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 Gert wrote:
What shift?

It's clear that in 8th Ed, GW set a general rule- in response to summoning abuse- that abilities could replenish existing units but not create new ones. Off the top of my head the only exception I can think of is the Biovore, and the 'unit' that ability creates is basically just a mortal wound on a 25mm base.

A new ability that creates new units while specifically being exempt from the reinforcement points mechanic could indicate that that this hard-and-fast rule is being walked back. If that is the case, we're obviously starting small with a pretty innocuous example. Which, to be fair, OP explicitly recognized.

I may not share OP's concerns, but I am sorry for them that seemingly half the replies in this thread did not read the OP and assume OP is saying 'broken pls nerf' or 'sky is falling' or 'end times soon'.

Irbis wrote:Even tiny unit of 5 models will keep the objective against a Parasite, OS or not, even if it manages to kill one or two models, sooo...

Unless Rippers stay as Troops. Current rumor says moving to FA, but spawning an obsec model while denying the obsec of the unit it spawned from would be a nasty trick.

 Blackie wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Before this there was a clear line that units could replenish to their starting strength, recycle from a board edge at starting strength, or you could pay for weird deploying reserves.

Resurrecting 29 Boyz while simultaneously redeploying them was infinitely more bs than this Parasite of Mortrex rule, so I can't personally get worked up about it unless GW actually starts to push the envelope again.

I'm not too worried about whether new models brought onto the board are comprising their own unit or being added to depleted ones; I care about how many free points a player is getting in total.

SM can currently resurrect expensive models for free, also other armies can. Not even paying CPs, just for free as built-in ability of their doc. That's annoying, much more than paying 3CPs for resurrecting and redeploying ork boyz, which a skilled player would have prevented anyway by wiping the mob in the first place instead of leaving a few dudes standing.

How much do you think Apothecaries are LOL

Though in AOS it doesn't break game. Summoning armies aren't dominating tournaments.

Not dominating tournaments does not mean not breaking the game. Tournament builds are by their nature OP.

So they are not dominating other OP builds.

For casual and for fun builds they are absolutely a game breaker and there are more builds and games that exist other than tournament OP builds that also need accounted for.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Daemon summoning probably won't come back since it hasn't been mentioned in any of the 9th Chaos Codizes.

More realistically we might see a way of bringing a Chaos Spawn through psychic powers, I think that one was in any CSM Codex since 3rd?

Spawns were kewl. Fun bit of twist.

I think they’re going to have to do some sort of free unit thing for conscripts. They’re capped at 5 points, and a normal guardsman is like 5.5, might be going to 6?, I’m expecting something like they can just respawn at board edge once maybe.

 jeff white wrote:
Jones? Is something wrong? Jones? …. Jones! Gawd nooooo…. Run!

Jones is acting strangely...
2nd goodness which will never be surpassed.

 catbarf wrote:

It's clear that in 8th Ed, GW set a general rule- in response to summoning abuse- that abilities could replenish existing units but not create new ones. Off the top of my head the only exception I can think of is the Biovore, and the 'unit' that ability creates is basically just a mortal wound on a 25mm base.

Biovores, Harpies, and Sporocysts all can do it, though admittedly in the case of all three the exception is in the Spore Mines/Mucolid Spore's Living Bomb rules rather than the weapons that generate them and, as you said, it is more akin to a token than a unit proper.

 catbarf wrote:

Unless Rippers stay as Troops. Current rumor says moving to FA, but spawning an obsec model while denying the obsec of the unit it spawned from would be a nasty trick.

I'm afraid it wouldn't work even if they remained troops. Models added to an army after the game starts don't get detachment benefits, which includes objective secured.

That being said, it would be pretty cool if the various "feeder" organisms were to be given objective secured as a base datasheet ability since their specific job is to "secure" biomass and raw materials for the hive.

 Gert wrote:
. Summoning got nuked in 8th and AFAIK the two Chaos armies that have already been released don't have the rule from 8th that allowed Chaos Characters to summon Daemons.

They don't need to because that rule has always been in the Daemons Codex since it was released, not the other Chaos Codexes.

It was in the 8th Ed Chaos Marine Codex actually.

 Gert wrote:
It was in the 8th Ed Chaos Marine Codex actually.

it still wasnt a Chaos space marine ability, it was copypasted in the CSM codex for convenience. its always been a Demons rule

Codex CSM came out in August 2017, Daemons was January 2018 but please tell me again how it's a Daemons rule copy-pasted.

 Gert wrote:
Codex CSM came out in August 2017, Daemons was January 2018 but please tell me again how it's a Daemons rule copy-pasted.

