would NEVER squat Firstborn!" and into the "Um it was obviously going to happen eventually, it's YOUR fault for not seeing it coming!" mode eh?
Unfortunately the "narrative" exists entirely within your head here. I've yet to see anyone claim that firstborn marines would be sold indefinitely, only disagree that they would be binned immediately as some have been claiming since 2017.
I have however seen many people claim that Firstborn would be dropped in the 8.5 marine codex, then the 9E codex, and so on...
Nonsense. You don't have to go back a year for every other Primaris discussing having people say "No way are GW squatting Firstborn." I've said a few times on these threads that's how the defence would swing. I'll throw "Well if you want to use Firstborn you can always play 30k" to my next prediction in a few years.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/02/11 18:03:11
But Space Marine special characters are some of the easiest things to convert/kitbash, hell you don't even have to specifically be trying to convert the special character to have an appropriate model. Just say "This Watch Captain with a power sword is Artemis" and the vast majority of people won't bat an eye.
Not to mention the plethora of 3rd party developers who are more than willing to design new versions of these models and/or provide bits for.
Yeah thats the big positive side of this announcement. Not sure if that was what GW had in mind.
No rules, no models are out of the window. I wonder what will be GW store tournament policy regarding other companies proxies of minis they currently have on the Rotating loop. Legal right?
Edit: Well if its working for LOTR, even if expectations are different there, then this may work for 40k...
I think Kroot should be next on the list since no one plays them right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/11 17:52:56
To be honest, I’ve been expecting them to do something likes this for a while now. I also reckon that the pandemic has likely delayed implementing the changes but also highlighted the need for them.
I work in marketing for retail business and just before the pandemic started, I remember reading a pitch document for a data analysis/consultancy firm that mentioned Games Workshop as being a recent client. They were using them as a case study that they’d just started working together to consult on how best to streamline, manage and maintain such a large SKU count given the unique challenges of a business like GW & the typical product lifecycle. Wonder if this is in part an output of that, or something they’ve devised themselves.
It's almost like adding new stuff instead of resculpting old stuff and trying to keep all the old stuff in production is causing problems for manufacturing as well as problems for datasheet bloat.
Moria, for example, seems to be missing a sizeable chunk of their range. Basically all of their goblin variants are missing, for example.
Some of which are coming back this weekend - WarCom
Those aren't Prowlers or Blackshields. That is one generic shaman and some metal goblin warriors which are useful for goblin captains. Well, the sword and shield ones are.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
WarhammerCommunity wrote:They'll just be leaving the range for a while, but they'll return in the future, most likely alongside a relevant release such as a new Codex or Campaign Book. It is of course possible some of these heroes could return as updated models in future too.
Nope not bothered by this. I mean GW gave up on 'everything from the dawn of time in stock forever (in Nottingham)' but around 2011, and we've seen terrain kits, IG metals and other models disappearing all the time. I too am very skeptical about these ever coming back, but that's fine.
No reasonable person can expect a toy company to keep everything in production forever, and others pointed out, 3D printers go BRRRRR.
Rune Priest. If I remember correctly a bunch of Space Wolf stuff got released just before 2nd edition, thus possibly making it the only RT era model still being sold.
I'm wrong. You can still get the original servitors.
Point of information! Those are not the original servitors. The originals came out with the original Rogue Trader adventurers. Those are the late RT servitors who came out with the SW Iron Priest at the same time as the Rune Priest. But yeah, both from 1993ish.
It'll be a mess if any of this stuff becomes good competitively before they bring it back. But I suspect that won't happen - and, if it does, they'll bring it back to great fanfare.
This is likely an effort to sell some stuff that's sitting around by leveraging FOMO IMO; there's not enough being rotated to suggest it's really about inventory management. If it goes well they'll keep doing it for other stuff they have that's sitting around not selling; if it doesn't I would expect this to quietly not happen again. There's a reason they're starting with the most popular faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/11 20:12:29
I don't think that's a conspiracy theory. The moment the first Primaris Marines got released it felt to me like that's the Marines GW wants to sell from now on and build a huge range for those like the old Marines have/had. They made a lot of money from Marines and getting a second chance to do the same all over again is rare. They can't mess this up like the somewhat rocky start of AOS. I haven't paid attention to every release but how many new old-style Marines have been released for the main GW game since Primaris showed up? I can't really remember any. That combined with me not keeping up with all GW released might mean that some slipped through that I overlooked but it seems 100% clear to me that GW wants to remove old style Marines if possible. If all they release are Primaris, what value is there in the old Marines for them (GW, not customers who bought them), besides having to deal with the after effects of that switch from old to new?
