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Tyel wrote:
Why aren't they squats?

Because GW said so, because they have clearly a different lore and aesthetic than the original squats (even when taking into account the necesarry update for something 30years olds
And not, it's not a case of "this is how they look when updated", we know how "the squat" would look when updated, GW literally just releaed them, for Necromunda, and they look basically exactly what people "udpated squat" would look like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

derpherp wrote:

I don't know fellas. That's not what I'm seeing. That Votann ATV was nearly as popular as the new Angron on reddit. Angron the named character with multiple books written about him only had a a bit more popularity than a lunar squat car. The squats appear to be genuinely liked.

I visibly cringed when you mentioned reddit as some kind of good representation of the general population of 40.

derpherp wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I have to say, GW managing to please almost nobody, and offending so many conflicting groups of people in mutually-exclusive ways, is beautiful to behold.

"SQUATS ARE DOOMED!" "Nobody lieks them!" "THEY APPEALS TO NUU ONE!"

I don't know fellas. That's not what I'm seeing. That Votann ATV was nearly as popular as the new Angron on reddit. Angron the named character with multiple books written about him only had a a bit more popularity than a lunar squat car. The squats appear to be genuinely liked.

The complainers, whether that's too dwarfy, or not dwarfy enough, seem to be in the extreme minority.

Our specific corner of the hobby cube is easily irritated. I'm unsurprised reddit love them (I rarely agree with reddit but on this issue I'm fully on board). tbh even this thread, though I've not followed it closely, seems to lean noticeably positive on them.

Tyel wrote:

I think this is the divide. I think this is a fairly close adaption of the 30 year old IP. The problem is that 30 year old IP was seemingly a dull road to nowhere which resulted in Squats famously being squatted.
.

The Squats were removed because they a large amount of their 40k presence revolved around them silly zany biker dwarfs named Squats.

The basic space dwarf mercenary look of their infantry was fine, and the master crafted huge warmachines in epic were said to be more the direction of what they should have done instead of the bikers.

This is an updated adaptation of a Squat:



And he even includes multiple elements that are similar to what the Leagues have (the backpack and undersuit primarily). He's a combination of the two styles.

No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

derpherp wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I have to say, GW managing to please almost nobody, and offending so many conflicting groups of people in mutually-exclusive ways, is beautiful to behold.

"SQUATS ARE DOOMED!" "Nobody lieks them!" "THEY APPEALS TO NUU ONE!"

I don't know fellas. That's not what I'm seeing. That Votann ATV was nearly as popular as the new Angron on reddit. Angron the named character with multiple books written about him only had a a bit more popularity than a lunar squat car. The squats appear to be genuinely liked.

The complainers, whether that's too dwarfy, or not dwarfy enough, seem to be in the extreme minority.

For every old fart, like some of us, that remember the old squats and are "offended" theres thousands of new casual buyers who will be into this more modernised design.

Money will do the talk.

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be. And he had more than two ancestor sigils.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be.

But "uncommon type of Imperial mercenary" doesn't really warrant a full faction in 40K. