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ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
Having printed a couple models now I'll agree that the initial barrier is higher than most say. But the claimed brittle-ness with SLA is overstated, as there are many resins to choose from and I've only seen issues with details that are MUCH smaller than anything GW does.
I don't see 3d printing as fully replacing the market for plastic kits. . . but it's certainly starting to carve into the market in a substantial way.
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
Having printed a couple models now I'll agree that the initial barrier is higher than most say. But the claimed brittle-ness with SLA is overstated, as there are many resins to choose from and I've only seen issues with details that are MUCH smaller than anything GW does.
I don't see 3d printing as fully replacing the market for plastic kits. . . but it's certainly starting to carve into the market in a substantial way.
If it's carving into anything it's carving into the 3rd party market the most.
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
Having printed a couple models now I'll agree that the initial barrier is higher than most say. But the claimed brittle-ness with SLA is overstated, as there are many resins to choose from and I've only seen issues with details that are MUCH smaller than anything GW does.
I don't see 3d printing as fully replacing the market for plastic kits. . . but it's certainly starting to carve into the market in a substantial way.
If it's carving into anything it's carving into the 3rd party market the most.
I wouldn't be surprised if 3Dprinting is 90% of the third party market now. But a healthy 3rd party market and carving into the GW marketshare are basically the same thing.
ClockworkZion wrote: 3d printing isn't the threat people who are into 3d printing claim it is. Largely because it's a whole secoondary hobby with a decent barrier to entry and it has shortcomings (the best material to print minatures with is SLA resin thanks to it's greater detail over filament printing but unless you're recasting that into a more durable resin you now have a very brittle model) and generally people don't always have the space or living conditions to bring that into their life (such as tiny apartments, kids or pets all being barriers).
I just started 3D printing. It's not a threat now. It will be. The line I drew for myself on what I will and won't 3D print isn unlikely to ever be a threat to GW - I'll only print bits or Original Designs - I found a Primaris Breacher Squad with UM details (Calgar/Victrix horseshoe loincloths and crested helmets), as well as UM powersword and Stormshields - Victrix Guard, and Bladeguard here they come. I've found molded detail banners for the 1st company, 2nd company and Calgar. There's also a guy who does RetroMarines with infantry looking like a Lost In Space episode, and a Repulsor heavily inspired by a 65 Caddilac.
But others will draw their own line. Eventually GW will have to decide what to do with it.
It's a hobby built around a game. You can still enjoy 40K without playing the game if you just want to build, paint or read Black Library. For me it's all of those things, and has a regular social aspect, which it what sets it apart from other games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/05 09:53:35
Recently, listening to a well known 40K podcast reviewing the new Eldar book, I was struck by how the hosts would oscillate between talk about rules and how these would both affect unit performance and encourage people to buy and field these models, and painting and unit background in terms of new rules representing what these units are supposed to be from this background. What was interesting was that these two aspects of the same discussion could have been separated completely into two distinct conversations… though two of three of the hosts confessed to not being so interested in the modeling aspects, what I would consider more of the hobby part, as their interests were more in playing the game to win, becoming the best dark angels player in the world, yada…
So, that got me thinking, resulting in this….. Simple poll. Is 40K primarily a game, with a system to be mastered and opponents to be bested with more skilful competitive gameplay that uses officially sanctioned models as tokens, or is it primarily a hobby involving painting and modeling and so on that culminates in a game that allows hobbyists to use their handpainted and often to some degree handcrafted and customised models to play out scenarios?
This is a choice between extremes, a hard choice maybe, leaving open how grey middles and “both” type answers are to be borne out in discussion.
Togas, again, from the original post, this is understood, and the discussion was supposed to be a place to discuss differing views.
I could go with lifestyle. People buy 40K clothes, bags, stickers for their machines, drink from 40K mugs, check Dakka before work, during lunch, after work, before bed, ask for 40K for birthdays and for Christmas, follow 40K releases even for factions that they do not collect, like to hang out in the games shops to talk 40K, be around 40K, like to read 40K... more than being a fan of an IP, less than an obsession, day in day out... sure, why not. I don't wear the clothes, and drink from borrowed mugs, but i would like to wear 40K and have a mug someday, sure. So, yeah, for me, since I stopped other hobbies, the gyms closed, I got tired of bars, and so on, yeah, lifestyle might be right. I am not Rob Baer, even close, or any of the ITC Frontline people, who I suspect might be more on the mark for the class, but yeah, why not.
Warhammer 40K is a game.
Warhammer 40K is a hobby.
Warhammer 40K is both a hobby and a game.
Some people will select option 1, others will select option 2. Yet others still can select option 3.
The answer to this question depends entirely on who you're talking to.
Pretty much this.
And as for the “nO 4oK R noT, wArGaMiNg R tEh HoBbEh” claims? Well. No. Predominantly no. But also yes.
Let me turn to the yes first. Wargaming absolutely does exist outside of GW’s offerings, let alone 40K itself. There are a great many options out there. You simply cannot argue against that.
But. On the no? GW has taken pains to be able to provide an entirely self contained experience. Rules, models, boards, paints, tools, modelling supplies, fiction etc. All of it. The only thing I can think of which they don’t provide are Air Brushing kits. They also, depending on where you are, have stores which double as hubs of hobby. A place to meet others of the same interest. And so, GW are absolutely a little bubble of Hobby unto themselves. No one else in the market offers the same level of comprehensive coverage as GW. Not even close.
No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Recently, listening to a well known 40K podcast reviewing the new Eldar book, I was struck by how the hosts would oscillate between talk about rules and how these would both affect unit performance and encourage people to buy and field these models, and painting and unit background in terms of new rules representing what these units are supposed to be from this background. What was interesting was that these two aspects of the same discussion could have been separated completely into two distinct conversations… though two of three of the hosts confessed to not being so interested in the modeling aspects, what I would consider more of the hobby part, as their interests were more in playing the game to win, becoming the best dark angels player in the world, yada…
So, that got me thinking, resulting in this….. Simple poll. Is 40K primarily a game, with a system to be mastered and opponents to be bested with more skilful competitive gameplay that uses officially sanctioned models as tokens, or is it primarily a hobby involving painting and modeling and so on that culminates in a game that allows hobbyists to use their handpainted and often to some degree handcrafted and customised models to play out scenarios?
This is a choice between extremes, a hard choice maybe, leaving open how grey middles and “both” type answers are to be borne out in discussion.
Togas, again, from the original post, this is understood, and the discussion was supposed to be a place to discuss differing views.
Thank you for your... contribution.
I guess I don't understand the point then. The poll is set up in such a way as to deliberately exclude one of the possible answers. That appears to me that you're wanting to corral discussion into one of two camps, Hobby or Game. Why?
Not at all. I limit choices to force reflection, hard decisions, and invite discussion on why the decision was difficult, yada. The poll is only intended as a vehicle for discussion… it is not intended to capture every possible permutation of response, and rather ask that these be set out in discussion. Yes?
jeff white wrote: Not at all. I limit choices to force reflection, hard decisions, and invite discussion on why the decision was difficult, yada. The poll is only intended as a vehicle for discussion… it is not intended to capture every possible permutation of response, and rather ask that these be set out in discussion. Yes?
Given the proportion of responses that are "this isn't a useful distinction" I don't think framing the question that way achieved that very well.
jeff white wrote: Not at all. I limit choices to force reflection, hard decisions, and invite discussion on why the decision was difficult, yada. The poll is only intended as a vehicle for discussion… it is not intended to capture every possible permutation of response, and rather ask that these be set out in discussion. Yes?
I don't see the reason for you to exclude the likely very common answer of "both hobby and game aspects are important to me."
What if you reframed your poll/question to be something like:
"With hobby defined as building/painting and gaming defined as actually playing the game on the tabletop, how do you rate each activity's importance to you?"
a. Hobby is the only part that matters to me. If I game at all it is to see my models on the tabletop and I don't care about the game result.
b. Hobby is more important to me as I love modeling/painting, but I do enjoy the gaming experience. I will play with a non-meta model because I like how it looks/take pride in it
c. The hobby and gaming aspects are equally important to me. I make compromises in both directions. I am the Aristotle of 40K.
d. I sort-of enjoy hobbying, but I really prefer gaming and focus my resources on effective models. I generally don't assemble and paint models if they don't perform well on the tabletop
e. The game is all that matters to me. If I hobby it is just to get models on the tabletop. I pay others to do my hobby for me, churning and burning all the way.
I imagine you would have less debates over definitions and with some real choices you allow people to report how they actually feel. You'd still get to see if people privilege hobby over game, but with some nuance.
Anyhoo.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
jeff white wrote: I could go with lifestyle. People buy 40K clothes, bags, stickers for their machines, drink from 40K mugs, check Dakka before work, during lunch, after work, before bed, ask for 40K for birthdays and for Christmas, follow 40K releases even for factions that they do not collect, like to hang out in the games shops to talk 40K, be around 40K, like to read 40K... more than being a fan of an IP, less than an obsession, day in day out... sure, why not. I don't wear the clothes, and drink from borrowed mugs, but i would like to wear 40K and have a mug someday, sure. So, yeah, for me, since I stopped other hobbies, the gyms closed, I got tired of bars, and so on, yeah, lifestyle might be right. I am not Rob Baer, even close, or any of the ITC Frontline people, who I suspect might be more on the mark for the class, but yeah, why not.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Despite that, miniatures gaming is the hobby, not 40k.
It's like WWE trying to control the idea of pro wrestling, in the end it doesn't work.
I agree that miniature wargaming is the generic term for the hobby. But a lot of people partake in that hobby solely through 40k. For them 40k is their hobby.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Despite that, miniatures gaming is the hobby, not 40k.
It's like WWE trying to control the idea of pro wrestling, in the end it doesn't work.
I agree that miniature wargaming is the generic term for the hobby. But a lot of people partake in that hobby solely through 40k. For them 40k is their hobby.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Despite that, miniatures gaming is the hobby, not 40k.
It's like WWE trying to control the idea of pro wrestling, in the end it doesn't work.
I agree that miniature wargaming is the generic term for the hobby. But a lot of people partake in that hobby solely through 40k. For them 40k is their hobby.
Reminds me of a man who told me, 'I'm not a heterosexual, I only love my wife!'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/07 01:08:30
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Despite that, miniatures gaming is the hobby, not 40k.
It's like WWE trying to control the idea of pro wrestling, in the end it doesn't work.
I agree that miniature wargaming is the generic term for the hobby. But a lot of people partake in that hobby solely through 40k. For them 40k is their hobby.
Reminds me of a man who told me, 'I'm not a heterosexual, I only love my wife!'
I mean, that's the thing with analogies. Anything can be turned into one.
'I'm into football' for example. Its accurate and perfectly fair to say you're a football fan, moreso than a sports fan, especially if you're not into those other sports...
'Sports fan' implies a broader interest, just like 'miniature wargaming' does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/07 08:06:04
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Despite that, miniatures gaming is the hobby, not 40k.
It's like WWE trying to control the idea of pro wrestling, in the end it doesn't work.
I agree that miniature wargaming is the generic term for the hobby. But a lot of people partake in that hobby solely through 40k. For them 40k is their hobby.
Reminds me of a man who told me, 'I'm not a heterosexual, I only love my wife!'
I mean, that's the thing with analogies. Anything can be turned into one.