The big issue they have is probably the rules, in that long term collectors have huge legacy collections. My guess is that they'll want to get Primaris Marines established enough (from a sales perspective) so that people are invested and then slowly push out old style Marines out of the main game by giving them less exciting rules until they can be finally shoved off to some sort of 41st century version of the Forgeworld HH rules (or some legacy vehicle rules for HH era tanks). Then old style Marines will be more like an exotic choice while all Primaris armies will be the standard Marines.
The only reason its happening slowly is because Marine buyers are a huge chunk of their customer base. Otherwise old Marines would have been swept aside like Squats the moment the Primaris range was big enough to stand on their own (as in: be a viable army).
"They're not being squated, they're being rotated out, it's completely different you salty doomsayers!!!"
Sure if you say something repeatedly for years it should eventually happen.
I fully expect one day as the asteroid looms overhead someone will rush to Dakka Dakka and triumphantly post "I was right! GW stopped selling the old marines!"
of course these are explicitly returning at some point later, so no dice today
I see the narrative's shifting just as expected. Now we're going from, "GW would NEVER squat Firstborn!" and into the "Um it was obviously going to happen eventually, it's YOUR fault for not seeing it coming!" mode eh?
I'm not the person you replied to but it felt to me from the Primaris start that they are supposed to be the new Marines and the old-style ones' best bet for survival in a few years is as some sort of exotic option or as some sort of "counts-as" for Primaris units. Squatting Squats so easily was possible because they were such a tiny range for GW and not their main money maker. I explained my theory in the paragraphs above. You simply can't cut off GW's main money maker and expect to still make GW sized bags of money every year.
Old style Marines won't disappear overnight (probably never, there's too many of them) but I expect that in a few years (in like two 40K editions) they'll be more of an afterthought. With the game being designed around Primaris, all other armies will be designed to work (aesthetically and mechanically) in accordance with them. If legacy Marines aren't somehow killed off in the lore with some sort of virus that targets them directly (maybe something like FOXDIE from the Metal Gear series) then they might get made inconvenient to keep around without technically being squatted, maybe tolerated at best because so many people invested a lot of money in those miniatures and you can't cut these legacy Marines off that easily without causing some huge negative PR storm.
That's probably the line of miniatures that grew GW into the juggernaut they are today and the line that kept GW out of deeper trouble when they were not doing so well after the LOTR bubble. They won't get literally squatted but they will get sent to the 40K equivalent of the the kids' table with exotic and/or unconventional armies that nobody really uses anymore. They will get as close as squatted as possible without technically being squatted.
WarhammerCommunity wrote:It is of course possible some of these heroes could return as updated models in future too.
Doesn't this part contradict things a bit? "These models will be returning, unless they don't and they just get replaced"?
To me the idea seems to be that they will over time remove all kinda of old miniatures, especially anything that's not plastic. And if/when a new codex or army book is released where some of them may be needed then they might re-release the old one or make a new one in plastic (I'm betting on "new plastic one" every time) so that the codex entry is not left behind without a miniature. My guess is that they will first remove all the non-plastic miniatures. Then they can set up some sort of new/modern legacy production corner where they can manufacture those if needed — after having made a calculation of "re-release old plastic/resin miniature vs. make a new plastic one".
Of course it might also be PR speak for slowly removing all these old miniatures that probably don't sell well but have a codex entry. It might simply be more streamlined/efficient for them to remake them all in plastic when the miniature is finally needed again (whenever that moment in time happens) but that it's a hassle to keep them available right now. In short: They are gone but only for now.
It's simply easier to say that they will be gone soon and might come back if needed but that you can make new versions (which actually might be the preferable option for GW) than to say that they will be ruthlessly cutting old (metal/resin) miniatures that don't sell much anyways and are collecting dust. GW does have a reputation for keeping a lot of old miniatures and only cutting them off once a new version was released. This feels like their next step into a plastic only future, and to connect it to the other parts I quoted and replied to: A plastic and Primaris only future (at least for Marines).
