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 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly it seems it's the age of the Dreadnought.

God I'm so hyped to try out Heresy for the first time. I'm almost done with my EC list.

Definitely going to have to put a lot of thought into future Night Lords lists... big terror squad units infiltrating in all with chainglaives and volkite is scary. But is it as scary as Sevatar and termies? Or just taking a bunch of despoilers with heavy chainswords?

This is probably an incredibly dumb question, but is your legion's Primarch worth their points cost?

Alpharius right now is definitely worth it, he can CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDD things into the enemy and I’m really hoping the abilities he confers aren’t locked to infantry.

Quite fitting for the master of disguises. What about Fulgrim?

Edit: Jesus Christ my brain quit out on me with this post lmao

regarding who wears what armor.. a Space Marine Legion numbered anywhere from 10,000 to 250,000 marines.

Let us assume, that your average army list is going to have 100 Marines on the table top.

That means it's a TINY FRACTION of the Legion. If the bulk of the Legion is mk IV that doesn't mean they can't have a few hundred stuits of mk VI. people need pull their heads out of their rectum and realize "most common armor mark" does not mean "the only armor mark used!"

 AdmiralRon wrote:
Quite fitting for the master of disguises. What about Fulgrim?

Edit: Jesus Christ my brain quit out on me with this post lmao

Looking at my handy dandy ver 1. Harry tick leak, fulgrim is an absolute duelist as always, but all emp children that can draw los to him can use his leadership value and you can use more reactions.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly it seems it's the age of the Dreadnought.
With T7/2+/5++/6W they are almost impossible to bring down with anything that isn't another Contemptor.

This is also good news for me, as I have 4 contemptors (3 assault cannon/dccw, 1 dual volkite) a volkite deredeo and a double grav bombard leviathan to support my troops.

I wouldn't base any plans off of traitor leaks specifically, we only really know one thing about those and that's that they're getting nerfed.




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 Rihgu wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly it seems it's the age of the Dreadnought.
With T7/2+/5++/6W they are almost impossible to bring down with anything that isn't another Contemptor.

This is also good news for me, as I have 4 contemptors (3 assault cannon/dccw, 1 dual volkite) a volkite deredeo and a double grav bombard leviathan to support my troops.

Dreadnoughts have always been really good, but they're now broken-good.
It takes something like 15 lascannon shots to bring down a Contemptor, and they're only ~200pts depending. It's silly.

As a fan of how contemptors look, I for one welcome our robot sarcophagus overlords.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wouldn't base any plans off of traitor leaks specifically, we only really know one thing about those and that's that they're getting nerfed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rihgu wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Honestly it seems it's the age of the Dreadnought.
With T7/2+/5++/6W they are almost impossible to bring down with anything that isn't another Contemptor.

This is also good news for me, as I have 4 contemptors (3 assault cannon/dccw, 1 dual volkite) a volkite deredeo and a double grav bombard leviathan to support my troops.

Dreadnoughts have always been really good, but they're now broken-good.
It takes something like 15 lascannon shots to bring down a Contemptor, and they're only ~200pts depending. It's silly.

What's the math now on a contemptor based on the leaked statline?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Reposting this from the N&R thread:
For those who have not seen it yet, here is a link to an imgur gallery with a lot of leaked rules pages.
https://imgur.com/a/sRSeyzH

Some things I like, some I don't (mostly in regards to missing units). Regardless, set your Doom-O-Meters to 11.

Seems this has been taken down now, which means it was probably legit.

It was taken down more because the entire document leaked as a coherent PDF, making it redundant.

Ah, had not yet seen the pdf.

So, going by the release schedule rumours, the launch box will be out early July, with the tacticals and Deimos Rhino coming as separate kits in August.

Since I've changed my mind about the launch box, might as well wait until August for my HH plastic fix, just to see if the separate kit happens to differ from the kits included in the Launch box. I've got no need for 40 tacs anyways, and never was that keen on that Spartan either. Deimos Rhino variants and Proteus Land Raider variants is where it's at for me.

I might buy a couple individual beakies from the launch box, just for getting a sense of the new scale/proportions.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
It was taken down more because the entire document leaked as a coherent PDF, making it redundant.

ohh where'd it leak?

The original leak came from 4chan /tg, but it's being shared around a lot in PMs in Discord and such.

 godardc wrote:

 Gert wrote:
A simple way to look at it is this:
"Shut up these are My Dudes they have the armour that exists at the time, go lick a hedgehog."
That will solve all your HH armour problems

The models may be yours, the setting isn't, and this is disrespectful. That's exactly the kind of behavior we don't need in 30k. But apparently with this new edition, we are going to get plenty of that

The hh games are tiny skirmishes. More like spec op's than battles. Short of viii you can easily justify any mark as legions are so huge that even rare marks are in ample supply for the tiny forces game is played with

tneva82 wrote:

 godardc wrote:

 Gert wrote:
A simple way to look at it is this:
"Shut up these are My Dudes they have the armour that exists at the time, go lick a hedgehog."
That will solve all your HH armour problems

The models may be yours, the setting isn't, and this is disrespectful. That's exactly the kind of behavior we don't need in 30k. But apparently with this new edition, we are going to get plenty of that

The hh games are tiny skirmishes. More like spec op's than battles. Short of viii you can easily justify any mark as legions are so huge that even rare marks are in ample supply for the tiny forces game is played with

