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Replace "neckbeard" with "Customer who's spent many thousands of dollars on a product that they've loved and advocated for for over 20 years, who is now dissatisfied with certain decisions the owning company has recently made."

But go with "neckbeard" if it pumps your dopamine, sure.

. . .

The truth is they could drastically reduce the amount of datasheets if they just wrote them better. Why are Intercessors and Assault Intercessors a different Datasheet, and not just a single Datasheet with a extra wargear option?

Back in the golden days, I had ONE Captain "Datasheet" option, but somehow he might have had MORE options available to him than the current paradigm where there are 8(?) Separate Captain Datasheets.

Karol wrote:

Wyldhunt 804223 11332079 wrote:
Surely you'd be better off just taking those promising marine recruits and giving them some training and some power armor. Sure, they won't spit acid or be able to eat brains to gather intel, but you also won't kill off 90% of your recruits via over-the-top training and dangerous implantation surgeries either.

Without the training, conditioning and implants the humans in power armour would not be able to perform the jobs only space marines can perform. a force of unaugmented, GK without the proper training would just turn in to 100+ warp gates the moment they face any demonic force.

Oh, I'm the first person to make the argument that marines are useful because they can do things that normal humans literally can't. They can wade through flooded areas and climb huge towers to strike from unexpected angles. They can eat brains to gain intel quckly. Plus they're tanky and killy and can squeeze a whole lot of manpower into the confines of a ship or sewer or what have you. That's kind of the point I was making about liking their tacticool special gear; it makes marines feel like they're wielding weapons and gear that guardsmen would struggle to get the most out of, and that helps you see why the imperium bothers killing off so many aspirants to produce a handful of marines.

But a lot of lore has them just like, fighting on a conventional battlefield, and it does sometimes feel like they're an inefficient use of resources in that role. Like, in MtG terms, they've got good offense/defense and a special rule that bypasses certain niche defensive strategies. But they also cost a ton of mana to the point that they're considered a bad card. Or in less confusing terms, each marine candidate seems to have the kind of plot armor and talent that would make them a guardsman on par with named guard characters. Yet the marine-making process ends up killing most of the candidates. So for every marine, you could've had 10 Marbo types working as guardsmen or storm troopers or whatever. In any book that shows marine aspirants undergoing their training/trials, I find myself screaming at the chapter to just send these guys off to become inquisitorial henchmen instead of getting them killed.

GK specifically are probably a bad example given that 100% of them being psykers raises a lot of variables that aren't present with, say, Space Wolves.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
How about we just DoDo the Firstborn and be done with it? That's what I'd like to see.

Except that restartes are already the Doh… Doh… marines, so, how about we make the new models fit the OG lore and retcon the heretical Cawlsian nonsense and be done with it?

Cawl isn't a heretic, he just doesn't keep the setting infinitely stagnate for the neckbeards that refuse any change in the setting.

I actually liked that they've moved the story forward a bit. I even like Cawl as he's depicted in the Horus Heresy books. But the primaris fluff and his part in it is pretty awkward and pretty clearly written to explain away scale creep rather than serve a story someone really wanted to tell. I don't think we can retcon the primaris lore much; it has been front and center in too many novels and too much lore. We can, however, say that the primaris have been so thoroughly integrated into the astartes that there's functionally no difference between firstborn and primaris. Or just say that all living marines are either young enough to be primaris or else crossed the rubicon at some point. Let "primaris" be a non-essential tidbit of lore that players can pretty much ignore if they want to. Having separate primaris and non-primaris keywords and units instead hilights the distinction and makes it more relevant, which is sort of the opposite of what I want. Sure. Bob is a firstborn, and Frank is a primaris. Turns out being a little taller and having a couple extra organs still only makes you T4 W2, so no big deal. Those interceptors over there? Two of them are firstborn. Turns out it's not that hard to make primaris tech slightly smaller.

I voted yes.

Surprised even myself...

 Insectum7 wrote:
Replace "neckbeard" with "Customer who's spent many thousands of dollars on a product that they've loved and advocated for for over 20 years, who is now dissatisfied with certain decisions the owning company has recently made."

But go with "neckbeard" if it pumps your dopamine, sure.

You'd have a point if GW weren't making gakky decisions for several years and yet Primaris are somehow the breaking point. Neckbeard fits perfectly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:
Cawl is obviously a heretic, and could be represented that way, should be…

But I guess any progress is good progress, huh? Just have to go somewhere, huh, for the sake of change, right, because new is always better when attention spans are measured in twits rather than chapters, right?

Yeah, neckbeard… sure. Keep your insults to yourself.

Cawl is an obvious heretic.

Welcome to the ignore pile, and plague is right.

