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derpherp wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Tau situation.

The first lore we get is too positive for the 40k universe, and so the next iteration of the codex is much more grimdark. Like how they made etherals go from great leaders to possibly mind controlling them with phermones.

From what I understand they are each made by an AI in a vat as clones, these AI then monitor them for their entire lives.

The AI has even modified the Squat's souls so that they barely show up in the warp. (This might actually be a hugely important piece of lore related to the DaoT and what has been mentioned about AI maybe trying to defeat Chaos by killing all Sapient life.)

The AI's that control the Votann are slowing and dying however, as they weren't meant to function without stop for ten thousand years, and with their death, If they are infertile, the entire squat race will perhaps die out? Or if they are fertile they still may face partial or complete civilizational collapse as so much is tied up in the AI.


I think they may be more grimdark than the Tau already

I imagine it would be like WHFB Lizardmen. Spawnings of new generations become rarer and rarer or some clone templates become rarer and rarer. Eventually all the more specialized ones may die out leaving only the base template.

Too small and it is harder to keep the pose and details. I think they are about right compared to marines. Looks like a 28.5mm base too.

I would like to see a comparison to other models though, like a guardsman, fire warrior, and a grot.

Ignore

 Matrindur wrote:
Ignore

That'd put the Primaris Marine at a towering 5'1" feet by comparasion, if the Squat is 4'0" and barely a head shorter.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Y'all forgetting the most important picture:

While it's good to get a size comparison it would have been nice of GW to put the feet on the same level.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Too small and it is harder to keep the pose and details. I think they are about right compared to marines. Looks like a 28.5mm base too.

They should definitely be shorter. They should also have no knees.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I would like to see a comparison to other models though, like a guardsman, fire warrior, and a grot.

Putting a Fire Warrior next to a similarly posed Primaris, I'm getting the impression that the Squat is maybe half a head shorter than the Tau. Fish 'eads are pretty short themselves when it comes down to it.

So old marines 6ft primaris 7ft votan 4ft new imperial guard 6ftseems fine. But I haveto say they have lost me with the lore. So they have better tech than imperium, and seek knoledge like the admech? Well gak why even have the imperium and admech if these short basterds do it all? Ya I was getting a little interested but now I'm back to ignoring them completely. Votaan can suck it!

Boosykes wrote:
So old marines 6ft primaris 7ft votan 4ft new imperial guard 6ftseems fine. But I haveto say they have lost me with the lore. So they have better tech than imperium, and seek knoledge like the admech? Well gak why even have the imperium and admech if these short basterds do it all? Ya I was getting a little interested but now I'm back to ignoring them completely. Votaan can suck it!

Loads of factions have better tech and seek knowledge other than the Imperium, Eldar, Necrons and Tau for starters, the Imperium have massive numbers, hence their dominance. Plus they always spin how amazing a faction is when they do these kinds lore articles..

Boosykes wrote:
So old marines 6ft primaris 7ft votan 4ft new imperial guard 6ftseems fine. But I haveto say they have lost me with the lore. So they have better tech than imperium, and seek knoledge like the admech? Well gak why even have the imperium and admech if these short basterds do it all? Ya I was getting a little interested but now I'm back to ignoring them completely. Votaan can suck it!

The Mechanicus "searches for Knowledge" out of a religious fervour to technology and is primarily concerned with re-discovering what they've lost with a view that all that knowledge is divine and already exists somewhere. The Leagues are explorers seeking knowledge and adventure to live their lives as best they can for the benefit of their society and to please their ancestors. There's quite a difference.

As for the technology...so what if they have better tech than the Imperium? Part of the theming of the Imperium is that it's technological stagnant and has regressed. It would be strange if they had a lower level of tech.

This pic is the perfect example of everything wrong with the LoV lore and their use of antigrave tech.

Could the Imperium use abhuman mercs from time to time? Of course.
Would they hire the guys if they literally rolled around with what is CLEARLY heretek and/or archeotek without anyone raising an eyebrow?

Nop. That just doesn't make sens, that doesn't fit in the setting and just shows that the current writers have totally lost the plot of what 40k setting is supposed to be about.

