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Aren't Bolt Rifles -1 anyway? With longer range?
Aren't Primaris supposed to replace first born eventually as well?

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Which takes us back to this topic - pulse rifles AP5, Shuriken catapults AP5, Bolter AP5. Which one isn't innately ap-1 in that list now?

The one that can shoot twice at 24" in the hands of Marines?

Correct, I like you posed that like it was an expanation though.

Just pointing out that there's more going on than just AP, lest some of us forget.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Which takes us back to this topic - pulse rifles AP5, Shuriken catapults AP5, Bolter AP5. Which one isn't innately ap-1 in that list now?

The one that can shoot twice at 24" in the hands of Marines?

Correct, I like you posed that like it was an expanation though.

Just pointing out that there's more going on than just AP, lest some of us forget.

Pulse rifles are rapid fire 36" so a whole foot of extra range and 18" rapidfire. The shuriken Catapult is assault 2 18" so they both actually have something that balances against bolter discipline. Also sisters do not have bolter discipline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Aren't Bolt Rifles -1 anyway? With longer range?
Aren't Primaris supposed to replace first born eventually as well?

Yes they have better guns and no intercessors do not replace tacticals.

^Units can charge after firing bolters now. Heck bolters can move and fire twice! It can even move and fire once at 24! Back in 3rd ed, a bolter could do none of those things. The Shuriken Catapult has deserved upgrades for years.

Look I'm fine with Bolters getting AP-1 while dropping the Doctrine bonus. But keep some perspective about the trends that have occured over time here. While were at it, kill Armor of Contempt. Marines will still be pulling ahead because they have two fething wounds now.


Give Gauss Flayers D2.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Units can charge after firing bolters now. Heck bolters can move and fire twice! It can even move and fire once at 24! Back in 3rd ed, a bolter could do none of those things. The Shuriken Catapult has deserved upgrades for years.

Look I'm fine with Bolters getting AP-1 while dropping the Doctrine bonus. But keep some perspective about the trends that have occured over time here. While were at it, kill Armor of Contempt. Marines will still be pulling ahead because they have two fething wounds now.


Give Gauss Flayers D2.

Well really, Necron Warriors should be T4 2w. Hell, I'd make basic demons 2w (mostly T3) to give defensive profiles more variety and to emphasize the idea that they're not supposed to be chaff before marines.

While we’re at it I’d like a good ork codex for sanguinala.

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Units can charge after firing bolters now. Heck bolters can move and fire twice! It can even move and fire once at 24! Back in 3rd ed, a bolter could do none of those things. The Shuriken Catapult has deserved upgrades for years.

Look I'm fine with Bolters getting AP-1 while dropping the Doctrine bonus. But keep some perspective about the trends that have occured over time here. While were at it, kill Armor of Contempt. Marines will still be pulling ahead because they have two fething wounds now.


Give Gauss Flayers D2.

Well really, Necron Warriors should be T4 2w. Hell, I'd make basic demons 2w (mostly T3) to give defensive profiles more variety and to emphasize the idea that they're not supposed to be chaff before marines.

Nah, Necrons are fine. They're thin and wiry, so it stands to say the toughness from them IS the coming back from the dead.
If you wanted to boost their T value sure, but wounds at 1 for the non-elite works.

Hecaton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Units can charge after firing bolters now. Heck bolters can move and fire twice! It can even move and fire once at 24! Back in 3rd ed, a bolter could do none of those things. The Shuriken Catapult has deserved upgrades for years.

Look I'm fine with Bolters getting AP-1 while dropping the Doctrine bonus. But keep some perspective about the trends that have occured over time here. While were at it, kill Armor of Contempt. Marines will still be pulling ahead because they have two fething wounds now.


Give Gauss Flayers D2.

Well really, Necron Warriors should be T4 2w. Hell, I'd make basic demons 2w (mostly T3) to give defensive profiles more variety and to emphasize the idea that they're not supposed to be chaff before marines.

This, bring some more diversity so more decisions need to be made and more weapons have purpose.

