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SemperMortis wrote:
Gotta be honest, i'm loving the complains about D3+3 and D3+2 etc weapons. I was promised when this edition came out with Multi-melta's doing D6+2 and D6+4 that everyone's weapons would follow suit. What did we get for the Ork equivalent? D3 rokkitz...but they became heavy instead of assault....on a weapon system with 24' range and the #1 unit that uses the weapon doesn't ignore the -1 to hit, nor is there any realistic mechanic to mitigate it

Cruddace must have lost to an ork player and pitched a hissy-fit lol


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 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Shootas should just be assault 4, orks don’t aim, that’s why they’re bs 5+. You could also reduce dice and just have assault s5 or something because unlike bolters ork guns do actually fire massive bullets. I like the 5+ bs, I just don’t like gw not statting/pricing guns equivalently for it.

Yeah you can make it work, and you've got a faction then that cares a lot about hit modifiers (since losing half your potential from a -1 to hit is significant). It's just that GW doesn't want to do the work, and seems to balance Ork units specifically on the "what if you rolled max shots, max damage, and all your shots hit?" level.

That reason is why I kinda liked how orks uniquely had 6’s always hit, could have been interesting honestly if orks just never worried about modifiers, they’re not aiming, so them hitting is morks will anyways. It is funny that the one thing that orks need to balance em is the one thing that they can’t do: math.

Tyel wrote:
Its just bad maths.

To a degree there's a form follows function. Shoota Boyz have better assault than regular troops - so probably need to have "bad" shooting potential. But the result is just a bad unit. (The most latest modern equivelent is Storm Guardians - who are not a viable assault unit with 2 S3 AP1 attacks at 8 points.)

But really, the sickness I feel with Orks is in their purity bonus. Speedwaaagh should have somehow counted for all "shooty" infantry. Or there should have been some sort of "Dakkawaaagh" for these units. So... yeah. The Codex is telling you "don't take these".

Except that isn't true anymore. Space Marines have default 2 attacks each now, their primaris bros have 3 attacks each. So 2 base attacks at S4 isn't much to write home about...especially since they screwed over the entire point of shoota boyz to begin with. This is one of hte reasons why I say GW doesn't know wtf they are doing with orkz. They created dakka weapons, made shootas a Dakka weapon instead of assault...the entire point of Shootas was you could soften up targets WAY BACK in 4th with some 6s to hit assault weapons, then bum rush in with 2 attacks base, 3 for charging, so you hit ALMOST as hard as choppa boyz but 1 fewer attacks.

Now? You lost advance and shoot, the dmg absolutely did not scale up. Think about that, S4 boyz with 3 attacks at -1AP don't feel that impressive, so why would 2 S4 no AP ranged shots seem ok in an edition with all the new troops getting ridiculous upgrades? Tau getting +6 range and -1AP on their S5 weapons for no real points increase compared to SHoota boyz going to T5 but gaining nothing for ranged combat...actually losing some thanks to DDD getting removed from the game.

Would be nice like I said if GW would hire someone who knows orkz and understands them rather then it being an after thought by a SM player or a Space Elf player with an inferiority complex from that one time they got spanked by orkz.

The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

 Ordana wrote:
The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

At one point, gw didn't even have a studio army of Orks. Don't know if they do now or not.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

At one point, gw didn't even have a studio army of Orks. Don't know if they do now or not.

Oh man, is that true? Oof.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also think all shooty Orks should be BS4.

Unfortunately Orky BS is a brain bug that got stuck in GW's minds many editions ago and never went away. Now all Orks are bad shots, even the ones that dedicate themselves to shooting.

Makes no sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also think all shooty Orks should be BS4.

Unfortunately Orky BS is a brain bug that got stuck in GW's minds many editions ago and never went away. Now all Orks are bad shots, even the ones that dedicate themselves to shooting.

Makes no sense.

The irony is that they even contradict themselves with this mentality with the exceptions already shown in the codex, like Big Meks having 4+ BS and Flash Gitz being BS4+, so it's not like Orks can't have it, they're just too lazy to implement it effectively.

Hecaton wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

It'd only be fair.

It wouldn't do anything but turn the codex entry into multiple pages to cover what would be allowed. It isn't like you only get a single plasma rifle in the crisis kit, you get three. Same with all of their other weapons. So how do you possibly write the unit entry to disallow someone taking the spare guns from one kit and adding them to a different kit? The only ways would be to list every possible loadout you can make from a single kit and also limit crisis teams to only being able to have 3 models, or to come up with some weird "you cannot have more plasma rifles, burst cannons, missile pods etc. in the unit than you have crisis suits" rule.