Its an ability granted to CSM by the demons codex. GW knew it was coming so they added it to the CSM codex so people could summon. Remove the demons codex and the rule doesnt exist anymore

Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Pink Horrors and Daemonettes were all in the 8th Ed CSM book. So no, it isn't a Chaos Daemons ability.

 Gert wrote:
Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Pink Horrors and Daemonettes were all in the 8th Ed CSM book. So no, it isn't a Chaos Daemons ability.

Argue as much as you want, these were in there for reference only.

And we already can infer its a demon-specific rule since Thousand sons and Deathguard lost their reference to it with their new codexes

 Gert wrote:
Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Pink Horrors and Daemonettes were all in the 8th Ed CSM book. So no, it isn't a Chaos Daemons ability.

But due to how the rule is worded even DG and TS characters can still summon Daemons so it's wrong to say the rule was "nuked". I don't think it will survive the release of 9th ed. Daemons Codex, though.

honestly i say bring back demon summoning and Tervygons making more gaunts without reinforcement points, just make it small independant units and more effective at adding them to existing units.

on summoning i would just make sure only one model per army can summon and make it like a 8+ power to summon a 2D3 strong man squad of a lesser demon type, if adding to a existing demon squad add 3D3

literallty same mechanic for Tervigons minus the psychic test as they are really really underpowered models right now and leaks are not showing them to be getting much better unless i have missed something.

I don’t think a less than 50/50 chance of summoning 2-6 Plaguebearers or other lesser Daemons is worth… much of anything, honestly.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think a less than 50/50 chance of summoning 2-6 Plaguebearers or other lesser Daemons is worth… much of anything, honestly.

It doesn't have zero value but yea, pretty low impact. About on par with casting a smite in terms of game impact (so maybe make it a lower warp charge cost like a smite even) . might be clutch in a few games but not a game breaking must take mechanic. I did not enjoy for that time where everybody, in 7th if i recall, were summoning demons in every turn and overwhlming the board. I don't think the Tervigons were ever really that impactful with their birthed units but that is more of the platform itself always being a worthless chasis that was not worth its points unless it made a whole bunch of babies

So the Nids worst summoning scenario - a Tervigon can bring back 2D6 gants a turn *or* it can pop out one 10 man with fleshborers once per game.

The first ability it lessened by a great degree if you can remove the unit the tervigon would add to. Worst case they add 70 points of free models.

The Tervigon doesn't exactly have a lot of shooting and will be stuck behind blobs of gants so I'm not entirely sure it is a problem on it's own.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think a less than 50/50 chance of summoning 2-6 Plaguebearers or other lesser Daemons is worth… much of anything, honestly.

It doesn't have zero value but yea, pretty low impact. About on par with casting a smite in terms of game impact (so maybe make it a lower warp charge cost like a smite even) . might be clutch in a few games but not a game breaking must take mechanic. I did not enjoy for that time where everybody, in 7th if i recall, were summoning demons in every turn and overwhlming the board. I don't think the Tervigons were ever really that impactful with their birthed units but that is more of the platform itself always being a worthless chasis that was not worth its points unless it made a whole bunch of babies

That was my very last AOS game as well.

My opponent summoned almost 2,000 extra free points in two turns. That game was pointless and was the catalyst for me to drop the game.

They've got summoning under much better control now in AoS. Not sure why they allowed it to happen like that in 2.0, aside from hangover from the free-wheeling anything-goes release of AoS.

Summoning "new, additional" units that can exceed your original points limit seems like it can be fine in limited fashion as we see here in the Parasite, and certain units like Eisenhorn + Cherubael. Just bake the cost into the summoner, but make it clear that the summoning is something they should be doing, and not just a side-benefit.

As an army-wide kind of rule it would be very dangerous to re-introduce, as the cost would be difficult to account for (points-wise) without making pretty much everything too expensive, or at least anything capable of summoning (like chaos HQs).

I dunno but the community seemed to tightly embrace it and claim it was fine everything was fine when it was going on lol.

I think new additional point things work as a way to have armies that are “weaker”. I personally think that it could be a pretty good fix for guard if they could basically just have forces constantly trickling in through their backline.

Seeing how summoning don't appear anywhere near top in aos atm they certainly fixed that problem long time ago.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I think new additional point things work as a way to have armies that are “weaker”. I personally think that it could be a pretty good fix for guard if they could basically just have forces constantly trickling in through their backline.

Its a good concept but for it to work gw would have to correctly identify which were the weaker armies (and if they wanted for them to remain that way) and then learn how to balance it!

tneva82 wrote:
Seeing how summoning don't appear anywhere near top in aos atm they certainly fixed that problem long time ago.

Yeah, Summoning was fixed a long time ago lol.