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I wonder, now that we've seen two-three different kits get "upgrade" sprues added to them, is this a viable stratagem going forward for GW? Kits like Chaos Terminators, Havoks, Crisis Suits and Ork Boys could all get a down the road additional sprue with the remaining copies of missing weapons (Chain axes and the like for Terminators, Chain Cannons for Havoks, Ion Blasters and such for Crisis suits, more choppas and shootas for boys). I wonder if that is the game plan going forward for the kits that have been released without the full number of weapon options available?
It could be a way for GW to get themselves out of the corner they've backed themselves into, or a way to introduce more options (focusing on Kill Team).
Cadian - Options that used to be metal or part of the Command Squad kit DKoK & Novitiates - Looks to be just KT / fancy bits (basic squad is on the other two sprues) Pathfinders - Haven't read the new Codex so don't know what options made it Chaos - From the little we've see it looks like a mix of basic options plus some KT stuff
Novitiates have some of their KT only options on the two basic sprues.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/02/24 23:45:19
beast_gts wrote: It could be a way for GW to get themselves out of the corner they've backed themselves into, or a way to introduce more options (focusing on Kill Team).
Cadian - Options that used to be metal or part of the Command Squad kit
DKoK & Novitiates - Looks to be just KT / fancy bits (basic squad is on the other two sprues)
Pathfinders - Haven't read the new Codex so don't know what options made it
Chaos - From the little we've see it looks like a mix of basic options plus some KT stuff
Novitiates have some of their KT only options on the two basic sprues.
This was my feeling. It would be a great way to get full options out and ease restrictions a bit. Depending on how the community reacts, they could start a whole new business of extra bits.
One thing on the Chaos stuff, but the Chaincannon is a big part of that kit given there is only one in the havok kit.
Upgrade Sprues have always existed in one form or another. Heck, back in the good old days you could just order parts at-will from a catalog to do whatever you want with them. You want half of a chariot model for a kitbash? You could order half of a chariot model for a kitbash.
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,) and I recall other upgrade kits existing at the time though I can't remember what all they were.
I'd like to see a lot more of this, though I don't expect it from GW given that they don't have the production capacity to just make a whole bunch of individual bits on top of their existing boxes, so they'll realistically only do this in very specific cases where the upgrade is majorly needed and demanded, and probably only for their most popular factions.
Waaaghpower wrote: Upgrade Sprues have always existed in one form or another. Heck, back in the good old days you could just order parts at-will from a catalog to do whatever you want with them. You want half of a chariot model for a kitbash? You could order half of a chariot model for a kitbash.
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,) and I recall other upgrade kits existing at the time though I can't remember what all they were.
I'd like to see a lot more of this, though I don't expect it from GW given that they don't have the production capacity to just make a whole bunch of individual bits on top of their existing boxes, so they'll realistically only do this in very specific cases where the upgrade is majorly needed and demanded, and probably only for their most popular factions.
That makes sense. I doubt we'd see huge numbers of kits, but I do wonder if we will see more of these from time to time to either help extend the lives of older plastic kits, or to shore up bits for newer ones that didn't include enough to keep up with the rules.
Supposedly there is a rumor going around that stuff like Power Swords, Power Axes and the like in the new Chaos book are now just called "Accursed weapons" so that the bit doesn't matter. If you like axes, or swords it's all the same profile. They've been doing this in AoS or a year or so now and I think it's really great. Not tying bits to the rules in easy cases is probably really healthy.
Supposedly there is a rumor going around that stuff like Power Swords, Power Axes and the like in the new Chaos book are now just called "Accursed weapons" so that the bit doesn't matter. If you like axes, or swords it's all the same profile. They've been doing this in AoS or a year or so now and I think it's really great. Not tying bits to the rules in easy cases is probably really healthy.
While I do like that you can get granular with the loadout choices, I think I'm on board with that change overall. The whole 'Power Sword/Axe/Maul' issue that started in 6th edition has always caused some jank with certain choices always being way more optimal than others. Power Swords were always crap because the S5 and S6 cutoff points mattered more than an extra point of AP, but now that they all get strength boosts there's no reason for Marines to take a Power Maul, back in the old editions Power Swords also sucked because they occupied a weak middle ground instead of getting the major buffs of an axe with minor downsides, or the major strength boost with no downsides of the maul.