Had they just given them actual trikes with wheels that kind of obvious problem wouldn't exist.

Sure but these guys litteraly get everything. Seems nonsensical that there is a race with all the answers that have been hiding away for all these years. It's all there lore together they are worse then marines wich are somehow great at everything so now the squats are just greatererer. Then everyone else. Look I am a chaos man at heart but these dwarfs are just embarrassing in a hell hole of a galixy the shortest among us have all the answers but won't share them with there nayber simply out of greed? Ya they can Gtfo as I'm concerned. I'll take another look once all the lore is out but if it continues in this fashion. I have no interest.
A good day to the rest of you that enjoy this kind of thing but they are not for me.

(HN) wrote:


This pic is the perfect example of everything wrong with the LoV lore and their use of antigrave tech.

Could the Imperium use abhuman mercs from time to time? Of course.
Would they hire the guys if they literally rolled around with what is CLEARLY heretek and/or archeotek without anyone raising an eyebrow?

Nop. That just doesn't make sens, that doesn't fit in the setting and just shows that the current writers have totally lost the plot of what 40k setting is supposed to be about.

Had they just given them actual trikes with wheels that kind of obvious problem wouldn't exist.

Grav tech is uncommon, but why would it be assumed to be archaeotek or heretek just for being grav? Especially grav tech that is derived from stc patterns.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

(HN) wrote:


This pic is the perfect example of everything wrong with the LoV lore and their use of antigrave tech.

Could the Imperium use abhuman mercs from time to time? Of course.
Would they hire the guys if they literally rolled around with what is CLEARLY heretek and/or archeotek without anyone raising an eyebrow?

Nop. That just doesn't make sens, that doesn't fit in the setting and just shows that the current writers have totally lost the plot of what 40k setting is supposed to be about.

Had they just given them actual trikes with wheels that kind of obvious problem wouldn't exist.

Grav tech is uncommon, but why would it be assumed to be archaeotek or heretek just for being grav? Especially grav tech that is derived from stc patterns.

If it's a pattern of grav vehicle they don't have, the Mechanicus would want it. It doesn't really matter what it is, if it's an STC design they wouldn't just ignore it.

Eldar have grav tech, pretty sure they don't share with the imperium either

Anti-grav tech being mostly lost was a retcon to begin with and the current lore is returned to Imperium using anti-grav more widely, so squats using it probably wouldn't be a huge problem.

And they're not part of the imperium anyway, they're not under Imperial jurisdiction. I'm sure Imperium has all sorts of dealings with xenos and non-imperial humans that have customs and practices that would be considered heretical in the Imperium.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

If it's a pattern of grav vehicle they don't have, the Mechanicus would want it. It doesn't really matter what it is, if it's an STC design they wouldn't just ignore it.

Good thing that's not a Techpriest then?

 Crimson wrote:
Anti-grav tech being mostly lost was a retcon to begin with and the current lore is returned to Imperium using anti-grav more widely, so squats using it probably wouldn't be a huge problem.

And they're not part of the imperium anyway, they're not under Imperial jurisdiction. I'm sure Imperium has all sorts of dealings with xenos and non-imperial humans that have customs and practices that would be considered heretical in the Imperium.

Yea, but typically they would be at the business end of a bolter or fifty.
The Imperium doesn’t negotiate with Xenos much and in general it’s with the tone of “we have bigger problems to deal with now so you can live for the moment. Unless you do something stupid like becoming a bigger problem.”
Humans get even less consideration though; you’re either part of the Imperium (or Mechanicus) or you’re a heretic and deserve only the pyre. You’d have to be exceptionally strong and united to get even as much leeway as the Votann apparently get, much less the Adeptus Mechanicus who had the benefit of negotiating directly with the Emperor himself back in the day.

 Crimson wrote:
Anti-grav tech being mostly lost was a retcon to begin with and the current lore is returned to Imperium using anti-grav more widely, so squats using it probably wouldn't be a huge problem.

And they're not part of the imperium anyway, they're not under Imperial jurisdiction. I'm sure Imperium has all sorts of dealings with xenos and non-imperial humans that have customs and practices that would be considered heretical in the Imperium.