You fit my post exactly.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You'd have a point if GW weren't making gakky decisions for several years and yet Primaris are somehow the breaking point. Neckbeard fits perfectly.

So anyone who doesn't like the styling or lore of Primaris is a neckbeard because... GW has made bad decisions prior to it too?

That's a non sequitur. And just plain dumb.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Replace "neckbeard" with "Customer who's spent many thousands of dollars on a product that they've loved and advocated for for over 20 years, who is now dissatisfied with certain decisions the owning company has recently made."

But go with "neckbeard" if it pumps your dopamine, sure.

You- have a point -

Please dont quote the guy, unpleasant edgelords deserve only the ignore button

 catbarf wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You'd have a point if GW weren't making gakky decisions for several years and yet Primaris are somehow the breaking point. Neckbeard fits perfectly.

So anyone who doesn't like the styling or lore of Primaris is a neckbeard because... GW has made bad decisions prior to it too?

That's a non sequitur. And just plain dumb.

When they're somehow defending all of GW's decisions until THAT point, 100% yes I stand by my statement.

Eldarsif wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 oni wrote:
Something needs to happen. GW cannot stay on the present course they're on with SM's. They cannot keep adding more and more units. Infinite expansion is not realistic.

Why do SM need new stuff? I mean new units with new datasheets. Most of the other factions' releases are just new kits of already existing units/models. And primaris already have a pretty wide range.

Replacing in terms of updating, instead of expanding. GW (and the fanbase) lived for decades without tons of new SM stuff every year, the new line of models shouldn't be the excuse to throw countless new kits every edition, which are totally unnecessary both modelwise and rulewise.

Sadly that is the MO for GW Poster boys and gals. I mean, in AoS we are just three editions in and already we have Stormcast(70+) closing in on the number of units Space Marines have(100+).

The curse of the poster factions is that they get way too much new toys that just makes the faction bloated and unwieldy.

Exactly why I quit AoS. I started a Stormcast army, couldn't keep up, and eventually found myself overwhelmed with too many options and a feeling that GW doesn't have a plan or any idea what direction they want to go with Stormcast. The whole Stormcast range feels disjointed and incohesive.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

When they're somehow defending all of GW's decisions until THAT point, 100% yes I stand by my statement.

Find anyone who defended all of GWs decisions through 7th edition, lol.

How is Cawl a heretic? The Mechanicus has tampered with gene-seed before and does continuous research on it.
The one thing Cawl might actually have done that is legitimately heretical is the Cawl Inferior as it is potentially an A.I. but that's not confirmed and is just suspicion on Guilliman's part.

 Insectum7 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

When they're somehow defending all of GW's decisions until THAT point, 100% yes I stand by my statement.

Find anyone who defended all of GWs decisions through 7th edition, lol.

I'll bet ya a case of beer that I can probably find some after a day of searching here. The 40k subreddits aren't really negative too so there's gonna be some success there.

AI is part of it.

My dudes and sisters and imperial guard hold that Cawl could not have done, or been, what he/it has done and is without chaos pulling his strings.

Prove this wrong.

 jeff white wrote:
AI is part of it.

My dudes and sisters and imperial guard hold that Cawl could not have done, or been, what he/it has done and is without chaos pulling his strings.

Prove this wrong.

Your dudes sound as imaginative and creative as the hundreds of fanmade Chapters that don't like the Imperium but fight for it for humanity and also have an unknown founding and totally don't like the Codex and hate the Inquisition but nothing bad happens to them.

 Insectum7 wrote:

The truth is they could drastically reduce the amount of datasheets if they just wrote them better. Why are Intercessors and Assault Intercessors a different Datasheet, and not just a single Datasheet with a extra wargear option?

Back in the golden days, I had ONE Captain "Datasheet" option, but somehow he might have had MORE options available to him than the current paradigm where there are 8(?) Separate Captain Datasheets.

I wish I could exalt this more than once.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
How about we just DoDo the Firstborn and be done with it? That's what I'd like to see.

Except that restartes are already the Doh… Doh… marines, so, how about we make the new models fit the OG lore and retcon the heretical Cawlsian nonsense and be done with it?

Cawl isn't a heretic, he just doesn't keep the setting infinitely stagnate for the neckbeards that refuse any change in the setting.

In the lore of the Imperium as established before his introduction, Cawl is definitely a heretic to a lot of the Imperium. The Space Marines are the holy warriors of the Imperium's god, designed by his hand and created in his image. Then a human comes along and says he can make them better. That is a human claiming he can improve the creation of God. In a setting where some people are regarded as heretics because they thought that adding a hot plate for making tea to the interior of a chimera, which was not in the original STC design, was a good idea.

