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 Formosa wrote:

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

there are 6 core reactions, 2 for movement, 2 for shooting and 2 for assault phases +1 for each of the legion specific ones

Advance and withdrawer for movement phase

return fire and evade (give 5+ damage mitigation role for shrouded) for shooting

overwatch and hold the line for assault phase

That's great news! As bad as 40k is for marines, I might switch to HH. I used to play it during 7th but had a FW mechanicum army that I regrettably sold to help fund a down payment on my house. Of all the armies I've bought and sold in my life, that one hurts the most.

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

Honestly auspex is going to be more of a concern you will need to worry about if you utilize deep strike.

As said, the reactions really arnt that bad and OP as a lot were fearing. I suspect you will be able to do some pretty cheeky combos, but the importance now of pinning is going to be a big deal since pinning a target stops it from also reacting.

Also you are limited to 3 reactions a phase, a single unit can not perform multiple reactions in a turn(I think its turn and not phase ill need to check again) and right now warlords majority of the warlords only provide an extra reaction in a specific phase.
The most power version of this is a generic warlord trait that gives you an extra reaction a turn to use in any phase, but only on the warlord and unit he is in.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

Honestly auspex is going to be more of a concern you will need to worry about if you utilize deep strike.

As said, the reactions really arnt that bad and OP as a lot were fearing. I suspect you will be able to do some pretty cheeky combos, but the importance now of pinning is going to be a big deal since pinning a target stops it from also reacting.

Also you are limited to 3 reactions a phase, a single unit can not perform multiple reactions in a turn(I think its turn and not phase ill need to check again) and right now warlords majority of the warlords only provide an extra reaction in a specific phase.
The most power version of this is a generic warlord trait that gives you an extra reaction a turn to use in any phase, but only on the warlord and unit he is in.

Reactions are one per phase so the interceptor that the Augary scanners give is fairly easy to survive especially if you are doing a deep strike assault.

DSA is basically all your DS units go into one reserve roll and come down at the same time, no more being in b2b they just have to be in conherency and can assault on the turn they drop down in addition no more mishaps, if you land on a unit they can re deploy your models anywhere on the table up to 18" away from your drop point, deep strike assault is going to be powerful and units will need wrapping like 40k

 Formosa wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

Honestly auspex is going to be more of a concern you will need to worry about if you utilize deep strike.

As said, the reactions really arnt that bad and OP as a lot were fearing. I suspect you will be able to do some pretty cheeky combos, but the importance now of pinning is going to be a big deal since pinning a target stops it from also reacting.

Also you are limited to 3 reactions a phase, a single unit can not perform multiple reactions in a turn(I think its turn and not phase ill need to check again) and right now warlords majority of the warlords only provide an extra reaction in a specific phase.
The most power version of this is a generic warlord trait that gives you an extra reaction a turn to use in any phase, but only on the warlord and unit he is in.

Reactions are one per phase so the interceptor that the Augary scanners give is fairly easy to survive especially if you are doing a deep strike assault.

DSA is basically all your DS units go into one reserve roll and come down at the same time, no more being in b2b they just have to be in conherency and can assault on the turn they drop down in addition no more mishaps, if you land on a unit they can re deploy your models anywhere on the table up to 18" away from your drop point, deep strike assault is going to be powerful and units will need wrapping like 40k

true but Auspex does NOT consume a reaction point. so you can use the augary 3 times if you bought 3 of them, which can be pretty rough if you consider what it could end up meaning.
Basically positioning is going to be a lot more important this time around with DS.

Also you are allowed to make 3 perphase, not 1 perphase, its 1 reaction per unit per phase.

Im trying to dig through and find the Augery because i was fairly confident that it mentioned it did not take a reaction point.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

Honestly auspex is going to be more of a concern you will need to worry about if you utilize deep strike.

As said, the reactions really arnt that bad and OP as a lot were fearing. I suspect you will be able to do some pretty cheeky combos, but the importance now of pinning is going to be a big deal since pinning a target stops it from also reacting.

Also you are limited to 3 reactions a phase, a single unit can not perform multiple reactions in a turn(I think its turn and not phase ill need to check again) and right now warlords majority of the warlords only provide an extra reaction in a specific phase.
The most power version of this is a generic warlord trait that gives you an extra reaction a turn to use in any phase, but only on the warlord and unit he is in.

Reactions are one per phase so the interceptor that the Augary scanners give is fairly easy to survive especially if you are doing a deep strike assault.