The point is if the Mechanicus found out they were using STC designed technology they'd try whatever they could to get hold of it, having grav-tech already wouldn't make a difference to them as it's still another "holy" STC design they'd want to get. If the Leagues end up using that sort of stuff infront of the Imperium then that issue needs to be reflected in the lore somehow.

The galaxy is an enormous place, and not every planet/sector in the Imperium is as dogmatically religious and xenophobic as the others. How do you think Rogue Traders exist? If you're some 'bumpkin' governor far away from any Space Marine homeworld or near to the core of an organized subsystem of the Imperium (Macragge, or Terra, or whatever), I'm gonna bet you'd look the other way and hire some abhumans with weird tech if it meant securing a critical supply line from ork raids or eldar pirates or even just human rebels.

I'm so tired of the assumption that somehow an entity as big as the Imperium is organized or self-aware enough to be apparently all-knowing and highly regulated - and that they all are as hardline as a Black Templar.

Moreover, that's just one example image - it said other species, so I'm willing to bet they have fought with Tau and potentially Eldar to boot, along with any number of other minor species that don't get their own armies on tabletop.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Grav tech is uncommon, but why would it be assumed to be archaeotek or heretek just for being grav? Especially grav tech that is derived from stc patterns.

Antigrav isn't "uncommon", it's basically lost tech and why the imperium use good old treads for their tanks and wheels for their bike outside of the highest echelon of its military (and some belasarius bs).

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Eldar have grav tech, pretty sure they don't share with the imperium either

Yes, and Tau too. And guess what?
Not only tho are xenotek , but also these guys aren't buddy buddy with the imperium.
Why do I have to state obvious things again?

 Crimson wrote:
Anti-grav tech being mostly lost was a retcon to begin with and the current lore is returned to Imperium using anti-grav more widely, so squats using it probably wouldn't be a huge problem.

That's literally 2 lies right there.

 Crimson wrote:
And they're not part of the imperium anyway, they're not under Imperial jurisdiction. I'm sure Imperium has all sorts of dealings with xenos and non-imperial humans that have customs and practices that would be considered heretical in the Imperium.

Yes, and just as I already stated, the point here is that the imperium will actively hunt people using these tech, not be buddy buddy with them.

 Gratlugg wrote:
The galaxy is an enormous place, and not every planet/sector in the Imperium is as dogmatically religious and xenophobic as the others. How do you think Rogue Traders exist? If you're some 'bumpkin' governor far away from any Space Marine homeworld or near to the core of an organized subsystem of the Imperium (Macragge, or Terra, or whatever), I'm gonna bet you'd look the other way and hire some abhumans with weird tech if it meant securing a critical supply line from ork raids or eldar pirates or even just human rebels.

I'm so tired of the assumption that somehow an entity as big as the Imperium is organized or self-aware enough to be apparently all-knowing and highly regulated - and that they all are as hardline as a Black Templar.

Moreover, that's just one example image - it said other species, so I'm willing to bet they have fought with Tau and potentially Eldar to boot, along with any number of other minor species that don't get their own armies on tabletop.

Good ol "let's take exception and use them to justify anything!
A great classic in sophistry.

Hot damn, the amount of lies and mental gymnastic here from people desperately trying to ignore how bad that lore is is just staggering, and that's even before wondering how the LoV somehow managed to dodge the great crusade.

 Gratlugg wrote:
The galaxy is an enormous place, and not every planet/sector in the Imperium is as dogmatically religious and xenophobic as the others. How do you think Rogue Traders exist? If you're some 'bumpkin' governor far away from any Space Marine homeworld or near to the core of an organized subsystem of the Imperium (Macragge, or Terra, or whatever), I'm gonna bet you'd look the other way and hire some abhumans with weird tech if it meant securing a critical supply line from ork raids or eldar pirates or even just human rebels.

I'm so tired of the assumption that somehow an entity as big as the Imperium is organized or self-aware enough to be apparently all-knowing and highly regulated - and that they all are as hardline as a Black Templar.

