Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

They don't really cater to either side in particular. They don't seem to appeal to either the people who (absurdly) think an army based on the Dwarf archetype shouldn't be based on the Dwarf Archetype by making them very obviously not Dwarf themed, or the people who do like the Dwarf archetype and want their Space Dwarfs to be Dwarf themed. They try to play the middle ground and do both Dwarfs and Not Dwarfs at once, it's like they're more short generic sci-fi humans who for some reason have a slight dwarf theming stuck on them.

Like the Mantic Forgefather miniatures or not at least they choose a noticeable theme and actually go with it.

They're just slightly-below-average-height Norwegians.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Based on the units that were shown off thus far, here's my prediction for how the Squats' main tank will look like. It's probably gonna be called something like Einhyrjyr Syige Thank and it'll be the bestest tank ever in the galaxy.

While I like the aesthetic they are going for, with it being more tied to DAoT-era human style, I can definitely appreciate the effort you must have put into obtaining this leaked image. Exalted.

I like the DAoT theme on these models too, though I actually think aesthetically I liked the line troops better. Excited to see more.

Well that’s a damn sight easier than my way…

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They're just slightly-below-average-height Norwegians.

But can they build turrets by wacking them with a wrench?

Flinty wrote:Well that’s a damn sight easier than my way…

Very cool.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

They don't really cater to either side in particular. They don't seem to appeal to either the people who (absurdly) think an army based on the Dwarf archetype shouldn't be based on the Dwarf Archetype by making them very obviously not Dwarf themed, or the people who do like the Dwarf archetype and want their Space Dwarfs to be Dwarf themed. They try to play the middle ground and do both Dwarfs and Not Dwarfs at once, it's like they're more short generic sci-fi humans who for some reason have a slight dwarf theming stuck on them.

Like the Mantic Forgefather miniatures or not at least they choose a noticeable theme and actually go with it.

Exactly.

I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

But they have animal backpack icons! because that's totally something that is part of the Dwarf aesthetic and it's not like there would be something more fitting for an army that worships ancient AI in the shape of giant heads, has a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, has wall decoration stylized on Dwarf/Votann faces, and revere their ancestors....

Seriously, it's not good at all how the guy who hasn't actually been said to be part of The leagues has more that's in-line with the League theming on him than the League miniatures themselves do.

 Flinty wrote:
Well that’s a damn sight easier than my way…

Truescaled squats!

Edit: Old terminology. Primarisquats!

Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

I'll put my tinfoil suite for a second and make the same guess that I did when the first wave primaris rolled out with their SC2 ripoff design and very "videogamey" units (like that awful ATV) and say that GW goal here is to make their design move videogame friendly.

I'm probably giving them more credit than they deserve tho by implying that their shift in style has a (missguided) goal rather than their new design team being simply gak at their job.

I suspect it has more to do with the design team being part of the younger generation, and as such grew up with / are into video games.

If only they were into Command and Conquer instead of Starcraft.
Then we'd get a Leman Russ redesign that looks suspiciously like an Apocalypse Tank, and Squats that look like RA2 Tesla Troopers

I get the impression the problems are down to having a starting idea of "Squats but as Demiurg". Jes Goodwin created some concepts for the Demiurg years ago and said that maybe they would come back to them and turn them into an something more substantial eventually, and this seems to be finally doing that.



So their "Space Dwarf" aesthetic is based around something that was instead meant to be aliens with just some of Dwarf tropes lore-wise, that they're now trying to fit the Dwarf stuff onto.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

But they have animal backpack icons! because that's totally something that is part of the Dwarf aesthetic and it's not like there would be something more fitting for an army that worships ancient AI in the shape of giant heads, has a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, has wall decoration stylized on Dwarf/Votann faces, and revere their ancestors....

Seriously, it's not good at all how the guy who hasn't actually been said to be part of The leagues has more that's in-line with the League theming on him than the League miniatures themselves do.