DSA is basically all your DS units go into one reserve roll and come down at the same time, no more being in b2b they just have to be in conherency and can assault on the turn they drop down in addition no more mishaps, if you land on a unit they can re deploy your models anywhere on the table up to 18" away from your drop point, deep strike assault is going to be powerful and units will need wrapping like 40k

true but Auspex does NOT consume a reaction point. so you can use the augary 3 times if you bought 3 of them, which can be pretty rough if you consider what it could end up meaning.
Basically positioning is going to be a lot more important this time around with DS.

Also you are allowed to make 3 perphase, not 1 perphase, its 1 reaction per unit per phase.

Ohhhh thanks for pointing that out, so each reaction can be used as many times as you have RP left (up to 3 with exception to augary which can exceed it) but each unit can only make one reaction per phase, and yeah Augary does not use a point but does count as a reaction for the amount of reactions the unit can make that phase.

Toofast wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

there are 6 core reactions, 2 for movement, 2 for shooting and 2 for assault phases +1 for each of the legion specific ones

Advance and withdrawer for movement phase

return fire and evade (give 5+ damage mitigation role for shrouded) for shooting

overwatch and hold the line for assault phase

That's great news! As bad as 40k is for marines, I might switch to HH. I used to play it during 7th but had a FW mechanicum army that I regrettably sold to help fund a down payment on my house. Of all the armies I've bought and sold in my life, that one hurts the most.

Oh man, I just love the look of Mechanicum automata! I've been thinking that if I ever go "soup" with my army, I want to include a small patrol detatchment (or whatever is its equivalent in HH) of SoB with that cool black flying submarine of theirs, and a hefty bunch of Mechanicum Automata to support my IXth Legion main force.

Speaking of reactions, just make sure your armies have a healthy supply of pinning weapons and you'll be fine. I'm thinking of getting me some of that Nemesis Bolter goodness, and at least some pinning weaponry for my walkers & support vehicles.

You can never, no matter what, exceed 3 reactions per phase. So lets say you had some how, 3 reactions points and 3 augery.
If you used interceptor 3 times, even though you still have 3 reactions points you cant spend them because you hit your limit of 3 per phase.

Wouldnt that be unless your Warlord Trait allows you to make an additional reaction in X Phase?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Wouldnt that be unless your Warlord Trait allows you to make an additional reaction in X Phase?

Not at all, every army no matter what, gets 1 reaction point per phase. So no matter what you can make a reaction in each phase every turn.

Warlords give you the ability to make a second. Primarchs provide a +1 reactions to a specific phase, like magnus gives one in the assault phase, i think dorn gives one in the shooting phase.
And the generic warlord trait gives you +1 reaction per turn, that you can use in any phase.

Majority of the time armies are only going to have 1 reaction per phase, with the exception to a specific phase where their warlord gives them an extra, but only in that phase. Out of all the rule leaks, i have not seen a single thing that boosts your reaction points in any phase beyond 2, i also have not seen anything that gives you more then a single phase with 2 reactions in it.
GW seems to be very conservative with reaction points.

And quoting the rules again, you may NEVER exceed 3 reactions in a given phase unless you have a special rule that says you can.

Sorry i got that last part backward you can exceed it only if you ahve a specials rule that says you can.

All this talk about being a part of the lore has given me an idea. I will name my legionnaires as "The Angels Vermillion", a small part of the IXth legion who eventually broke off into the same named chapter during the Second Founding. This explains their nonstandard colourscheme. As for why some their chapter symbols differ from the "right one", they got Mk VI to replenish their ranks and adopted the "new" BA symbol (the one used in 40K) before it became the standard one for the Blood Angels during the Second Founding. Heck, few of their vets (like Brother Furian) still hold on to their MkIV and the HH-era chapter symbol, and the banner their Ancient is toting has the RT era Chapter symbol. It's a mismash of the small details, and depicts the shift in the forces' customs, gradually moving further from the commonly adopted Legion uniforms and symbols..

What's the story about Aquilas? Are they strictly Haram in times of HH? I mean, my resin contemptor even has one..

Aquillas is still kosher, its a common symbol among the imperial army and the space marine forces.

Aquillas is even more kosher in the siege of terra where the imperial forces got to bust out the shiny MKVII armor.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Wouldnt that be unless your Warlord Trait allows you to make an additional reaction in X Phase?

Not at all, every army no matter what, gets 1 reaction point per phase. So no matter what you can make a reaction in each phase every turn.

Warlords give you the ability to make a second. Primarchs provide a +1 reactions to a specific phase, like magnus gives one in the assault phase, i think dorn gives one in the shooting phase.
And the generic warlord trait gives you +1 reaction per turn, that you can use in any phase.

