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Is GW's recent lore stating that MK VI armour was the most numerous during the late HH a retcon?

Discuss here instead of clogging up the N&R thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My own take: I suspect this will be very hard to prove as a retcon, as I think folks will be hard-pressed to find any outright statement of the most common late Heresy armour prior to the recent one. It goes against previous expectations that it would be one of the pre-Heresy MKs that were obviously the most common at the beginning of the HH, but I'm not sure if that is technically a retcon.

Total numbers of Astartes going into the Heresy was probably in the ballpark of 2-3 million. There were obviously massive combat losses during the Heresy of an unknown level (alongside dangerously rapid recruitment of an unknown level). However, It is very likely the total numbers dropped below 2 million and very plausible they dropped below 1 million towards the end of the Heresy. I don't think it is unreasonable for the Mechanicus (on both sides) to have cranked out at least 200,000 suits. Note there only has to be one more MkVI than the next most common pattern for this statement to be true, and if you had 1,000,000 Astartes divided evenly over the 5 widespread MKs, there would be 200,000 suits of each. I've discounted MKI and MKVII- technically MKVII is also being introduced at this stage, although it should be very rare and probably represents only a few thousand suits worn in the Solar theatre, and MKI should only be worn by the absolutely desperate with nothing else left in the armoury but the cermonial suit at the back.

Eh, its plausible within the pre-existing lore, and at worst the softest of retcons.

Someone did some work to catalogue the MkVI references so maybe we can put it to bed now.

Thanks for the quotes!

Was anyone arguing that MKVI didn't exist at all during the HH? I only saw the people disgruntled with it being recently listed as the most common mark by the late Heresy. The latter is probably new, the former has never been true as far as I know, as those quotes point out.

To be fair, I skipped over some of the discussion.

If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

The argument was that it was limited and only the Raven Guard and, somehow, the Alpha Legion wore them in any significant numbers.

 Flinty wrote:
If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

Going to have to dig for the models, but the box cover didn't have beakies.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:SpaceMarine1989E.jpg
I'm not even sure those fall into a recognizable 'mark' of armor.

The box of space marines is definitely beakies on the cover
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/542855/space-marine
but not in the box- '200 marines in mk 7 armour'
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/374292/space-marine
Though I think the bikers are beakies, just to make it weird.

I'd think you would need to first establish as what counts as "official Horus Heresy lore". The answer to this question will undoubtedly depend on the year when a person got into the 40K hobby.

In short?

Kind of. Ish. It depends.

MKs 1-3 were what they were. Good enough, but not perfect.

Mk IV was, possibly still is depending upon who you ask, the Pinnacle - at least at the time. It built upon and improved many of the gubbins of its processors.

MK V of course isn’t, strictly speaking, an interaction unto itself. Yet in its own way and for the situation it did become oddly standardised.

Mk VI? It embraced all the design pressures of its predecessors, and in certain ways improved them. More and arguably most importantly? It was very easy not only to produce but maintain.

It’s that last bit which counts the most. I could issue you with armour so good that in a given battle it won’t degrade. But, post battle? It’ll still need repairs to keep it at least close to peak performance. Mk VI did both with relative ease.

 tauist wrote:
I'd think you would need to first establish as what counts as "official Horus Heresy lore". The answer to this question will undoubtedly depend on the year when a person got into the 40K hobby.

You kids and your weird 'primarchs!' In our day General Horus had five Legiones Astartes Chapters under his direct command, and Ultramarines weren't even part of the First Founding.

Sounds to me like the war was fought with the earlier marks but on terra most troops wore MK VI.

So any legion on Terra woulda had MK VI, this would mean the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, White Scars Space Wolves (they weren't present for the battle of Terra but went to Terra to "rest and refit" before throwing themselves at Horus) as well as the traitor legions whom would have supplied newly raised troops with the MK VI.

we know the raven guard made heavy use of it as well so it stands to reason it was produced in locations other then Mars. but I suspect the dark angels and ultramarines mostly where using MK IV armor. that said the Legions where biiig thus I can't say I can what legion wears what armor, it's a tinsy slice of a Legion.

I was under the impression that during the Crusade they were using Mk2-3. Mk4 came out shortly before Horus turned traitor and he made sure he and his allies got at least a good share of it. Mk6 was in development when Horus turned and so Raven Guard had some at Isstvan V and afterwards. However, the most common armour pattern was not a pattern at all, it was field refits and regional production stuff that wasn't as good. This armour became Mk5 Heresy Pattern and it's the one with all the studs and the reason it looks the same is because eventually the techpriests settled on a mostly common design. Mk6, as someone pointed out was being produced on Terra/Mars so any Legion near there would have naturally gotten the good stuff whenever it became available.