Come in GW, explode those stats sat between 1-10 and shake it up.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Nah, Necrons are fine. They're thin and wiry, so it stands to say the toughness from them IS the coming back from the dead.

If "they're thin and wiry" maybe they should be harder to hit. . .

They're also made of alien metal. Make them 3w and T6.

They used to be elite you know.

To be honest on of the problems I have with the idea of Necron warriors as elite is the classic image of the endless Necron legion as shown in the cover of the 4th ed Necron codex.

GW has spent way to much time depicting Necron Warriors as fodder. Extremely dangerous and well armed, but as far as the Necron leaders are concerned, fodder nonetheless.

I mean the whole point of the Necrons is that they originally were a universe-ending threat, just like the Tyranids.

They were endless AND elite, able to match Space Marines and still have massive armies that competed with the Imperial Guard for force capability.

The theme was that (due to malfunctions and just a certain inherent slowness to the Necrons) the mortal races could delay the inevitable... but it would always come for them in the end. Just like the Tyranids.

On the tabletop, this was reflected with the Phase Out rule - the Necrons were more elite than Marines and still quite numerous, but killing 75% of them made the army teleport away to fight again another day.

And that original theme was pretty much undermined if not outright removed from the lore with the 5th ed Codex and the introduction of Necron characters and subfactions.

Lore wise, and thus rule wise, Necrons cannot really go back to that.

 Tyran wrote:
And that original theme was pretty much undermined if not outright removed from the lore with the 5th ed Codex and the introduction of Necron characters and subfactions.

Lore wise, and thus rule wise, Necrons cannot really go back to that.

Of course they could go back to that. It'd be easier than the introduction of Primaris.

No, as they have invested time and models setting up the different Necron subfactions and characters. Going back would mean burning down the effort put on Trazyn, Zahndrekh or the TDK trilogy.

For as disruptive as the Primaries were, their introduction didn't really require the removal or even rewriting of characters and/or factions.

EviscerationPlague wrote:


Well really, Necron Warriors should be T4 2w. Hell, I'd make basic demons 2w (mostly T3) to give defensive profiles more variety and to emphasize the idea that they're not supposed to be chaff before marines.

Nah, Necrons are fine. They're thin and wiry, so it stands to say the toughness from them IS the coming back from the dead.
If you wanted to boost their T value sure, but wounds at 1 for the non-elite works.

Hecaton wrote:


Necron Warriors *should* be elite - they're the soldiers of a race that's supposed to be unimaginably technologically advanced, and that's how they used to be portrayed. Instead they get thrown under the bus for marine spank.

they do have advanced tech... Marines don't get reanimation protocols.

 Tyran wrote:
And that original theme was pretty much undermined if not outright removed from the lore with the 5th ed Codex and the introduction of Necron characters and subfactions.

Lore wise, and thus rule wise, Necrons cannot really go back to that.

No, lore wise it could definitely be brought back to that if they just emphasized Necron technological superiority (which they should be doing anyway).

And rules wise there's no reason it couldn't be changed.

It sounds like you're saying you don't *want* it to be changed, not that it couldn't be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
No, as they have invested time and models setting up the different Necron subfactions and characters. Going back would mean burning down the effort put on Trazyn, Zahndrekh or the TDK trilogy.

For as disruptive as the Primaries were, their introduction didn't really require the removal or even rewriting of characters and/or factions.

Yeah it did. It required retconning the idea that the Imperium is a decaying, degenerate, anti-science, anti-innovation society.

You don't need to "burn down" the effort put into Trazyn to emphasize that Necron warriors are technologically superior the Imperium and as basic troops are more or less a match to the Imperium's elites.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Necron Warriors *should* be elite - they're the soldiers of a race that's supposed to be unimaginably technologically advanced, and that's how they used to be portrayed. Instead they get thrown under the bus for marine spank.

they do have advanced tech... Marines don't get reanimation protocols.

... Yet...