Majority of the time armies are only going to have 1 reaction per phase, with the exception to a specific phase where their warlord gives them an extra, but only in that phase. Out of all the rule leaks, i have not seen a single thing that boosts your reaction points in any phase beyond 2, i also have not seen anything that gives you more then a single phase with 2 reactions in it.
GW seems to be very conservative with reaction points.

And quoting the rules again, you may NEVER exceed 3 reactions in a given phase unless you have a special rule that says you can.

Sorry i got that last part backward you can exceed it only if you ahve a specials rule that says you can.

Alright cool, I misread it then when I looked over the rules. I like the limit, removes some of my worries about Reactions.

 AdmiralRon wrote:
Aquillas is even more kosher in the siege of terra where the imperial forces got to bust out the shiny MKVII armor.

Might be interesting to play into that oddball RT angle by building a unit with MkVI body but with MkVII helmets. IIRC there used to be metal minis like that some time before the official MkVII model design materialized. The way I see it, the timeperiod close to the SoT is going to be my jam anyways.

Ohh snap.. what about the crux terminatus? That only existed post-heresy? Aint no way I'm going to mess with my Space Hulk tribute models..

THere are some exceptions though, like i said interceptor could be really scary vs DS armies.
I recall but im not 100% sure, that the augry grants you the use of interceptor, but also does not consume a point to use it. Which if thats the case, the Augery scanner is going to be an auto take

Deepstrike is *nutty* now.
All of your deepstriking forced arrive at once (so one reserve roll for all of them). When doing so you place down one model and scatter it (rerolls if a Vox has LoS to the drop point, RAW the deepstriking unit can use it's own vox!), once scattered you place the rest of the unit anywhere within coherency. Then, you place the rest of the drop force anywhere within 12", no scatter. Then, every enemy within 6" of a dropped unit needs to take a pinning test. Then they can interceptor if they like. Oh and you can still charge after deepstrike.
That means you can very accurately deepstrike units right on top of the enemy if you bring more than one.

To counter balance this Auguries are a bit nutty as well - they give the unit a free Interceptor that ignores all restrictions like max-3 as well. So spam those everywhere and you can really maul a deepstrike force.
Other than the pinning test caused by thr deepstrike (which is not something you can rely on), there's no way to pin these units first as they'll recover at the end of their turn right before you deepstrike.

Overall this creates a deepstrike dynamic which is very much all in or quits. If you try and deepstrike just 1-2 units they won't benefit from the accuracy of multiple units dropping, and you'll just be giving your opponent free interceptor to kill them.

As a side note - snipers are very much in vogue now. They automatically get to choose their target, there's no Look Out Sir, and they're S5 and Rending (5+). They'll be able fairly effectively snipe out support characters and equipment such as the aforementioned Auguries, Vox, Sergeants, Apothecaries, etc.

From speaking to people who have played the new rules, the signficance of reactions is actually a common thread. It creates a lot of cagey play because often your own actions will hurt you more by giving away free actions than they will help.
Want your melee unit to soften up the enemy before a charge with a little volley? Sike, you've just given them a free shooting phase!
This is particularly bad in smaller point games whee your 1-2 reactions can cover a much greater portion of the battlefield than larger games.
Which sounds like everything I fear reactions would be.

That said, huge pinch of salt on this. The rules that have leaked are phase 1 for Traitors and phase 3 for the core rules and Loyalists. Allegedly there's been 5 playtest phases all up.
We can't say how much has changed since phase 3, but it certainly hasn't stayed the same.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/14/heresy-thursday-lead-your-army-into-battle-with-this-never-before-seen-plastic-praetor/
This might be one of the few times I model something without their helmet, because that beakie helmet makes his head look so small lol. Otherwise
it's a pretty sharp looking model.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Deepstrike is *nutty* now.
All of your deepstriking forced arrive at once (so one reserve roll for all of them). When doing so you place down one model and scatter it (rerolls if a Vox has LoS to the drop point, RAW the deepstriking unit can use it's own vox!), once scattered you place the rest of the unit anywhere within coherency. Then, you place the rest of the drop force anywhere within 12", no scatter. Then, every enemy within 6" of a dropped unit needs to take a pinning test. Then they can interceptor if they like. Oh and you can still charge after deepstrike.
That means you can very accurately deepstrike units right on top of the enemy if you bring more than one.

To counter balance this Auguries are a bit nutty as well - they give the unit a free Interceptor that ignores all restrictions like max-3 as well. So spam those everywhere and you can really maul a deepstrike force.
Other than the pinning test caused by thr deepstrike (which is not something you can rely on), there's no way to pin these units first as they'll recover at the end of their turn right before you deepstrike.