 Gert wrote:
How is Cawl a heretic? The Mechanicus has tampered with gene-seed before and does continuous research on it.
The one thing Cawl might actually have done that is legitimately heretical is the Cawl Inferior as it is potentially an A.I. but that's not confirmed and is just suspicion on Guilliman's part.

That is like saying someone isn't a war criminal, because others did war crimes before. W40k is a setting where the church can have official armies made out of men, because their write says "no man under arms". Different branches of imperial armies can not own land raiders, because a writ says that all of them should be given and crewed only by marines. In order to legally temper with a gene seed, one would have to have an okey to do so. And Cawl may even have it. There is only one problem with him, primaris and the lore about them. He was added in to the lore after 30+ years of the game and its lore existing. And the possible okey for him to do so, arrived in lore form after primaris entered the game. He has this distinct feeling of an OG character added to already existing lore, who ends up out doing everyone at everything. Better gene father then the Emperor, dunk on Bile as far upgrading marine goes, reverts exterminatus and planets being eaten by tyranids in under a century.

And the worse part about it, is the that lore changes are only made to phase out armies that people already bought. If primaris were just a better scale marines, a new style of MK suit of armour and a new bolter, people would have been largely fine with them.

Folks, only warning: please be polite to one another, this thread has been generating its fair share of alerts.

Karol wrote:

That is like saying someone isn't a war criminal, because others did war crimes before.

No it isn't.

W40k is a setting where the church can have official armies made out of men, because their write says "no man under arms". Different branches of imperial armies can not own land raiders, because a writ says that all of them should be given and crewed only by marines. In order to legally temper with a gene seed, one would have to have an okey to do so. And Cawl may even have it. There is only one problem with him, primaris and the lore about them. He was added in to the lore after 30+ years of the game and its lore existing. And the possible okey for him to do so, arrived in lore form after primaris entered the game. He has this distinct feeling of an OG character added to already existing lore, who ends up out doing everyone at everything. Better gene father then the Emperor, dunk on Bile as far upgrading marine goes, reverts exterminatus and planets being eaten by tyranids in under a century.

New Thing Bad is not limited to Cawl and it never has been. Large parts of the 40k hobby are anathema to change for one reason or the other and anything new will always be bad and they will always find justification.

And the worse part about it, is the that lore changes are only made to phase out armies that people already bought. If primaris were just a better scale marines, a new style of MK suit of armour and a new bolter, people would have been largely fine with them.

They absolutely wouldn't because the exact same thing that's happening in HH circles right now with the potentially upscale MkVI would have happened in the 40k circles.

Arcanis161 wrote:
They'll probably move Firstborn to their own game system before they make a separate codex.

Honestly, IMO, Legends should have been its own game system a la 30k. It's own ruleset based on older editions, with rules for models that no longer exist (and older ones that still do), and just semi-regular campaign books based on the classic battlefields (Vraks, Armageddon, First Tyrannic War, Badab War, etc.)

a "Warhammer 40k: Historicals" line would be intreasting.

 Gert wrote:

And the worse part about it, is the that lore changes are only made to phase out armies that people already bought. If primaris were just a better scale marines, a new style of MK suit of armour and a new bolter, people would have been largely fine with them.

They absolutely wouldn't because the exact same thing that's happening in HH circles right now with the potentially upscale MkVI would have happened in the 40k circles.

Getting off topic but…

I have seen concern about parts being compatible but that’s it. Just like I didn’t see a wave of complaints about deathwatch being taller.

Should they do it? No. There are many players who have used Primaris marines to supplement that old squatted Space Marine army they have had for decades and it would run the risk of alienating them.

Will they do it? Possibly. GW doesn't care about alienating it's customer base. It's a great way to sell more books to players you know will buy them. It's a great way to begin squatting those old sculpts that take up space on the shelves but nobody really buys any more. A great way to start to phase out those old molds that will need to be renewed eventually and finally a great way to get rid of a line that quite frankly, looks really silly when side by side to a Primaris model.

For the moment, the firstborn make the Marines look really large, varied etc. As we get more and more (and more) Primaris marines, they'll eventually start to pull the plug on the rest or move them into a different gaming system.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Gert wrote:

And the worse part about it, is the that lore changes are only made to phase out armies that people already bought. If primaris were just a better scale marines, a new style of MK suit of armour and a new bolter, people would have been largely fine with them.

They absolutely wouldn't because the exact same thing that's happening in HH circles right now with the potentially upscale MkVI would have happened in the 40k circles.

Getting off topic but…

I have seen concern about parts being compatible but that’s it. Just like I didn’t see a wave of complaints about deathwatch being taller.

There were absolutely complaints about the Deathwatch being taller.