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Necron Warriors *should* be elite - they're the soldiers of a race that's supposed to be unimaginably technologically advanced, and that's how they used to be portrayed. Instead they get thrown under the bus for marine spank.

they do have advanced tech... Marines don't get reanimation protocols.

... Yet...

Honestly i'm getting tired of all the "woe is me, my faction isn't as elite as it should be in the fluff because other factions get the same keyword/effect"

Give all flavors of resilient factions a simple 5+++, Necrons, DG, Custodes, etc. can all be shown as more resilient with the same rule (and we'd get less complaint about RP for example).

Stop giving every factions their unique twist on resiliency thats really just a number being higher or lower than for other factions. Make the game simpler

Hecaton wrote:

Necron Warriors *should* be elite - they're the soldiers of a race that's supposed to be unimaginably technologically advanced, and that's how they used to be portrayed. Instead they get thrown under the bus for marine spank.

How dare you insult Space Marines, the rightful rulers of this game and the best army ever (end sarcasm)

Necrons beat the old ones...they enslaved literal gods, they took over the entirety of the galaxy and then...went to sleep. Krorkz were designed by the old ones to face off against the Necrons. Keep that in mind, at the time of the war in heaven the "fodder" were necron warriors vs Krorkz. The fluff I'm familiar with has the basic Krork boy standing 12 meters tall and wearing advanced Power armor that makes Space Marine armor look like imperial guard flask vests. Even if you cut that height in half so that only their leaders were 12 meters tall and the regular boyz were 6 meters tall...that would still make them ungodly powerful. In the canon lore of 40k a Demi-Krork, as in an Ork not yet reaching Krork levels was able to kill A primarch in single combat (Vulkan). Think about what I just said. A Demi-Krork killed Vulkan. And those Krorkz were considered the "Fodder" for the Old ones during the War in heaven, and furthermore the Necrons BEAT THEM!

So yeah, cool, Necron warriors are "Fodder" but fodder by that time frame makes them more advanced/elite/better than any Space Marine. How the hell else could anyone hope to beat an army of billions to trillions of Krorkz who make Ghazghkull look like a grot in comparison? Fluf wise Necrons absolutely get shafted by Space Marine Bolter porn and its ridiculous.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Give all flavors of resilient factions a simple 5+++, Necrons, DG, Custodes, etc. can all be shown as more resilient with the same rule (and we'd get less complaint about RP for example).

Stop giving every factions their unique twist on resiliency thats really just a number being higher or lower than for other factions. Make the game simpler

But then we'll start getting rules that ignore +++, like Railguns/etc ignoring Invulnerable saves, and Transhuman/etc ignoring weapon Strength, and whatever that was recently that ignores rerolls.

I'm still kinda shocked how a standard Astartes is more Contemptuous than a Custodian. I get it, Balance, and Custodes already have a 2+, to a marines 3+. But the thought behind it that somehow a Marine is better at stopping las guns than a Custodian?

Hecaton wrote:

It sounds like you're saying you don't *want* it to be changed, not that it couldn't be.

It would mean going back to the time in which Necrons were pretty much invincible for all purposes. The change to the 5th ed Necrons was also the change that allowed other factions to get wins against the Necrons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah it did. It required retconning the idea that the Imperium is a decaying, degenerate, anti-science, anti-innovation society.

Plenty of lore since then has shown the IoM as a decaying, degenerate, anti-science, anti-innovation society. My favorite being the Dark Angels constantly mind-wiping Primaris and using them as fodder (while selling out other Chapters to the Tau).

So not really.

You don't need to "burn down" the effort put into Trazyn to emphasize that Necron warriors are technologically superior the Imperium and as basic troops are more or less a match to the Imperium's elites.

You would need to reverse the tragedy themes present in the Necron books. A common thread is that because of the passage of time and the wounds caused by the War in Heaven and the rebellion against the C'tan, plus Necron infighting, they are but a shadow of their once might civilization.

This is at its most blatant in the TDK books, in which the remains of a doomed dynasty is forced to flee from an Imperial Crusade.