You think the plague marine unit entry is awful? A crisis suit can have 3 of the same gun, 2 of the same and a 3rd different, or all 3 different. The crisis kit comes with 3 burst cannons, flamers, plasma rifles, missile pods, and fusion blasters. That means, going off what is available in only one box, there are 35 possible unique loadouts for a single crisis suit.

Crisis teams are, as a unit, possibly the most flexible unit in the game when it comes to equipment loadout, even when you limit them to what is only in their box.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Oh boy, one of them suggested nerfing Crisis Suits by doing the "what's in the box" loadout. I'm shocked he doesn't work for GW already!

It'd only be fair.

It wouldn't do anything but turn the codex entry into multiple pages to cover what would be allowed. It isn't like you only get a single plasma rifle in the crisis kit, you get three. Same with all of their other weapons. So how do you possibly write the unit entry to disallow someone taking the spare guns from one kit and adding them to a different kit? The only ways would be to list every possible loadout you can make from a single kit and also limit crisis teams to only being able to have 3 models, or to come up with some weird "you cannot have more plasma rifles, burst cannons, missile pods etc. in the unit than you have crisis suits" rule.

You think the plague marine unit entry is awful? A crisis suit can have 3 of the same gun, 2 of the same and a 3rd different, or all 3 different. The crisis kit comes with 3 burst cannons, flamers, plasma rifles, missile pods, and fusion blasters. That means, going off what is available in only one box, there are 35 possible unique loadouts for a single crisis suit.

Crisis teams are, as a unit, possibly the most flexible unit in the game when it comes to equipment loadout, even when you limit them to what is only in their box.

This -

This suggesting this is complete nonsense if you ever took a cursory glance at an crisis suit entry.

Also, i don't like it when key units that epitomise the "doctrine" of an army get such a treatment.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

At one point, gw didn't even have a studio army of Orks. Don't know if they do now or not.

Oh man, is that true? Oof.

Take a look at the recent Ork dex, and compare it just in regards to how it "functions" and "ties in with its components" with, say, any other 9th dex, f.e. GSC or Drukhari, or dunno.
The first thing you realise is that the units don't tie into one another, the second thing you realise is that if a unit can not stand on its own merits there's rarely a way to make that unit work.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also think all shooty Orks should be BS4.

Unfortunately Orky BS is a brain bug that got stuck in GW's minds many editions ago and never went away. Now all Orks are bad shots, even the ones that dedicate themselves to shooting.

Makes no sense.

No it makes perfect sense they are Orks. they are more impressed by the load noise and the bright flashes the guns make. the entire point of the football hooligans...er i mean orks was to brawl.

If you want good shooting bring something manned by a grot. besides it isn't like they needed to be good at it, they did just fine in previous editions. i always look forward to our ork players creating all sorts of silliness in our 5th ed games.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

At one point, gw didn't even have a studio army of Orks. Don't know if they do now or not.

Oh man, is that true? Oof.

Completely true, they admitted as much on their facebook page I believe when questioned about why they didn't have a display army for orkz out at an event.

 Grimskul wrote:

The irony is that they even contradict themselves with this mentality with the exceptions already shown in the codex, like Big Meks having 4+ BS and Flash Gitz being BS4+, so it's not like Orks can't have it, they're just too lazy to implement it effectively.

its because again, the Ork codex writers do not play orkz and have no concept of how anything works. Their knowledge feels like its mostly based on bad memes about orkz from decades ago and not much else. 9ppm Troop choice with 2 S4 shots at 18' range or 3 S4 shots at 9' range but hitting on 5s, no advance and shoot and only 1 small way to buff them to BS4. Also, they nerfed hordes to be functionally useless which means you can't even lump 30 of them together and go for the "always counts as half range" strat because its useless on 10 boyz.

 aphyon wrote:

No it makes perfect sense they are Orks. they are more impressed by the load noise and the bright flashes the guns make. the entire point of the football hooligans...er i mean orks was to brawl.
If you want good shooting bring something manned by a grot. besides it isn't like they needed to be good at it, they did just fine in previous editions. i always look forward to our ork players creating all sorts of silliness in our 5th ed games.