And even then, the Mk8 helmet - called a "sarum pattern" existed (hence why kharn has one), and was fairly standard issue amongst the world eaters and allied traitor forces operating alongside them and using their supplies.

tneva82 wrote:
The hh games are tiny skirmishes. More like spec op's than battles. Short of viii you can easily justify any mark as legions are so huge that even rare marks are in ample supply for the tiny forces game is played with

That's not actually true though. HH games are usually larger due to the price difference in unit costs compared to 40k.
For 3 similar lists from HH, 7th Ed 40k and 9th Ed 40k we have as follows:
HH - Centurion (50pts), 2x Legion Tacticals of 10 models (250pts) = 300pts
7th - Captain (90pts), 2x Tactical Squads of 10 models (280pts) = 370pts
9th - Captain (85pts), 2x Tactical Squads of 10 models (360pts) = 445pts

Now obviously different rules come into play here. The Legion Tacticals gain access to Fury of the Legion however, the 40k Tacticals all have Combat Squads meaning that the player's zone control is much more effective. Even so, a 145pt difference between HH and 9th Ed 40k is quite significant. I could add a Tactical Support Squad with Volkite Chargers and an Apothecary to my Legion list to equal out with the 9th Ed one, giving me more killing power and some damage reduction for a unit of my choice. Even with the 70pt difference to 7th Ed there a quite a few units I could throw into the list to give me an advantage.

My 3k list is about 60 infantry with a few supporting officers, dreadnoughts and tanks.
That's about a company level engagement (at best) in modern terms - a pretty small skirmish.

You can definitely justify that an mere company is equipped with Mk.VI (or VII late heresy).

Perhaps analagous to someone running a British Commando army in Bolt Action - they were a tiny minority of the British army, but zooming in on a company entirely composed of Commandos is well within the realms of possibility.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
My 3k list is about 60 infantry with a few supporting officers, dreadnoughts and tanks.
That's about a company level engagement (at best) in modern terms - a pretty small skirmish.

A Demi Company of Astartes plus armour support is not a skirmish.

Define skirmish, it's not exactly a great set piece battle with tens of thousands of Astartes that you see in the books.

Besides, that's all besides the point anyway. The question is: is it reasonable for an entire army on the tabletop to all be using rare equipment?
The answer is yes, because a single small company is a tiny force.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Define skirmish, it's not exactly a great set piece battle with tens of thousands of Astartes that you see in the books.

Irregular combat between light troops or outriders e.g. recon forces or cavalry. Just because it's not Isstvan V in scale doesn't mean it's a skirmish and even then if two players are reenacting a scenario such as the Dropsite Massacre or the Calth Muster, they're fighting a snapshot of the wider battle such as the last stand of Ferrus Manus and Clan Avernii or Ventanus' defence of Leptius Numinus.

Besides, that's all besides the point anyway. The question is: is it reasonable for an entire army on the tabletop to all be using rare equipment?
The answer is yes, because a single small company is a tiny force.

Someone said that Heresy games are all tiny battles, which isn't true so that's why I'm being picky. It's true compared to the entire Heresy or events like the Titandeath but they are notable events for a reason.

They are tiny battles - a company engagement is a tiny battle as far as battles go.

Besides - you're again missing the point.
The point is whether or not it's justified having an entire army using rare equipment, such as Mk.VI armour.

Haven't the writers across various rulebooks said that actual tabletop battles usually just represent the 'critical point' of an engagement, with a larger battle occurring off-table all around them?

As kiroththevenger says, the actual tabletop clashes are small in fluff terms even at 3000pt+.

That would make sense - it's about the only way you can justify primarchs and such riding with such tiny elements and the extremely confused array of units a player might be bringing in anything approaching realistic terms.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They are tiny battles - a company engagement is a tiny battle as far as battles go.

Again compared to the likes of the Dropsite Massacre or the Titandeath yes 60 Marines with a bunch of armour is small. But relative to a skirmish battle it is large. A skirmish is akin to what we see with Victory is Vengeance (the HH version of KT) where a small number of troops are engaged in irregular combat on the fringes of a wider battle.
There is also a distinct difference between skirmish tactics and a skirmish battle. Skirmish tactics were employed by non-line troops, in the ancient world these were slingers or javelineers and in the Napoleonic era, these were troops like the British riflemen or French Voltigeurs (i.e. most of what you see in Sharpe). The advent of modern warfare during and after WW1 meant that line troops were eliminated and all soldiers were trained in skirmish tactics and skirmishing became a way to denote small-scale engagements that were irregular i.e. ambushes or raids.
So an army consisting of a Praetor, two supporting officers, 60 Astartes, 3 Dreadnoughts, and 2 Land Raiders is not a skirmish force and it is not a skirmish battle as the opposing side will have at least an equal number of troops.

Gert, I don't know what point you're trying to make. You seem to be arguing against thin air.
You're going off about HH armies vs 40k armies and skirmish-tactics vs line-tactics. Just why?

I don't share your definition of skirmish, but whether or not a game of 40k is a "skirmish" is irrelevant to the point so I didn't oppose the definition you gave earlier.

I've granted you that these are "battles" not "skirmishes" but it doesn't change a single thing about the point of discussion.
60 Astartes is easily small enough that you could justify them all using rare equipment.