Overall this creates a deepstrike dynamic which is very much all in or quits. If you try and deepstrike just 1-2 units they won't benefit from the accuracy of multiple units dropping, and you'll just be giving your opponent free interceptor to kill them.

As a side note - snipers are very much in vogue now. They automatically get to choose their target, there's no Look Out Sir, and they're S5 and Rending (5+). They'll be able fairly effectively snipe out support characters and equipment such as the aforementioned Auguries, Vox, Sergeants, Apothecaries, etc.

From speaking to people who have played the new rules, the signficance of reactions is actually a common thread. It creates a lot of cagey play because often your own actions will hurt you more by giving away free actions than they will help.
Want your melee unit to soften up the enemy before a charge with a little volley? Sike, you've just given them a free shooting phase!
This is particularly bad in smaller point games whee your 1-2 reactions can cover a much greater portion of the battlefield than larger games.
Which sounds like everything I fear reactions would be.

That said, huge pinch of salt on this. The rules that have leaked are phase 1 for Traitors and phase 3 for the core rules and Loyalists. Allegedly there's been 5 playtest phases all up.
We can't say how much has changed since phase 3, but it certainly hasn't stayed the same.

THis is why im excited to use the crimson guard.
You can start it off with a drop pod coming in, which iirc, i need to check again, drop pods reduce the scatter by half, so you can kick things off with an osiron drop pod, then drop in all your other units from DSR WHICH, Crimson guard gives your arriving units fear, to really help push that pinning test.

And yes, snipers are going to be very much a unit that you are never NOT going to regret taking.

As for assaulting outta deep strike, its cool, and im going to enjoy using it, but i also know its not healthy for the game. Being able to just drop it from deep strike like that then chage is totally insane.

About that deep strike.. Are dreadnought drop pods still a thing?

 tauist wrote:
About that deep strike.. Are dreadnought drop pods still a thing?

yes...yes they are lol. But, idk if they can assault outta them, i dont recall.

Yeah you can assault out of a Dreadnought Droppod still

Any Dreadnought still too, so Levis are legit.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Yeah you can assault out of a Dreadnought Droppod still

Any Dreadnought still too, so Levis are legit.

Im excited for Osirons with plasma.
If traitor leaks are true im gonna have fun shooting out S10 plasma and slicing things up with the S14 sword muhahaha.

The traitor leaks are phase 1, vs phase 3 for the loyalists, and allegedly 5 phases in total.

We know the Traitors definitely haven't stayed the same.
They've almost certainly been toned down. Apparently Loyalist phase 1 was similar to traitors, but got reigned in.

Oh yeah, i know they have not stayedthe same, im banking on that a lot of the core concepts have remained though.

Like Tsons getting some sort of special plasma.

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

Have the rules changed a lot, like, invalidating lists and armies or is it just a twerked edition ?
Seeing as the dread have like 6 wounds, is there a way to take them down as "quick" as before or have they become like super indestructible ?

 godardc wrote:

 kodos wrote:
is it that bad as some thought with the amount of reactions there are?

Have the rules changed a lot, like, invalidating lists and armies or is it just a twerked edition ?
Seeing as the dread have like 6 wounds, is there a way to take them down as "quick" as before or have they become like super indestructible ?

Most armies are still legal.

There are some units which are rather conspicuous by their absence. Perhaps most notable Castafferrum Boxnaughts are gone, as are any legion specific units that don't have official models (Iron Havocs, Fulmentarus, etc).

Dreadnoughts are disgustingly durable now if they keep their playtest 3 stats. Contemptors having T7/2+ means they're all but immune to any small and medium firepower, and 5++/6W means they can shrug off far more AT firepower than any tank can hope to! Of course Leviathons are even worse, IIRC it takes more lascannons to kill a Leviathon than it does many super heavies!

Here's hoping the rules are bogus

I am 99.9% sure that these phase 1 and 3 leaks are legit.

I'm also 99.9% sure that these are playtest and that some things will change come final release.
The question is only what and how much.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I am 99.9% sure that these phase 1 and 3 leaks are legit.

I'm also 99.9% sure that these are playtest and that some things will change come final release.
The question is only what and how much.

Im with you there, personally i think that Phase 3 are more or less going to be the rules, and that phase 4 and 5 were just point tweeks and minor corrections.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I am 99.9% sure that these phase 1 and 3 leaks are legit.

I'm also 99.9% sure that these are playtest and that some things will change come final release.
The question is only what and how much.

Im with you there, personally i think that Phase 3 are more or less going to be the rules, and that phase 4 and 5 were just point tweeks and minor corrections.

I agree, I don't expect much to change.
Although I do expect Dreadnought durability to change if there's two braincells to rub together somewhere in the design studio.