Except for the Orkz whose entire purpose on the battlefield is to shoot big guns etc. Lootas sole purpose on the battlefield is to shoot deffguns and loot their destroyed targets to build even bigger guns. Half of them are modeled with targeting equipment on them but for some reason they still hit on 5s, but its ok because they can have piss poor accuracy if they get lots of shots right? Thats why Deffguns (Auto-cannons) have the same number of shots as imperial equivalents...unless we get within half range...because an over priced, paper skinned heavy support choice really really wants to be as close to the enemies small arms as possible...but the added bonus is amazing, its...ready for this? 1 extra shot per gun! WOOOHOO!!! Now instead of being massively over priced, under performing and dying to a stiff breeze they are only heavily overpriced, under performing and die to a stiff breeze. Buts its ok, you can put them in a Trukk to make them more durable! Of course, the trukk is functionally useless and artificially increases their price by another 70pts....oh well.

Nobody who has played orkz for a long time thinks this current codex is at all thought out or smart. We have a couple of competitive builds almost exclusively by accident rather than intent.

 Grimskul wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also think all shooty Orks should be BS4.

Unfortunately Orky BS is a brain bug that got stuck in GW's minds many editions ago and never went away. Now all Orks are bad shots, even the ones that dedicate themselves to shooting.

Makes no sense.

The irony is that they even contradict themselves with this mentality with the exceptions already shown in the codex, like Big Meks having 4+ BS and Flash Gitz being BS4+, so it's not like Orks can't have it, they're just too lazy to implement it effectively.

We really must email GW and get them to errata those exceptions back into line with the rest of the faction.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

At one point, gw didn't even have a studio army of Orks. Don't know if they do now or not.

Oh man, is that true? Oof.

It isn't true.

One time GW said that their studio Ork army wasn't large enough to take to some tournament or other, which was clearly untrue (they have multiple Stompas), and was clearly said because they wanted to take one of the newer codex releases instead.

You can see the studio Ork armies in literally every edition of Codex: Orks.

Well there's some competing stories, heh.

Dunno what to think about that, although i do believe that Orks have generally been underserved.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The quality of a 40k codex seems entirely dependant on if the writer likes the army and sadly for Orks there seems to be no one on the team that looks out for them.

At one point, gw didn't even have a studio army of Orks. Don't know if they do now or not.

Oh man, is that true? Oof.

It isn't true.

One time GW said that their studio Ork army wasn't large enough to take to some tournament or other, which was clearly untrue (they have multiple Stompas), and was clearly said because they wanted to take one of the newer codex releases instead.

You can see the studio Ork armies in literally every edition of Codex: Orks.

Except...it is true




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We even got a campaign together of ork players to send GW models so they could actually have an ork army because christ that is pathetic.

This took place in 2018 btw

There is a big difference between "doesn't have a studio army" and "the studio army isn't 4k of models"

 ClockworkZion wrote:
There is a big difference between "doesn't have a studio army" and "the studio army isn't 4k of models"

Well how much do you believe that when Orks can already bring tons of models, so they could've just said it was "close enough" for display purposes?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
There is a big difference between "doesn't have a studio army" and "the studio army isn't 4k of models"

Well how much do you believe that when Orks can already bring tons of models, so they could've just said it was "close enough" for display purposes?

I'm going to go with the biggest number Orks can count to and say "lotz".

 ClockworkZion wrote:
There is a big difference between "doesn't have a studio army" and "the studio army isn't 4k of models"

There isn't a big difference when they brought out every main army in the game but couldn't muster one for Orkz...one of the original factions for the game. Think about what I just said, they couldn't muster 4k points of Orkz,.....the company that makes the bloody game....couldn't muster 4k points of orkz, in 8th edition, when that Stompa they have in every picture was 1/4th of the requirements. I mean, in fairness they only had 3 decades or so to acquire 4k points of orkz. And its not like Ork armies are all that massive for private collectors, so they couldn't just go to a well known local ork player and use their army. I mean at last check I think I have only about 13,000pts of Orkz without any upgrades.

SemperMortis wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
There is a big difference between "doesn't have a studio army" and "the studio army isn't 4k of models"

There isn't a big difference when they brought out every main army in the game but couldn't muster one for Orkz...one of the original factions for the game. Think about what I just said, they couldn't muster 4k points of Orkz,.....the company that makes the bloody game....couldn't muster 4k points of orkz, in 8th edition, when that Stompa they have in every picture was 1/4th of the requirements. I mean, in fairness they only had 3 decades or so to acquire 4k points of orkz. And its not like Ork armies are all that massive for private collectors, so they couldn't just go to a well known local ork player and use their army. I mean at last check I think I have only about 13,000pts of Orkz without any upgrades.