Yeah it's like some GW designer was cripplingly afraid of actually integrating the symbol of their faction in the actual miniatures.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

I mean, you are just invalidating others opinions with this by saying they aren't going to buy them because they are shallow, or that they are zombies who buy anything.

I feel like this is the same as that one game company that spent millions of dollars on a character customizer with radical crazy species and wild bright blue hairstyles only to find that the average player went with pretty stayed stuff.

Similarity with Darktide, in polling people want to play the guardsman/veteran at twice the rate of any other class. Its the least 'wild' class and the most 'realistic'.

People don't always gravitate toward the loud and proud and blue haired and outwardly facing, and that is a perfectly valid opinion to have even if you don't agree with it.

From what I've seen these designs are being really well received by the community, so I think GW has called it right on this one. I think these squats are going to sell unusually well compared to other releases.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

The only thing that could be considered selling a story here is the soulstones and a random person seeing them would have no idea what they were without context. They just look like colourful ovals. If you put the eldar in their armour with a helmet and showed it to the average person they might not even realise they are supposed to be elves as they have a bit more Asian influence than is the norm, which is literally what happened to me when I showed a friend not into warhammer a helmeted eldar. They called it "anime gundam".

They'd have a much easier time telling that the squats are dwarves honestly because of nordic runes and their short height.

Do we actually know any of the lore behind the animal banner things? Maybe they are filled with the ashes of dead squats. Maybe they are a mind control device that interferes with other squats forcing moral.

derpherp wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

I mean, you are just invalidating others opinions with this by saying they aren't going to buy them because they are shallow, or that they are zombies who buy anything.

I feel like this is the same as that one game company that spent millions of dollars on a character customizer with radical crazy species and wild bright blue hairstyles only to find that the average player went with pretty stayed stuff.

Similarity with Darktide, in polling people want to play the guardsman/veteran at twice the rate of any other class. Its the least 'wild' class and the most 'realistic'.

People don't always gravitate toward the loud and proud and blue haired and outwardly facing, and that is a perfectly valid opinion to have even if you don't agree with it.

I feel like you've got the analogy the other way around The "White Male Human Fighter is boring" crowd seem to be closer to those who want GW to write off the space dwarves concept and go in a radically different direction.

From what I've seen these designs are being really well received by the community, so I think GW has called it right on this one. I think these squats are going to sell unusually well compared to other releases.

Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

I'm reminded of the Ossiarch reveals for AoS. The reaction to them has a lot of parallels. There's the diehards who'll love anything GW reveals no matter what, the people who think they're fine but were never the target audience, and the crowd who wanted to like them but expected designs closer to the typical fantasy skeleton rather than the Skeletor bone golems we got and were let down and the threads were a real 50-50 split of positivity and negativity. After they were nerfed from their tournament wrecking high their popularity seemed to settle somewhere on the middle-lower end, not unpopular but not one you expected to see on every other table. I'd guess the Votann will find a similar place depending on how expensive they are, more popular than GSC if their pricing isn't too crazy but rubbing shoulders with the non-Eldar Xenos races for popularity.

.

 Arbitrator wrote:

derpherp wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

I mean, you are just invalidating others opinions with this by saying they aren't going to buy them because they are shallow, or that they are zombies who buy anything.

I feel like this is the same as that one game company that spent millions of dollars on a character customizer with radical crazy species and wild bright blue hairstyles only to find that the average player went with pretty stayed stuff.

Similarity with Darktide, in polling people want to play the guardsman/veteran at twice the rate of any other class. Its the least 'wild' class and the most 'realistic'.

People don't always gravitate toward the loud and proud and blue haired and outwardly facing, and that is a perfectly valid opinion to have even if you don't agree with it.

From what I've seen these designs are being really well received by the community, so I think GW has called it right on this one. I think these squats are going to sell unusually well compared to other releases.

Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

I've noticed this too. With usual reveals you tend to get most agree that something is either positive or negative with just the occasional posts not agreeing, but with the Leagues I've seen plenty of people - both here, on multiple reddit subs, and on other 40k forums, say they're boring and uninspired, very similar to Starcraft or Generic sci-fi, say they're not Dwarfy enough, or say that their thoughts on them that they are just middling and they do nothing for them either way, despite their lore sounding great.

Infact, I can't recall anyone really saying it's actually a good realization of the Dwarf archetype side of their aesthetic specifically. A lot the "praise" has been from the sort of people who don't like the Dwarf archetype at all and keep repeating "The Lack of Dwarf theming is good, Dwarfs don't runes and Nordic elements!" and don't want Space Dwarfs to be Space Dwarfs.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

IMO the only crime ForgeFathers are guilty of is being Mantic, if identical models were released by GW the same people would gobble them up. They certainly overlay a mild classic dwarf aesthetic over utilitarian power armour a lot better than Votann do.

I agree that the Forgefathers are good. I've got their exo armored troops and a few of the dreads. Nicely dwarfy. The other figs are good (don't like the tank) but they don't size up with my actual squats enough to purchase.

As for others, Olley's Armies have been making good squats for quite a while.

Hasslefree has the GRYMN but are more like the Votaan in terms of not being Fantasy-dwarfy.

I'm addition there are alot of other options out there of varying quality by Wargames Atlantic, CP Miniatures, Black Cat Bases and others.

derpherp wrote:
I mean, you are just invalidating others opinion

The lack of selfawarness on that one is stagering.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

Yup, that's how every product release need to be treated this days.
You have to filter out the noise from people that have literally nothing better to say than "omg take my money" and pay attention to what the people who don't blindly ride every single hype train because they actually have a critical eye will tell you.

This goes for movies, video games and obviously GW products.

One thing is certain, almost everyone I talked to that aren't the usual sad GW drone willing to throw money at boxes they will never open anyway have been the same : The more I see the Votann the less I like them, and this has deen way more pronounced for the people that actually kept the "we want squats back" meme alive for decades.

What's going on here rather obvious, the people that should have been the target audience aren't getting what they want, and most people that just were at first on board with "the return of the space dwarfs, the squats!" have been gradually realizing that what's coming isn't what they expected and that's 100% on GW. THEY are the one that started the hype train about how it was a return of THE SQUATS... before quickly revealing that actually they aren't the squats and the squats are thos other guys over at necrumda (which is still to this day the weirdest marketing move I've ever seen). They set up an expectation to then just go directly against it.
As I and many other have said, people would have been way more receptive if they just went and make something new that isn't presented as the space dwarfs, like the Demiurge. They could have made them way more alien, way less "kinda dwarf but not looking like one outside of the short stature" and that would have been fine...

Well, if they managed to come up with some visual design actually cool and not some obvious SC2 rejects.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've noticed this too. With usual reveals you tend to get most agree that something is either positive or negative with just the occasional posts not agreeing, but with the Leagues I've seen plenty of people - both here, on multiple reddit subs, and on other 40k forums, say they're boring and uninspired, very similar to Starcraft or Generic sci-fi, say they're not Dwarfy enough, or say that their thoughts on them that they are just middling and they do nothing for them either way, despite their lore sounding great.

Infact, I can't recall anyone really saying it's actually a good realization of the Dwarf archetype side of their aesthetic specifically. A lot the "praise" has been from the sort of people who don't like the Dwarf archetype at all and keep repeating "The Lack of Dwarf theming is good, Dwarfs don't runes and Nordic elements!" and don't want Space Dwarfs to be Space Dwarfs.