This is all why the heresy was better let as myth and legend and the bloated crap fest it has become. Arguing about made up stuff as is it was real history, they can say what they like about it, say they all wore mk6 or even say primaris were there all along. It’s all made up.


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And the original space marine box set has all the marines in it in mk6.

Andykp wrote:
This is all why the heresy was better let as myth and legend and the bloated crap fest it has become. Arguing about made up stuff as is it was real history, they can say what they like about it, say they all wore mk6 or even say primaris were there all along. It’s all made up.


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And the original space marine box set has all the marines in it in mk6.

England and America, two nations divided by one language...

Retcon of HH Novel and Black book lore yeah but not of white dwarf lore, novels take precedence if they are from first person in the head perspective, then the black books as they are written in universe as a historical piece (so can be wrong in universe) and lastly is white dwarf which is marketing with little thought given to consistency with the lore, at least this appears to be how it is.

 Formosa wrote:
Retcon of HH Novel and Black book lore yeah but not of white dwarf lore, novels take precedence if they are from first person in the head perspective, then the black books as they are written in universe as a historical piece (so can be wrong in universe) and lastly is white dwarf which is marketing with little thought given to consistency with the lore, at least this appears to be how it is.

Nah. There is not such precedence. It is all made up. Iliad is not more accurate account of War of Troy than an article in a history magazine because it is written from perspective of the participants.

 Formosa wrote:
Retcon of HH Novel and Black book lore yeah but not of white dwarf lore, novels take precedence if they are from first person in the head perspective, then the black books as they are written in universe as a historical piece (so can be wrong in universe) and lastly is white dwarf which is marketing with little thought given to consistency with the lore, at least this appears to be how it is.

Where did the BL novels or FW black books previously state that a different armour mark was more common by the Siege of Terra? That is the premise being challenged.

 Flinty wrote:
If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

^That's what I recall too. The distictly remember my Epic collection having both mk6 and Mk7s from two different generations of manufacture.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

^That's what I recall too. The distictly remember my Epic collection having both mk6 and Mk7s from two different generations of manufacture.

This is from GW's 1991 catalogue, and specifically calls it mark 7 (link). Were the ones with Rhinos & Land Raiders the MK6 ones, and were they earlier or later?

beast_gts wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

^That's what I recall too. The distictly remember my Epic collection having both mk6 and Mk7s from two different generations of manufacture.

This is from GW's 1991 catalogue, and specifically calls it mark 7 (link). Were the ones with Rhinos & Land Raiders the MK6 ones, and were they earlier or later?

Earlier, the first epic infantry models were the mark 6 with LANDRAIDER sand rhinos on the sprue. The busier sprue with terminators and bikes and stuff and heavy weapons came later.

 Haighus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Retcon of HH Novel and Black book lore yeah but not of white dwarf lore, novels take precedence if they are from first person in the head perspective, then the black books as they are written in universe as a historical piece (so can be wrong in universe) and lastly is white dwarf which is marketing with little thought given to consistency with the lore, at least this appears to be how it is.

Where did the BL novels or FW black books previously state that a different armour mark was more common by the Siege of Terra? That is the premise being challenged.

Some of the latest siege of terra novels have indicated the fighting being done, by both sides, are being done by fairly new recruits (warhawk IIRC notes the majority of the White scars, as for the battle of terra, are NOT from Chigorras) we know MK VI armor was introduced around the time of the heresy, and that the Imperial Fists made a point to capture as much material as they could on Mars before retreating from mars. We can assume that the forges on Mars and the forges on Terra would be producing the latest marks of battle armor. thus chances all the new Legionarres raised by the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars (whom likely by time Horuus arrived made up the bulk of their forces) would have been equipped with MK VI armor. thus yes it's entirely reasonable to assume the bulk of the loyalists had MK VI armor.

Likewise, Mars fell fairly early and the Traitor Legions likewise where massivly expanding. and likely the new recruits would have been given the newest armor coming off the forges.

So yeah the MK VI dominating on Terra makes sense when you realize that by the battle of terra the Majority of the Legionrres Astartes where not crusade veterns but raised after the fact

beast_gts wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

^That's what I recall too. The distictly remember my Epic collection having both mk6 and Mk7s from two different generations of manufacture.

This is from GW's 1991 catalogue, and specifically calls it mark 7 (link). Were the ones with Rhinos & Land Raiders the MK6 ones, and were they earlier or later?