Leveling it all out would really simplify things without causing balance issues or feeling limiting, IMO. It works for Orks, who have Choppas - Is it a chainsword? An axe? A club? A literal piece of chain? No, it's just a Choppa.
Yeah, it's at least more sensible than the Plague Marine approach. I'd go so far as to say that whole mess could have been solved with the option of "two bubonic weapons for everyone" and these being axes / knives / mace with a unified profile no matter what's modelled exactly.
Togusa wrote: I wonder, now that we've seen two-three different kits get "upgrade" sprues added to them, is this a viable stratagem going forward for GW? Kits like Chaos Terminators, Havoks, Crisis Suits and Ork Boys could all get a down the road additional sprue with the remaining copies of missing weapons (Chain axes and the like for Terminators, Chain Cannons for Havoks, Ion Blasters and such for Crisis suits, more choppas and shootas for boys). I wonder if that is the game plan going forward for the kits that have been released without the full number of weapon options available?
I doubt they do an ork boyz kit with the rest of the weapons, but another kit or 2 with different poses since they went monopose dynamic would help. issue with adding the weapons is how the new boyz go together. they would need to design specific weapons for each model so like replace part 43 for par 21 on the B sprue for model 7 since its not at all modular
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,)
Nah, you just spend a couple of dollars on Ebay for the bitz or you get off your lazy arse & scratch build yourself one.
Waaaghpower wrote: Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,)
Um, seriously? With other factions, maybe, but with orks? Grab two pieces of plastic piping, some orky bits, clippers to rough them up, presto, instant Killkannon and Deff Rolla
Waaaghpower wrote: Leveling it all out would really simplify things without causing balance issues or feeling limiting, IMO. It works for Orks, who have Choppas - Is it a chainsword? An axe? A club? A literal piece of chain? No, it's just a Choppa.
Shh, quiet or usual suspects will hear you and will spam the datasheet again (always the same because they can't find more than one example yet still pretend all datasheets have the same issue)
Supposedly there is a rumor going around that stuff like Power Swords, Power Axes and the like in the new Chaos book are now just called "Accursed weapons" so that the bit doesn't matter. If you like axes, or swords it's all the same profile. They've been doing this in AoS or a year or so now and I think it's really great. Not tying bits to the rules in easy cases is probably really healthy.
NO!
This is awful. It takes away choices and granularity from the game! This approach is lazy and makes list building boring. No choice, no variety. That's one of the biggest things about AOS that I hate. No upgrades, choices, no granularity. Every choice in building a unit should affect the points and what it can do on the tabletop.
Changes like this are honestly worse the overpowered books that come out and break the meta- as those have always happened. Restricting unit options, dumbing down list building, reducing granularity is a worrying trend.
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,)
Nah, you just spend a couple of dollars on Ebay for the bitz or you get off your lazy arse & scratch build yourself one.
A couple dollars?... where can you get a deff rolla for a couple dollars on Ebay? They run like thirty bucks now if you try to get one from a bitz dealer. Scratch Building is a much better alternative for orks, but not everyone wants to go down that route.
Kanluwen wrote: The whole "Accursed Weapons" thing is specific to Chosen and Terminators, not every CSM unit per the rumors.
Which only makes it worse.
"This unit's lightning claws are lightning claws, but this unit's lightning claws are not lightning claws. See, 40k is simple!"
Irbis wrote: Shh, quiet or usual suspects will hear you and will spam the datasheet again (always the same because they can't find more than one example yet still pretend all datasheets have the same issue)
But by all means, continue to blindly pretend that that we can't more than a single example, when there are so clearly more than just the Deathguard unit (which I didn't even post above). Just shows how out of touch with the game you really are.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/02/26 01:17:06
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,)
Nah, you just spend a couple of dollars on Ebay for the bitz or you get off your lazy arse & scratch build yourself one.
A couple dollars?... where can you get a deff rolla for a couple dollars on Ebay? They run like thirty bucks now if you try to get one from a bitz dealer. Scratch Building is a much better alternative for orks, but not everyone wants to go down that route.
Kromlech and Puppetswar have you covered. Also not that cheap for just an upgrade but it's also a good chunk of Resin .