Tallonian4th wrote: I find it strange people are seeing this as some big FOMO conspiracy when it's pretty normal for other model kit companies. I'm amazed that GW keep so many items in permanent stock it must be a night mare. Compare this to Airfix for example who have approximately 1,600 tools and currently have only about 240 lines on sale. GW on the other hand have 907 items currently listed as for sale on the GW store alone and that ignores FW. There must be many kits they only sell small amount of and it makes sense to concentrate those sales for slow selling items to free up resources for constant selling staples. Again using Airfix as an example you will always be able to buy a Spitfire or Lancaster from them but a Whirlwind or Stirling will only be rotated in and out of availability (sometimes for years at a time).
The thing is, GW is the one making a big deal about it. They retire things regularly already. They've been doing this practice for years already - and its part of why Made To Order is popular.
I'm just hoping the next wave includes Centurions.
WarhammerCommunity wrote:It is of course possible some of these heroes could return as updated models in future too.
Doesn't this part contradict things a bit? "These models will be returning, unless they don't and they just get replaced"?
It wasn't artfully put but I think what they mean is literally what they said - they said heroes, not models. None of these heroes will disappear permanently - some will rotate in again at some point, but more likely, they will all eventually reappear as plastic Primaris (for $40 each presumably).
Tallonian4th wrote: I find it strange people are seeing this as some big FOMO conspiracy when it's pretty normal for other model kit companies. I'm amazed that GW keep so many items in permanent stock it must be a night mare. Compare this to Airfix for example who have approximately 1,600 tools and currently have only about 240 lines on sale. GW on the other hand have 907 items currently listed as for sale on the GW store alone and that ignores FW. There must be many kits they only sell small amount of and it makes sense to concentrate those sales for slow selling items to free up resources for constant selling staples. Again using Airfix as an example you will always be able to buy a Spitfire or Lancaster from them but a Whirlwind or Stirling will only be rotated in and out of availability (sometimes for years at a time).
The thing is, GW is the one making a big deal about it. They retire things regularly already. They've been doing this practice for years already - and its part of why Made To Order is popular.
I'm just hoping the next wave includes Centurions.
Warcom had to write an article so they wrote about this. Slow week or someone in customer service want to bring it up to the customers.
Or its a big conspiracy to hook all these nonexistent FOMO buyers GW is targeting.
Unless the people who are complaining are actually the FOMO buyers and its all projection behind conspiracy theories to justify running to the hobby shop after work today.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/11 20:07:22
But Space Marine special characters are some of the easiest things to convert/kitbash, hell you don't even have to specifically be trying to convert the special character to have an appropriate model. Just say "This Watch Captain with a power sword is Artemis" and the vast majority of people won't bat an eye.
Yeah, I generally only get character models (let alone special ones) in box sets with other stuff. Add fancy bits to regular marine, boom, done.
I did order Artemis off a 3rd party store, because like I said earlier, he's ideal for converting a Xenophase Blade DW captain - I might even give him a jump pack and storm shield just to look cool.
WarhammerCommunity wrote:It is of course possible some of these heroes could return as updated models in future too.
Doesn't this part contradict things a bit? "These models will be returning, unless they don't and they just get replaced"?
It wasn't artfully put but I think what they mean is literally what they said - they said heroes, not models. None of these heroes will disappear permanently - some will rotate in again at some point, but more likely, they will all eventually reappear as plastic Primaris (for $40 each presumably).
The article says "certain miniature kits are removed from circulation for a period, to return at a later date" - so the article says the miniatures themselves are what's rotating and will return, while the reply says maybe one of these disappears and the miniature doesn't come back but the hero gets an updated model instead. Those are two very different things.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Nope not bothered by this. I mean GW gave up on 'everything from the dawn of time in stock forever (in Nottingham)' but around 2011, and we've seen terrain kits, IG metals and other models disappearing all the time. I too am very skeptical about these ever coming back, but that's fine.
No reasonable person can expect a toy company to keep everything in production forever, and others pointed out, 3D printers go BRRRRR.
No thats quite common, many models get discontinued... thats not what GW is saying. They said we cant have these many SKUs we are going to put on hold and in rotation several units, here's the first ones.
This is not your common bye bye old mini, this seems something much wider across the 40k board aiming at both plastics and resins.
They can keep things on codex because officially the unit is not extinct, it's still part of the range, it's just that you cannot buy it.
With the avalanche of new products GW puts up with its a question of time ( apparently we are out of time) for when more minis get into rotation mode.
Besides what will be the determining factor to rotate a unit... age of the kit? Size takes too much space? Popularity? And the scary bit here is, will a range that collides with GW new marketing plan be considered too?