Earlier, I think. Most of my rhinos and LRs are out of the original box, and the bottoms had some of the ugly green plastic still visible. Well, the ones I could find. Found my orks and guard, and a few multi-faction mixed sprues (which is still weird), and the 'battlegroup box' sprues (they sold guard, eldar, chaos and orks as mixed box for a while, but that was definitely later on), but few marines. Did find a couple of the mk7 sprues, and it does look to me like the assault marines on that sprue are in mk6.
Not sure where the rulebook is either, much to my annoyance

The marines in 1st Edition Space Marine were MkVI. At that time, there were only 1 model for all Marines, you used a coloured flag on the models base to denote if a unit was Assault, devastator, tactical etc.

The expanded model range, with the combo kit featuring terminators, assult marines, bikes etc came later. This combo kit had MkVII as tacticals and MkVI as Assault

And MKVI as Devastator.

From my memory of the fluff the armour was tested by Raven guard over Death Guard objections (they wanted a heavier armour), put into production, the type started to go out, Mars fell, then a raid secured a large number of suits for Terra, the traitors who mattered continued to be supplied, so a lot of the marines hitting Earth had mk6, where at least a quarter of a million were wearing the newer Mk6 as well.

Imagery though, while traitor armour is all over the place they don't seem to like wearing the beak. Personally I would use spare heads from other Mk's on Mk6 bodies for any new traitors I built.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mk VI? It embraced all the design pressures of its predecessors, and in certain ways improved them. More and arguably most importantly? It was very easy not only to produce but maintain.

It’s that last bit which counts the most. I could issue you with armour so good that in a given battle it won’t degrade. But, post battle? It’ll still need repairs to keep it at least close to peak performance. Mk VI did both with relative ease.

Not just maintain, it often required no maintenance to begin with as the designer was sane enough to put the cables that ran on the outside of the plating under it. So yeah, when a stray shot or even snagging the limb on a concrete corner or piece of rebar can disable it, an alternative that doesn't need to replace half of the wiring after every engagement sure is easier to maintain

 Haighus wrote:
Was anyone arguing that MKVI didn't exist at all during the HH? I only saw the people disgruntled with it being recently listed as the most common mark by the late Heresy. The latter is probably new, the former has never been true as far as I know, as those quotes point out.

Mostly stupid "muh square knees" elitists upset they won't get to gak all over new players how wrong their army is because of one tiny, invisible without a microscope detail on mini being somehow "inappropriate" for the period. People should just start ignoring salty gatekeepers bashing others on the basis "because I say so" (certainly not real fluff) and stop giving them platform. They are toxic cancer in the hobby, especially seeing how drastically the portrayal of Heresy changed over time, making any claims to there being one canon people should just stick to utterly laughable.

Hell, someone here asked about old Raven Guard HH era markings a few days ago, these look nothing like FW ones and would probably get him bashed too despite being official by types angry new players will get to use cheap, good proportions Mk 6 now and we can't have them let any fun, eh?

I mean, I probably already have all the regular HH marines I need, but if the price is right I might buy some Mk VI squads to make some old RT-era troops, probably Crimson Fists.

And for that these guys are perfect.

Andykp wrote:
This is all why the heresy was better let as myth and legend and the bloated crap fest it has become. Arguing about made up stuff as is it was real history, they can say what they like about it, say they all wore mk6 or even say primaris were there all along. It’s all made up.

Absolutely agreed. All this nonsense HH stuff is just ruining 40k as well. The primarchs are popular in HH so GW started adding them into 40k. Now 40k just feels like a Saturday morning cartoon. It’s only ever the named characters that show up, with a rotating roster of who wins and loses instead of a dark sci-fi setting.

That started way before. Ghaz, Yarric etc...don't see them being called primarch.

Also the Chaos Primarchs (obviously aside from Horus and Konrad) were active in 40k lore before FW started their HH project or BL started the HH novels.

Its one of those weird things that the lore does not 100% clarify its abundance.

There are multiple sources, including a picture linked in the thread about how "It was widly distributed," but just because something is widely distributed =/= the most popular and common place armor.

The old lore was, that Mk VI was a lot more common in the late heresy, and that primarily the RG, and i think alpha legion, used it in large numbers, almost exclusively, NL as well.

But the idea that it was THE most commonly used armor is the new bit.

However i will say this, GW is just doing this to push the Mk 6 armor. Because out of all the armors, Mk 6 was the last big popular varient that was NOT in plastic yet. We had 3, and 4 in plastic, and 5 really is just kinda a ram shackle of 4, and 6 was the last one we did not have.

So the real truth of this is, its just GW updating their lore and expanding it a bit to push the new armor.

As much as people quote the Black Books and claim Raven Guard/Alpha Legion Mk VI dominance, none of the Black Books actually cover late-Heresy events, and certainly nothing within 2 years of the Siege. So the statement that all legions were using Mk VI in late Heresy isn't contradicted by the Black Books at all.