You are hitting the nail on the head here.
The only "praise" I've seen so far is either a very generic, vague and non committal "I like them" that somehow can't give any real reason as to why, often followed by a defensive "It's good that they aren't boring dwarfs" that feels like it's only there to counter your own argument as to how they are not dwarvish enough. More often than not it's more a case of them disagreeing with you on principle because they don't like dwarf and now they are going to defend that votann design that they clearly don't really care much about just because they have identified it as something the person they disagree with is against.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

I'm reminded of the Ossiarch reveals for AoS. The reaction to them has a lot of parallels. There's the diehards who'll love anything GW reveals no matter what, the people who think they're fine but were never the target audience, and the crowd who wanted to like them but expected designs closer to the typical fantasy skeleton rather than the Skeletor bone golems we got and were let down and the threads were a real 50-50 split of positivity and negativity. After they were nerfed from their tournament wrecking high their popularity seemed to settle somewhere on the middle-lower end, not unpopular but not one you expected to see on every other table. I'd guess the Votann will find a similar place depending on how expensive they are, more popular than GSC if their pricing isn't too crazy but rubbing shoulders with the non-Eldar Xenos races for popularity.

.

The kind of people picking guardsman over Ogryn, are the kind of people who are going to find more appeal in the Squats than Kharadron Overlords.

The community also went ballistic over Primaris, but they are one of the best selling and most popular units despite the community being ten times more "divided" and ten times louder on them than over the squats.

Loudness of controversy isn't a good way to get a read, especially as complaining is the most powerful motivator to comment on the internet. (cough)

Reading between the lines means looking past the loudest voices. If you look past the loudest voices you find people love the designs.

No, GW couldn't release a scribble on a bit of paper and people would be calling it the best ever and insanely hyped. Have you not seen the community in the last 9 months? It's been incredibly hostile to GW over the animation mess and has only recently started to improve. If GW did that then the community would be knives out for blood.

My read is that they are going to be popular and sell well. I've seen at least like twenty to thirty times the number of people saying they are planning to buy the squats than I saw around something like the Ossiarchs and for sure around the recent Imperial Guard update.

I guess I only have to wait to see if I am proven right or not, it shouldn't be that long until the release. Tick Tock.🥴

I'm allowed to like them, and other people are allowed to dislike them. And none of us have any obligation to show some argument why. I like the color blue, too. I'm not gonna go out of my way to make some case for why that's reasonable. It's my taste, and no one else is a gatekeeper for it.

Be a nicer place if that was good enough and I didn't get typecast into being some drooling smooth-brain consumer by a handful of remarkably vitriolic people.

Personally I hate the lore and the models are so where between boring and bad.

I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

I guess I must be a unicorn of sorts, because I like the idea of Dwarves in space, and I think that what GW have produced is a tasteful nod towards that archetype. The more that I look at all of the models shown so far, the more that I like them, honestly.

But I also think it's probably good to remember that the LoV are supposed to be more than just Dwarves in space. Among other things, they are a relatively "rational" faction, with a sound grasp of the technology they're using (and presumably the science behind it, also). Honestly, this is a pretty dwarfish characteristic, it seems to me - an evolution of the "master craftsman" archetype for a sci-fi setting, and specifically the 40k setting, where the biggest faction is characterized by a complete degeneration of scientific knowledge. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

Just my thoughts, though. Really liking the new Ernest Hemingway Guard.

...actually, the only thing that I don't like about the faction so far is the silly proprietary spelling. :p

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Infact, I can't recall anyone really saying it's actually a good realization of the Dwarf archetype side of their aesthetic specifically. A lot the "praise" has been from the sort of people who don't like the Dwarf archetype at all and keep repeating "The Lack of Dwarf theming is good, Dwarfs don't runes and Nordic elements!" and don't want Space Dwarfs to be Space Dwarfs.

This would fit my thoughts about the matter. Even as a collector of old miniatures, I'm not interested in "the Dwarf archetype" anymore, or want a new take on it, in the same way as I wouldn't want for GW to try to recapture the madcap silliness of 2nd edition orks, or the anarchic Judge Dredd aesthetics of 1st edition Space Marine artwork. It'd be incongruous to where the game is right now to bring back Squats like they'd never gone away (and I've never much cared for other explorations of the dwarf archetype in science fiction settings either).