I think this is heading more towards a model where they release an Indomitus for 1 month and then split easy build sprues into 2 pricy bundles on another month... to finish off by putting them on rotation mode, to give space for the next boxset coming in. We are not far from that already.
Moria, for example, seems to be missing a sizeable chunk of their range. Basically all of their goblin variants are missing, for example.
The factions that don't take center stage tend to be the ones that fall behind on models with the following factions missing models from the range (specifically LotR as I don't have armies of the Hobbit and can't check that):
Spoiler:
Good The Shire - Bilbo, Bandobras Took
Numenor - Numenorian Captain (although this unit is indistinguishable from regular Warriors)
Minas Tirith - King of Men
The Fiefdoms - Captain of Dol Amroth (again, easily replaceable with a foot Knight)
Arnor - Arvedui, Malbeth, Captain, Warrior
Wildmen - Ghan-Buri-Ghan, Woses
Rivendell - Lindir, Cirdan, Gildor
Lothlorien - Rumil
Khazad Dum - Dwarf King
Wanderers in the Wild - Murin, Drar
40 unit entries don't have model representation in GW's range (with a couple that can easily be proxied/converted) out of 267 unit profiles in the Armies of LotR book (if my maths is correct).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/11 20:48:43
I don't think that's a conspiracy theory. The moment the first Primaris Marines got released it felt to me like that's the Marines GW wants to sell from now on and build a huge range for those like the old Marines have/had. They made a lot of money from Marines and getting a second chance to do the same all over again is rare. They can't mess this up like the somewhat rocky start of AOS. I haven't paid attention to every release but how many new old-style Marines have been released for the main GW game since Primaris showed up? I can't really remember any. That combined with me not keeping up with all GW released might mean that some slipped through that I overlooked but it seems 100% clear to me that GW wants to remove old style Marines if possible. If all they release are Primaris, what value is there in the old Marines for them (GW, not customers who bought them), besides having to deal with the after effects of that switch from old to new?
And yet, why?
Seriously, why would GW squat Old Marines when GW can get people to buy both Primaris and Old Marines at the same time? You are right that Primaris are to sell Marines to veteran Marines players that no longer buy Old Marines, but that doesn't necessitate removing Old Marines, specially when new Marine players that lack Old Marines will likely buy both Old Marines and Primaris Marines.
Personally, the only way I can such squatting ever happening is if GW merges Primaris and Old Marines equivalent units to reduce unit bloat.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/02/11 20:50:40
Tallonian4th wrote: I find it strange people are seeing this as some big FOMO conspiracy when it's pretty normal for other model kit companies. I'm amazed that GW keep so many items in permanent stock it must be a night mare. Compare this to Airfix for example who have approximately 1,600 tools and currently have only about 240 lines on sale. GW on the other hand have 907 items currently listed as for sale on the GW store alone and that ignores FW. There must be many kits they only sell small amount of and it makes sense to concentrate those sales for slow selling items to free up resources for constant selling staples. Again using Airfix as an example you will always be able to buy a Spitfire or Lancaster from them but a Whirlwind or Stirling will only be rotated in and out of availability (sometimes for years at a time).
The thing is, GW is the one making a big deal about it. They retire things regularly already. They've been doing this practice for years already - and its part of why Made To Order is popular.
I'm just hoping the next wave includes Centurions.
Right but they typically do it only for terrain, when replacing a product, or when squatting something. All cases where fans are seemingly not as invested given the usual muted level of irritation when any of those three things happen. But if they are going to start removing models, especially iconic (if not high selling) characters or plastic kits then fans will notice.
I'm guessing this is partially to prime fans for future retiring of kits that aren't selling or are being functionally replaced in order to reduce backlash.
I think people tend to underestimate how badly fans react to things which are unexpected. So warning them, "hey we're rotating models you care about now" will temper the response to an expected disappointment rather than a confused rage.
Fomo pump n dump churn.
Leave some things permanently in the bin of history, lost in the warp of churn noise.
With price increases, … well, 3D printers are getting cheaper by the day so… crossing a rubicon indeed.
I never got around to painting that rune priest model, and now it's rotated out. When I do finish it there will be a nice spot next to my Space Wolves Executioner Tank for it to sit.
I have so many outdated GW models at this point that them expiring or shelving a few more doesn't phase me anymore.
Those are not the original servitors. The originals came out with the original Rogue Trader adventurers. Those are the late 