I think your forgetting that the studio army is painted by the studio team which is not particularly large and has to paint everything that we see on the boxes, on the website, and in the codexes. This means a lot of times they paint one of a unit, maybe more if they decide they need multiple variants of the same unit. As such getting 4k of a horde army they likely have one, maybe two of each unit would be impressive. So yeah, I can get why they don't have 4k of Orks. They likely don't have 4k of Nids either.

 aphyon wrote:
No it makes perfect sense they are Orks. they are more impressed by the load noise and the bright flashes the guns make. the entire point of the football hooligans...er i mean orks was to brawl.

If you want good shooting bring something manned by a grot. besides it isn't like they needed to be good at it, they did just fine in previous editions. i always look forward to our ork players creating all sorts of silliness in our 5th ed games.

In 5th orks also relied heavily on shooting units. Dakka jets, lootas, big guns, kanz, buggies, koptas or shoota boyz were core assets of pretty much every army, none of the particularly great melee units. Choppa boyz were primarily used as trukk boyz or when you simply had too many AOBR boyz, and besides them only other relevant melee units was nobz which had to rely on wound allocation rules that are cursed to this day to be a threat at all.

Orks have not been a melee focused army since 4th edition, count the number of melee units if you don't want to take my word for it.

Posts like yours annoy me to no end, because they clearly show the same complete lack of knowledge and interest as GW' devs display over and over again. The only difference is that you aren't getting paid to pay attention, while they are.



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 Lord Damocles wrote:
It isn't true.

One time GW said that their studio Ork army wasn't large enough to take to some tournament or other, which was clearly untrue (they have multiple Stompas), and was clearly said because they wanted to take one of the newer codex releases instead.

You can see the studio Ork armies in literally every edition of Codex: Orks.

Why are you spreading this misinformation? The army in the codices has been confirmed to be an employee's personal property.

During 8th when this topic came up the studio collection consist of the red and yellow painted models from 7th edition's box arts which was insufficient to form a playable army. There was a call to send GW boyz among the the ork player to ensure that they could at least play orks.

Clearly we didn't sent enough.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:
There is a big difference between "doesn't have a studio army" and "the studio army isn't 4k of models"

Having one of every unit would easily get you to 4k.


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 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think your forgetting that the studio army is painted by the studio team which is not particularly large and has to paint everything that we see on the boxes, on the website, and in the codexes. This means a lot of times they paint one of a unit, maybe more if they decide they need multiple variants of the same unit. As such getting 4k of a horde army they likely have one, maybe two of each unit would be impressive. So yeah, I can get why they don't have 4k of Orks. They likely don't have 4k of Nids either.

Only 10 datasheets in the ork codex have the "mob" keyword, three of those are nobz, manz and flash gits, lootas are often displayed as units of just 5 and we already know that they had two sets of warbikers painted up in their collection at that time, beast snaggas didn't exist yet.

So, essentially those horde units which are so problematic to paint are just boyz, gretchin, storm boyz, burnas, kommadoz and tank bustas.
It's also worth noting that the high investment you have to put into orks to get to a playable army has been criticized multiple times, so GW can't really hide behind something that is in their power to change.

They also painted ten or more primaris units in every color of the rainbow at that time, so there really isn't a good excuse to not paint a hundred or so ork boyz so you can actually play the army you are writing rules for.

The simply truth is that no one at GW cares enough about orks to be bothered by not being able to form a coherent army from them, and you can't excuse that.

 Jidmah wrote:
Why are you spreading this misinformation? The army in the codices has been confirmed to be an employee's personal property.

During 8th when this topic came up the studio collection consist of the red and yellow painted models from 7th edition's box arts which was insufficient to form a playable army. There was a call to send GW boyz among the the ork player to ensure that they could at least play orks.

Confirmed where, Jid?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I think your forgetting that the studio army is painted by the studio team which is not particularly large and has to paint everything that we see on the boxes, on the website, and in the codexes. This means a lot of times they paint one of a unit, maybe more if they decide they need multiple variants of the same unit. As such getting 4k of a horde army they likely have one, maybe two of each unit would be impressive. So yeah, I can get why they don't have 4k of Orks. They likely don't have 4k of Nids either.

Again, Orkz were one of the original factions. So GW has had almost 40 years to paint up 4k points of orkz. 100pts a year is kind of a stretch for them I guess, and as Jidmah pointed out, they had the time to paint up 10-20 of each new primaris Marine and others units.