Moreover, that's just one example image - it said other species, so I'm willing to bet they have fought with Tau and potentially Eldar to boot, along with any number of other minor species that don't get their own armies on tabletop.

Yep, exactly. And the thing I really like about how the squats are handled, is that it shows that wider galaxy. I really want to see those punky, rogue tradery fringes of the 40K explored more.

I think what's lost in translation is just how 'needle in the haystack' reports of things like 'there ~might~ be functional STCs!' or 'there are short humans on anti-grav vehicles!' really are. There are entire passage in some novels about how Administratum operators/servitors mindlessly crunch near-limitless amounts of incoming reports, manifests, calls for aid, etc., and because of the volume and the sheer size of the Imperium (it being a bloated mess is part of its theme), they do things like - send Imperial Guard regiments to die on worlds they never even had to be on!

This type of resolution loss at scale is certainly also true for the likes of the Adeptus Mechanicus - how many hare-brained adepts and priests must be blaring the horn about STCs on a given day, incorrectly, because they are jockeying for prestige or stumble across dead ends? How many levels of bureaucracy must that get through, and how many times does a senior official roll their eyes and chalk it up to flights of fancy?

My suspicion is the Leagues, like the Tau, exist because they are not very large on the galactic scale, not particularly well known across the breadth of the Imperium, probably not in a critical place spatially relative to Imperial space, and are not really worth dedicated resources to subjugate when there are too many other active threats or unsolved mysteries directing the nature of Imperial supply lines.

GW lore? Squats were devoured by Tyranids thats all you need to know.

 (HN) wrote:

Hot damn, the amount of lies and mental gymnastic here from people desperately trying to ignore how bad that lore is is just staggering, and that's even before wondering how the LoV somehow managed to dodge the great crusade.

You mean like the countless other worlds, species, and occasional undiscovered human populations that also didn't get met with the Great Crusade? There's nothing deceptive about my argument at all, you're just substituting your narrow vision of what the 40k galaxy looks like because you apparently either hate anything that brings into question the idea of the Imperium having absolute dominion and omniscience, or you don't understand scale.

 Gratlugg wrote:
You mean like the countless other worlds, species, and occasional undiscovered human populations that also didn't get met with the Great Crusade? There's nothing deceptive about my argument at all, you're just substituting your narrow vision of what the 40k galaxy looks like because you apparently either hate anything that brings into question the idea of the Imperium having absolute dominion and omniscience, or you don't understand scale.

Oh yeah, sure, there's a lot of species and world that didn't got touched by the great crusade, but guess what? There's even more of them that got touched by it.
The whole Votann premise only works if SOMEHOW the imperium never heard of them, otherwise you could be sure that trying to get their hand on Golden Age Super Computers would be on top of their todo list.
LoV isn't something like the Khrave or any other minor xenos race that the imperium can't really bother dealing with, it's a literal loot piniata that roll around using HUMAN golden age tech.
And from what we know of the dwarvish culture of the Kins, it's pretty obvious that they would hold a pretty big grudge against the imperium if they ever went after their machin gods.

I'm not being narrow in my vision of the 40k galaxy, quite the opposite, I can extrapolate how an isolated element will interact in the greater picture and history unlike you who are trying your hardest to focus on the idea that "oh yeah, well they are very VERY small and probably never really had to deal with anything other than very lax imperium representative" since the last 10 000 years, because that make sens and isn't showing an extrem narrow vision at all.

Knowing about the existence of the Squats =/= knowing the nature of the Votann, which the lore has already expressed is something the Kin are highly, highly secretive about. Likewise, their (pseudo) functional STCs exist, most likely, in their core worlds.

If their theme reflects dwarven elements, I am going to guess they are isolationist, even if they are xenophilic, so there is no way to know they have those things unless you actively violated their space.

An onlooker assuming they have STC-derived blueprints (just like everyone else does), to account for their various DAoT tech? Sure. But there are examples of that across the galaxy, some of which is jealously guarded by other factions like Space Marines.

 (HN) wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Grav tech is uncommon, but why would it be assumed to be archaeotek or heretek just for being grav? Especially grav tech that is derived from stc patterns.