Moreover, I do believe we are forgetting about the actual professional soldiers of the Necrons, the Immortals. The Warriors are supposed to be nothing more than conscripted and mindwiped civilians after all while the Immortals actually were the main military force that fought the War in Heaven. And when it comes to Immortals I do believe they should at least be 2W.

As a new Necron player, I am willing to participate in a discussion about them. But this thread is about Bolt weapons and those that use them. And sure, some other faction comparison is more than applicable. However, I think there's a bit of subject drift occurring, common when threads such as this one gets long-in-the-tooth.

Take the above as kindly as possible, I just wanted to make a gentle reminder.

 Tyran wrote:
No, as they have invested time and models setting up the different Necron subfactions and characters. Going back would mean burning down the effort put on Trazyn, Zahndrekh or the TDK trilogy.

For as disruptive as the Primaries were, their introduction didn't really require the removal or even rewriting of characters and/or factions.

Response 1: You mean like the rewriting Oldcrons to Nucrons in the first place?

Response 2: Then just like Primaris, have both coexist in the universe.

 carldooley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If bolters' problem is AoC, aka no AP bonus under the tactical doctrine against other power armoured armies, let SM weapons (or even just bolters) ignore AoC.

Actually I think doctrines in general could ignore AoC for an easier solution. Heavy weapons would ignore AoC first, then bolt weapons, and lastly melee ones.

well . Why doesn't EVERYONE just ignore AOC?

Because AoC is (mostly) a marine thing, they should know how to bypass it .

Yes it's a band aid, but better than giving bolters, especially all bolters, flat AP-1. Which would be massive and unneeded.

To be fair, I'd keep AoC and get rid of doctrines, so every bolters would be AP0. Always. Including intercessors' ones, they simply might keep the better range. But to be honest I'd like intercessors and tacs to be the same thing, like there are two kits for ork boyz now and they're still one unit. Most of the primaris stuff, if not all, IMHO should just be an aesthetical thing, a way to have different looking models than classic firstborn ones, rather that unnecessary samey units.

Kaied wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Give all flavors of resilient factions a simple 5+++, Necrons, DG, Custodes, etc. can all be shown as more resilient with the same rule (and we'd get less complaint about RP for example).

Stop giving every factions their unique twist on resiliency thats really just a number being higher or lower than for other factions. Make the game simpler

But then we'll start getting rules that ignore +++, like Railguns/etc ignoring Invulnerable saves, and Transhuman/etc ignoring weapon Strength, and whatever that was recently that ignores rerolls.

as opposed to what we have right now? And my suggestion in no way requires these kind of weapons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm still kinda shocked how a standard Astartes is more Contemptuous than a Custodian. I get it, Balance, and Custodes already have a 2+, to a marines 3+. But the thought behind it that somehow a Marine is better at stopping las guns than a Custodian?

What? Lasguns are AP0, Custodes get a 2+ save against them, marines get a 3+ save.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
No, as they have invested time and models setting up the different Necron subfactions and characters. Going back would mean burning down the effort put on Trazyn, Zahndrekh or the TDK trilogy.

For as disruptive as the Primaries were, their introduction didn't really require the removal or even rewriting of characters and/or factions.

Response 1: You mean like the rewriting Oldcrons to Nucrons in the first place?

Response 2: Then just like Primaris, have both coexist in the universe.

Both Necrons already coexist, the ones that still think they're slaves to the CTan simply aren't focused on because there isn't much TO focus on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
If bolters' problem is AoC, aka no AP bonus under the tactical doctrine against other power armoured armies, let SM weapons (or even just bolters) ignore AoC.

Actually I think doctrines in general could ignore AoC for an easier solution. Heavy weapons would ignore AoC first, then bolt weapons, and lastly melee ones.

well . Why doesn't EVERYONE just ignore AOC?

Because AoC is (mostly) a marine thing, they should know how to bypass it .

Yes it's a band aid, but better than giving bolters, especially all bolters, flat AP-1. Which would be massive and unneeded.