My love for the original Squat models isn't because they're Dwarves, it's because they're rare, collectible, somewhat valuable, and represent an earlier phase of the game's development. I never wanted them back, or acknowledged by the lore.

The Leagues so far have garnered praise from me because a) they appear to be a standalone faction instead of some Imperial or Tau adjunct, b) they're strongly non-Imperial in their acceptance of artificial intelligence despite this being borderline suicidal and invoking the wrath of the Cog, c) the Ironkin being treated as equal to meatbags is an interesting idea, and d) they make a lot of people really angry.

In terms of specific praise for the miniatures, I like the Hearthguard look good, a fine evolution of the eggs-on-legs powersuit even if it wears its inspirations on its big armored sleeves - not that GW would ever admit to them. Someone elsewhere noted that the big shoulders and mecha-spine could also be a nod towards that one proto-Terminator everyone likes calling a "Saturnine", though I think that's unlikely myself. Too few 40k armies use wrist-blades like that, anyway - even if they remind me of the butler in Hudson Hawk.

I'm now more keen than before to see League vehicles. Are Hearthguard expected to jog to battle, or will they get some kind of gunship or APC to get them there in a jiffy? Teleportation is possible too, I suppose, but that'd invite the Space Marine Terminator comparison even stronger, and would be a mistake in my opinion.

Well I think to answer some of the above posts you have to consider the background of the Squats and the GW range as a whole. First, you can't have them look too dwarfy specifically because of the AoS Kharadons. Now I know that sounds incredibly stupid because of the Stormcasts being fantasy space marines and that most of the 40k races are fantasy ported to the future. But, I will guarantee that will have been a major design point early on. GW is under different regimes here and clearly they're trying to make the ranges all different. Original AoS being a manky pile of futuristic fantasy is the gak filled bed they have to lie in now.

Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

With the fairly recent Necromunda Squat character releases (was that 2017 or something?), that was a clear design choice that placed them in the universe. So when the Votanni were being finalised, it was clear they had to make them look very different to the Squats.

I get the impression the problems are down to having a starting idea of "Squats but as Demiurg". Jes Goodwin created some concepts for the Demiurg years ago and said that maybe they would come back

I reckon Mentlegen is spot on here, I think the design ideas have been in the background for a while and the archived Squat folder was brought out, dusted off and these were the choices made. Thinking of them more as Demiurg is a better way of considering them. And in fact if they had just gone solely down that route, the design choices would make more sense. BUT. They couldn't do that because people would have equally messed their frillies because they weren't Squats. I'd suggest part of the reason for the "blandness" is that GW were clearly trying to not go to far one way or the other. The end result is therefore something that leaves you with a bowl of porridge. I guess that's the problem with trying to be a centrist

People are saying they don't like the "generic sci fi" look of them, but in the 40k universe, that's different enough to make them standout.
I think overall, the right design choices were made, it was bolder to go with something different than to rehash the "Space Dwarves".

Now, personally, I quite like how they look. Or more specifically, I like how they look enough and I know they'll look better when I do some simple conversions and give them a good colour scheme. The general background new lore of the Votanni is the most interesting part, everything else can be changed to fit your own preferences, that's the cool part of Warhammer to me.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

But they have animal backpack icons! because that's totally something that is part of the Dwarf aesthetic and it's not like there would be something more fitting for an army that worships ancient AI in the shape of giant heads, has a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, has wall decoration stylized on Dwarf/Votann faces, and revere their ancestors....

Well maybe GW didn't want to do literal walking Votann heads because Mantic already done it
https://www.manticgames.com/games/deadzone/forge-fathers/forge-fathers-forge-guard/

 warboss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

...I mean...


...yeah? ^^