'I'm into football' for example. Its accurate and perfectly fair to say you're a football fan, moreso than a sports fan, especially if you're not into those other sports...
'Sports fan' implies a broader interest, just like 'miniature wargaming' does.
Exactly. And lots of football fans I know are just into one squad and the national team, not even the whole sport. They couldn't care less about other teams, including top ones, unless they cross path with their own one, let alone other leagues or women football.
Most of the football supporters aren't sports fan, they just like and follow 1-3 sports typically. That can be said for the majority of people I believe, not only football fans.
With this analogy in mind I for example can't define myself a miniature wargaming fan as I'm into GW and only been into GW since over 20 years when I started the hobby, mostly 40k but also Necromunda and WHFB. Couldn't care less about other games and other miniatures.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/07 08:21:17
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: No one gives a Skaven’s nipsy whether you don’t like that fact, for a fact it remains.
Despite that, miniatures gaming is the hobby, not 40k.
It's like WWE trying to control the idea of pro wrestling, in the end it doesn't work.
Yet. One can solely be a WWE fan, and have no interest in other Promotions. Same with 40K, AoS and GW.
If one solely indulges in the one offering, they’re a fan of that offering, rather than the wider industry.
Again, GW offer an entirely self contained experience, in a way I don’t think any other company in the same industry does. It’s the whole shebang. And even within that, a given person might only partake of specific parts. For instance, one can focus solely on the Heresy series. No models bought. No paints procured. Nary a dice rolled.
Does that mean they’re not a fan of the Heresy, but instead just a fan of reading? No. Not it does not. To use myself as a subject. I like my BL fiction, and I like mg Pratchett. In terms of novels? That’s pretty much all I read. Comics? 2000AD, and Marvel Big Events. So whilst yes both respectively mean I enjoy reading and comic books, my whole very specific tastes mean I am more a fan of those specifics properties.
My movie tastes are much broader, so there I’d be happy to be considered a Movie Fan, rather than a fan specifically of SciFi, Horror etc.
Comedy I’m again more specific. Very broadly I am a comedy fan. But it’s more accurate to say I’m a fan of slapstick, satire and surrealism. Other forms of comedy leave me cold - such as one liner comedians leaving me cold. I specifically only really enjoy and appreciate U.K. sitcoms, as I find the US ones a bit..well…smug and lazy. Other comedy tastes are of course available.
I spend hundreds, if not thousands of pounds a year on GW’s gubbins, and barely any money outside of their offerings. If you want justification, I can really only offer the sheer convenience and a level of personal investment in the games and associated lores. I have tried X-Wing and Warmachine, but didn’t pursue them beyond a few months. I certainly own none of those models or rules anymore.
Am I a Wargamer? Or am I a GW hobbyist? The latter, clearly.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I would 1000% absolutely differentiate a wargamer with a GW hobbyist, which includes people that PLAY GW games as part of that hobby and ONLY play GW games for the most part.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Yet. One can solely be a WWE fan, and have no interest in other Promotions. Same with 40K, AoS and GW.
Except we would call them a pro wrestling fan, still. What attracts them to WWE, exactly? Just seeing the WWE logo slapped on everything?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If one solely indulges in the one offering, they’re a fan of that offering, rather than the wider industry.
I don't think that works for hobbies; it's different from merely being a "fan."
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Again, GW offer an entirely self contained experience, in a way I don’t think any other company in the same industry does. It’s the whole shebang. And even within that, a given person might only partake of specific parts. For instance, one can focus solely on the Heresy series. No models bought. No paints procured. Nary a dice rolled.
That's not really a hobby, then. That's just being a fan. A hobby implies there's an activity/creative aspect, as opposed to soulless passive consumption.
[1,250] Thousand Sons | 
Dark Angels > Purple Death Legion (Purple Vanilla Marines) > Dark Angels > Death Watch > Thousand Sons with special appearances by Tzeench Demons 
6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
4000 pts - 
1000 pts 