To be fair, I'd keep AoC and get rid of doctrines, so every bolters would be AP0. Always. Including intercessors' ones, they simply might keep the better range. But to be honest I'd like intercessors and tacs to be the same thing, like there are two kits for ork boyz now and they're still one unit. Most of the primaris stuff, if not all, IMHO should just be an aesthetical thing, a way to have different looking models than classic firstborn ones, rather that unnecessary samey units.

You'd rather keep a rule that makes no sense than just have AP-1 on Bolters?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Honestly i'm getting tired of all the "woe is me, my faction isn't as elite as it should be in the fluff because other factions get the same keyword/effect"

It's not the keyword/effect, it's the stats and points value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

It would mean going back to the time in which Necrons were pretty much invincible for all purposes. The change to the 5th ed Necrons was also the change that allowed other factions to get wins against the Necrons.

Incorrect. There were examples of the Imperium destroying Necron tombs and so on before that.

 Tyran wrote:

Plenty of lore since then has shown the IoM as a decaying, degenerate, anti-science, anti-innovation society. My favorite being the Dark Angels constantly mind-wiping Primaris and using them as fodder (while selling out other Chapters to the Tau).

Which doesn't jive with the superior, perfect, incorruptible Primaris as they were originally presented. They had to backtrack on that pretty hard.

 Tyran wrote:
So not really.

Yeah really.

 Tyran wrote:

You would need to reverse the tragedy themes present in the Necron books. A common thread is that because of the passage of time and the wounds caused by the War in Heaven and the rebellion against the C'tan, plus Necron infighting, they are but a shadow of their once might civilization.

This is at its most blatant in the TDK books, in which the remains of a doomed dynasty is forced to flee from an Imperial Crusade.

So? Just have them be outnumbered by a bajillion IG and Imperial Navy.

Tragedy is not about power levels, by the way. The tragedy is that the Necrons lost their souls, not the ability to destroy things.

 Tyran wrote:
Moreover, I do believe we are forgetting about the actual professional soldiers of the Necrons, the Immortals. The Warriors are supposed to be nothing more than conscripted and mindwiped civilians after all while the Immortals actually were the main military force that fought the War in Heaven. And when it comes to Immortals I do believe they should at least be 2W.

But you'll notice that Immortals aren't - tells you that GW's more interested in Necrons as a punching bag for marines than as a coherent element within the setting.

And no, the point is that even a basic Necron Warrior is incredibly dangerous and destructive; that's Necron tech for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Both Necrons already coexist, the ones that still think they're slaves to the CTan simply aren't focused on because there isn't much TO focus on.

From my understanding they actually don't, it's just been consistent canon because of GW's alteration of the fluff to something less enjoyable.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
No, as they have invested time and models setting up the different Necron subfactions and characters. Going back would mean burning down the effort put on Trazyn, Zahndrekh or the TDK trilogy.

For as disruptive as the Primaries were, their introduction didn't really require the removal or even rewriting of characters and/or factions.

Response 1: You mean like the rewriting Oldcrons to Nucrons in the first place?

Response 2: Then just like Primaris, have both coexist in the universe.

Both Necrons already coexist, the ones that still think they're slaves to the CTan simply aren't focused on because there isn't much TO focus on.

1: If they both coexist already, then your prior lore argument doesn't hold water.

2: If Oldcrons still exist, where are my better-than-tac-marines-Warriors? My 2xTacs Immortals? My Pariahs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As a new Necron player, I am willing to participate in a discussion about them. But this thread is about Bolt weapons and those that use them. And sure, some other faction comparison is more than applicable. However, I think there's a bit of subject drift occurring, common when threads such as this one gets long-in-the-tooth.

Take the above as kindly as possible, I just wanted to make a gentle reminder.

Ok.

Marines have gained a wound, an attack in the first round of combat, extra AP depending on the turn, an extra bolter shot at 24", and immunity to the first point of AP.

And people are saying that because the Shuriken Catapult gained 6" range and some AP, the primary Marine weapon totally needs a boost too.

I'm just wondering what Guardians gained to keep their relative power level to Marines. Tau Fire Warriors? Necron Warriors?