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,)
Nah, you just spend a couple of dollars on Ebay for the bitz or you get off your lazy arse & scratch build yourself one.
A couple dollars?... where can you get a deff rolla for a couple dollars on Ebay? They run like thirty bucks now if you try to get one from a bitz dealer. Scratch Building is a much better alternative for orks, but not everyone wants to go down that route.
Kromlech and Puppetswar have you covered. Also not that cheap for just an upgrade but it's also a good chunk of Resin .
Likewise Etsy & other sites where you find 3d print stuff. Somebody's got you covered for a reasonable price.
But honestly? A def roller is a tube with a couple of support struts on either side to hold it onto the vehicle. Made by an ork....
You've spent more effort tying your shoes than you will spend making a reasonable looking scratch build fortis thing.
The only real question is how big around do you want the roller to be?
Battlewagons needed upgrade sprues in order to get Killkannons and Deff Rolla, (a sprue that is now just part of the main kit and can't be bought separately, so if you bought a pre-update Battlewagon and want a Deff Rolla, you're just screwed,)
Nah, you just spend a couple of dollars on Ebay for the bitz or you get off your lazy arse & scratch build yourself one.
3D Print it. 3D printing can make better bits than kitbashing.
Supposedly there is a rumor going around that stuff like Power Swords, Power Axes and the like in the new Chaos book are now just called "Accursed weapons" so that the bit doesn't matter. If you like axes, or swords it's all the same profile. They've been doing this in AoS or a year or so now and I think it's really great. Not tying bits to the rules in easy cases is probably really healthy.
NO!
This is awful. It takes away choices and granularity from the game! This approach is lazy and makes list building boring. No choice, no variety. That's one of the biggest things about AOS that I hate. No upgrades, choices, no granularity. Every choice in building a unit should affect the points and what it can do on the tabletop.
Changes like this are honestly worse the overpowered books that come out and break the meta- as those have always happened. Restricting unit options, dumbing down list building, reducing granularity is a worrying trend.
That's okay. I respect your opinion even if I personally disagree. For me, it's the best part because it takes away the constant fear of choosing something that is in now, but later will be tossed into the dumpster. It allows me to model rule of cool, yet not be punished rules wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/26 09:39:27
This is awful. It takes away choices and granularity from the game! This approach is lazy and makes list building boring. No choice, no variety. That's one of the biggest things about AOS that I hate. No upgrades, choices, no granularity. Every choice in building a unit should affect the points and what it can do on the tabletop.
Changes like this are honestly worse the overpowered books that come out and break the meta- as those have always happened. Restricting unit options, dumbing down list building, reducing granularity is a worrying trend.
Wow, you must have really hated early 3d ed.
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Kanluwen wrote: The whole "Accursed Weapons" thing is specific to Chosen and Terminators, not every CSM unit per the rumors.
Which only makes it worse.
"This unit's lightning claws are lightning claws, but this unit's lightning claws are not lightning claws. See, 40k is simple!"
Irbis wrote: Shh, quiet or usual suspects will hear you and will spam the datasheet again (always the same because they can't find more than one example yet still pretend all datasheets have the same issue)
But by all means, continue to blindly pretend that that we can't more than a single example, when there are so clearly more than just the Deathguard unit (which I didn't even post above). Just shows how out of touch with the game you really are.
1. The rumors aren't finished. There's no reason to believe Lightning Claws will just become a pair of Accursed Weapons.
2. Better Accursed Weapons than a Sword Brethren Datasheet.
Kanluwen wrote: The whole "Accursed Weapons" thing is specific to Chosen and Terminators, not every CSM unit per the rumors.
Which only makes it worse.
"This unit's lightning claws are lightning claws, but this unit's lightning claws are not lightning claws. See, 40k is simple!"
Irbis wrote: Shh, quiet or usual suspects will hear you and will spam the datasheet again (always the same because they can't find more than one example yet still pretend all datasheets have the same issue)
But by all means, continue to blindly pretend that that we can't more than a single example, when there are so clearly more than just the Deathguard unit (which I didn't even post above). Just shows how out of touch with the game you really are.
1. The rumors aren't finished. There's no reason to believe Lightning Claws will just become a pair of Accursed Weapons.
2. Better Accursed Weapons than a Sword Brethren Datasheet.
1- Because 'wait and see' turned out so well for the eldar autarch...