I find this Cawl hate rather funny. It's been long established that someone has been tinkering with Space Marine Geneseed for some time. Remember that cursed 21st Founding? Cawl is just a new name behind the existing lore along with the perfecting of the new line of Geneseed in the form for the Primaris Marine.

yeah, and the tinkering was illegal. The , it was me all along, thing is not something that adds much to the lore, and it is down right bad if it goes and warps the core rules of the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague 804223 11333547 wrote:
There were absolutely complaints about the Deathwatch being taller.

Crow looks like a gigant standing next to other GK, even those in termintor armour. Thankfuly he was locked behind a limited box and is not needed to build a GK army, so it isn't much of a problem.

alextroy wrote:I find this Cawl hate rather funny. It's been long established that someone has been tinkering with Space Marine Geneseed for some time. Remember that cursed 21st Founding? Cawl is just a new name behind the existing lore along with the perfecting of the new line of Geneseed in the form for the Primaris Marine.

See, the cursed founding lore is kind of what makes me feel Cawl is a bit cringe. Before Cawl and the primaris were introduced, you had a few bits of lore discussing attempts to modify the recipe for making marines. You had the cursed founding which was full of concerning mutations and seemingly unusual amounts of bad luck. And then you had Fabius whose creations were always sort of framed as a horrifying perversion of the "proper" process. The theme behind both of these seemed to be that messing with the marine making process was a big no-no, an abomination against the Emperor that either produced monsters or misfortune.

But then Cawl was introduced and just kind of went, "Naaaah. Making better marines is fine actually. In fact, I got rid of some of those pesky gene flaws while I was at it!"

That said, I do like how they've basically retconned the cursed founding as being a big batch of Cawl's experiments, but it still felt like their out-of-nowhere tech priest character was...
* Making Fabius look less competent.
* Uprooting the previously mentioned themes of messing with marine creation being a Bad Idea.
* Doing the above because GW had dragged their feet on truescale marines so long that they felt the need to explain a size and armor change in-universe.

Karol wrote:yeah, and the tinkering was illegal. The , it was me all along, thing is not something that adds much to the lore, and it is down right bad if it goes and warps the core rules of the setting.

I mean, "illegal." Pretty much every human in the imperium is a heretic if you ask the right ecclesiarchal sect or quirky inquisitor. The guys who worked on the cursed founding could say that they had a permission slip from Guilliman, and their opposers could say that Guilliman didn't have the authority to sign such a permission slip. So unless we really want to hash out the intentionally comically convoluted laws of the imperium to come to determine whether or not the cursed founding was conclusively a heretical act, it just is what it is.

As mentioned above, I actually kind of like that they made the cursed founding part of Cawl's research. Mostly because, if we're going to have awkward primaris lore, at least they addressed that particular loose end. Like, that chapter of extra big marines were probably proto primaris. Alright, that fits well enough. I like that better than there being a completely unrelated bigger-marine experiment that just failed because they didn't have golden boy Cawl supervising it.

I mean, "illegal." Pretty much every human in the imperium is a heretic if you ask the right ecclesiarchal sect or quirky inquisitor. The guys who worked on the cursed founding could say that they had a permission slip from Guilliman, and their opposers could say that Guilliman didn't have the authority to sign such a permission slip. So unless we really want to hash out the intentionally comically convoluted laws of the imperium to come to determine whether or not the cursed founding was conclusively a heretical act, it just is what it is.

yes. And there is gradation to everything. There is a huge difference between a sprocket 8 menial worker, turning a sprocket number 7. And someone modifying the gene seed of space marines. It is like a tribal world having faith that includes the golden sky warrior having , non ironic, two eagle heads. And someone else claiming that the emperor was just a philosophical concept, who got invented by high lords of terra to control the population.

Imperial laws are clear as day how they work. They may not be clear to people who live in some parts of the world, but to me they are 100% logical. Also law system like the imperial one don't work on . we were told we can do something. If you don't have papers you get blammed, on the spot most of the time. Sometimes you get blammed anyway, and then the document is returned to the vault and the internal documents of an effice report with high regret that proper papers were not delivered on time.

This needs to be done:

Compile all factions which can´t be classified as SM in a single book. Why? Well, then GW can do what it really wants to do all the time: Publish on a regular basis SM books with a slightly different flavour. Trust me it will be great. Brave New World indeed!

Jokes aside I couldn´t care less. When I spent hobby time with 40K it´s with the Battle Bible or a custom rule set of 3rd-6th. This means Primaris don´t exist for me which is a blessing.

Wyldhunt wrote:
That said, I do like how they've basically retconned the cursed founding as being a big batch of Cawl's experiments

Have you got a cite for that, chief? Haven't seen anything about it, but I haven't read all the post-Steroid Boy material, especially novels.

Just get rid of the old dumpy marines.

And first born is such a stupid term for the old marines. Marines aren’t born, they are made.