And as Jidmah also pointed out, very few units in the Ork codex are in fact "mobz" they are usually slightly larger squads than other factions. Lootas come in mobz of up to 15, so 5 more than a Marine tac squad. Burnas/Kommandos/Nobz same thing. Warbikers which in my opinion are a pain in the ass to paint are still limited to (at the time) 15. But also, lets take a look at what GW was pricing ork units at in 8th.

Just the buggies, you know the brand new models they were pushing hard with its own mini-game.
Megatrakk Scrapjet 100pts.
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy 140 pts.
Boomdakka Snazzwagon 100 pts.
Kustom Boostablasta 100 pts.
Shockjump Dragsta 120 pts.
Defkilla Wartrike 120 pts.

So just 1 full squadron of each of these new units (squadrons of 3, you could take up to 9 total in 3 squads). That right there is 2,040pts, or if you just got 1 of each to show off it would have been 680pts. The Stompa was 850pts naked and equipped standard it was closer to 1k points. Killakanz were 40pts each, 50ish with weapons so 1 full squad of them would be 300pts. Wagonz were 120 naked while bonebreakers and Gunswagons were 140pts naked (160+ equipped) and the Nauts were pushing around 250pts each. I can keep going, the point though is that ork squads don't have to be huge nor do you have to show off a horde army, you could just as easily show off a mech army, or the infamous Kan wall or Biker spam.

GW has no excuse not to have 4k points of one of their original armies that has been around since the 80s, nor do they have an excuse not to have at least 1 rules writer on staff who actually understands our faction and can stop them from doing stupid things like creating "Dakka" weapon profiles or making our iconic troop choice functionally useless and our secondary troop choice somehow even worse while at the same time making the "hot new" troop choice just more expensive trash than boyz.

Why should GW have 4k points of Orks? Or any faction?

Believe me, I'm the last person to defend GW, but the studio army is for photographing and showing off, it's not actually meant to be a playable army.
They have 1-2 of every unit painted, when they need to show off large units they copy+paste the same 10 guys multiple times in the photgraphs.

For a horde army, it's easy to see why 1-2 of every unit wouldn't add up to 4k.
And that's okay.

Except they playtest with the studio armies. So it really does matter.

Voss wrote:
Except they playtest with the studio armies. So it really does matter.

GW has, at least based on the WD articles, played with Highlander style lists over the competetive format's "as many fit in a list" approach which is where the external playtesters come in.


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Also the studio army usually sits in Warhammer World on display, and isn't really intended to be played with, so people likely playtest with personal armies or proxies instead.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Voss wrote:
Except they playtest with the studio armies. So it really does matter.

GW has, at least based on the WD articles, played with Highlander style lists over the competetive format's "as many fit in a list" approach which is where the external playtesters come in.


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Also the studio army usually sits in Warhammer World on display, and isn't really intended to be played with, so people likely playtest with personal armies or proxies instead.

And from time to time, they take them out and put little signs up indicating they're out for battle or whatever.

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Voss wrote:
Except they playtest with the studio armies. So it really does matter.

GW has, at least based on the WD articles, played with Highlander style lists over the competetive format's "as many fit in a list" approach which is where the external playtesters come in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the studio army usually sits in Warhammer World on display, and isn't really intended to be played with, so people likely playtest with personal armies or proxies instead.

And from time to time, they take them out and put little signs up indicating they're out for battle or whatever.

I think that's just taking them out to be cleaned and used for marketing shots honestly.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Why should GW have 4k points of Orks? Or any faction?

Believe me, I'm the last person to defend GW, but the studio army is for photographing and showing off, it's not actually meant to be a playable army.
They have 1-2 of every unit painted, when they need to show off large units they copy+paste the same 10 guys multiple times in the photgraphs.

For a horde army, it's easy to see why 1-2 of every unit wouldn't add up to 4k.
And that's okay.

Because it was GW doing a promotion where they brought out their studio armies for Adepticon. So they had Studio armies for every other major faction except Orkz. And again, that includes factions which were new in comparison to Orkz who have been around as long as basically the game has been around. You can still find the old Cardboard Deffdreadz ffs

So why should GW have a studio army? honestly they don't have to. I'm not advocating for them having one, its just a symptom of the problem. GW does not understand orkz because nobody at GW plays orkz. GW writes rules for us but doesn't understand their own creation enough to make it balanced or good. The 9th edition Codex is literally the best since 4th edition, and it was by dumb luck rather than thought out process. They accidentally made some ork things too good while trying to promote what they thought would be good (beast snaggas) who turned out to be garbage

It would just be nice if GW had more interest in writing better rules for orkz so that 2/3rds of our codex isn't in the scrapheap again.