Antigrav isn't "uncommon", it's basically lost tech and why the imperium use good old treads for their tanks and wheels for their bike outside of the highest echelon of its military (and some belasarius bs).

Uncommon my left testicle, basically every faction in the galaxy has some kind of anti-grav by now.

Made of uncommon materials. At least, the Imperial held STCs use uncommon materials.

But even then, uncommon is inherently a matter of perspective.

The wider issue for the Imperium is the innate paranoia and selfishness of the Mechanicus, and the knowledge to make anti-Grav being guarded and not widely disseminated.

Then there’s the simply supply/demand. You could have vast stockpiles of the materials required. But if you can churn out multiple tracked versions of a mainline battle tank? Well…the Imperial War Machine is a hungry beast, so you go with whatever is not only the easiest to produce? But ideally the easiest to maintain.

Remember that is what makes the Rhino, Chimera and Leman Russ chassis so common. They’re easily and readily adapted to changing supply lines,

 Gratlugg wrote:
Knowing about the existence of the Squats =/= knowing the nature of the Votann, which the lore has already expressed is something the Kin are highly, highly secretive about. Likewise, their (pseudo) functional STCs exist, most likely, in their core worlds.

Yes, obviously the knowledge of the Votann could indeed be secret I'm not disputing that, but the actual gear they are using on the battlefield can't.
What do you think any imperial guy would think when they see these squats roll around with all that very... "interesting" gear?
The answer is obviously going after them. Then what would happen if they ever manage to win a war against them?
The answer is obviously finding out about the Votann.

So in order for the Votann to still be a total mystery to the imperium it would require said imperium to never have won a war against the LoV, and never ask any question about all that shiny gears they are using.
Does that sound realistic to you? It doesn't to me.

 Gratlugg wrote:
If their theme reflects dwarven elements, I am going to guess they are isolationist, even if they are xenophilic, so there is no way to know they have those things unless you actively violated their space.

The article LITERALLY showed them dealing with an imperial, and the text speak about how they will live a life of discovery and adventure (as if that was some isekai world or something).
Come on, stop making up guess and start reading what GW itself is writting for a change.

 Gratlugg wrote:
An onlooker assuming they have STC-derived blueprints (just like everyone else does), to account for their various DAoT tech? Sure. But there are examples of that across the galaxy, some of which is jealously guarded by other factions like Space Marines.

It's not just about STC, it's literally just what they show to the world on the battle field.
Let's say you get in battle with the LoV, you kill a Kin. You get a body of a clearly bioengineered human with the constitution of a space marine, an armor that's as good as the Astartes one (without the need of all that fancy black carapace thing) and weapons that put Tau to shame, and god forbid the kin you killed turned out to be an Ironkin because that would suddenly be another level of redflag for the emperium to whome the simple idea of AI is heretical (and that's not just a "huuur that's fanatical BT level stuff", no, ALL imperial citizen have an ingrained disgust for Abominable Intelect).

Here's the thing, the kind of stuff LoV is rolling around with could get a pass if they were like the Tau something relatively new that the sluggish imperium is having a hard time reacting to, but this is not the case, these guys PREDATE the whole imperium.

 (HN) wrote:

 Gratlugg wrote:
Knowing about the existence of the Squats =/= knowing the nature of the Votann, which the lore has already expressed is something the Kin are highly, highly secretive about. Likewise, their (pseudo) functional STCs exist, most likely, in their core worlds.

Yes, obviously the knowledge of the Votann could indeed be secret I'm not disputing that, but the actual gear they are using on the battlefield can't.
What do you think any imperial guy would think when they see these squats roll around with all that very... "interesting" gear?
The answer is obviously going after them. Then what would happen if they ever manage to win a war against them?
The answer is obviously finding out about the Votann.

So in order for the Votann to still be a total mystery to the imperium it would require said imperium to never have won a war against the LoV, and never ask any question about all that shiny gears they are using.
Does that sound realistic to you? It doesn't to me.

Have you forgotten? The Votann are the absolute bestest and most awesome and all other tech is just inferior derivatives of glorious unfalliable Squat tech