2- Only if its consistent. If 'accursed weapons' was part of the design philosophy for the entire edition, I'd be for it. Same as I was for generic power weapons back in the day (modeling for 'this looks good' rather than 'this is best and the rest are crap').
But the wild flailing between 'generic weapons,' 'jigsaw options,' and button trivia producing 50+ distinct (but not) bolt weapons for SM is ridiculously awful.
GW desperately needs a design bible and needs to stick to it for at least 5 years at a time, and everyone sticks to the revisions. Pick a level of abstraction and commit for more than a month.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/26 16:52:44
Kanluwen wrote: The whole "Accursed Weapons" thing is specific to Chosen and Terminators, not every CSM unit per the rumors.
Which only makes it worse.
"This unit's lightning claws are lightning claws, but this unit's lightning claws are not lightning claws. See, 40k is simple!"
Irbis wrote: Shh, quiet or usual suspects will hear you and will spam the datasheet again (always the same because they can't find more than one example yet still pretend all datasheets have the same issue)
But by all means, continue to blindly pretend that that we can't more than a single example, when there are so clearly more than just the Deathguard unit (which I didn't even post above). Just shows how out of touch with the game you really are.
1. The rumors aren't finished. There's no reason to believe Lightning Claws will just become a pair of Accursed Weapons.
2. Better Accursed Weapons than a Sword Brethren Datasheet.
1- Because 'wait and see' turned out so well for the eldar autarch...
2- Only if its consistent. If 'accursed weapons' was part of the design philosophy for the entire edition, I'd be for it. Same as I was for generic power weapons back in the day (modeling for 'this looks good' rather than 'this is best and the rest are crap').
But the wild flailing between 'generic weapons,' 'jigsaw options,' and button trivia producing 50+ distinct (but not) bolt weapons for SM is ridiculously awful.
GW desperately needs a design bible and needs to stick to it for at least 5 years at a time, and everyone sticks to the revisions. Pick a level of abstraction and commit for more than a month.
Oh trust me, I'm not a fan of the inconsistencies either, and part of the Marines Bolt problem is the bloat. Consolidation of First Born Manlet Marines and Primaris Marines needs to happen. No I don't care if you want more options, your Hellblasters should just be Devastators with Plasma Cannons.
Maybe this is a stupid question, but why not just make a bunch more equivalents to the old vehicle upgrade sprue? GW could, for instance, release a "CSM weapon upgrade" kit for twenty bucks or so that includes a bunch of spare termie weapons, havoc guns, and special weapons for standard CSM troops, but none of the actual figures themselves. It seems to solve everyone's problems perfectly.
-Consumers no longer have to buy overpriced bits from third-party websites to create optimal loadouts
-Older, pre-9th squads can function according to WYSIWYG without alteration
-People no longer get headaches from looking at infantry datasheets for too long
-People who only want a certain squad for painting or conversion purposes don't have to pay extra to receive some special weapons they'll never use (see: Cadians)
-GW gets to incentivize competitive players to buy an extra product so their guys are equipped optimally
-By including bits for a variety of different units, GW can get these buyers to buy a bunch of stuff they don't need to receive the parts they actually do
-Depending on the price, buying these sprues could still be cheaper than getting the bits off other sites! Havoc chaincannons are $20 bucks a pop right now, for instance; if GW put two of them on a $30 sprue with a bunch of other stuff, that's a straight-up discount.
This solution seems like it would benefit everyone. Why hasn't it already been embraced? Am I missing something here?
GW decided that they make more money selling full kits only.
Presumably they have numbers on vehicle upgrade sprues (and they definitely had numbers on selling bits directly when they axed that). They should be able to do some projections based on the necromunda sprues, but I don't know how well that would transfer between systems.
And honestly, if their sales model is still aimed primarily at the expectation that players will come in, buy some kits over a year or two and leave, then that decision makes sense. 'Benefit everyone' isn't their goal. Make the most money at lowest cost is.
The people who will deep dive for bits may not be common/consistent enough to be sustainable source of revenue.
and also, they've had enough production issues as it is. More optional sprues cut into manufacturing time of the staples.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/27 02:34:04
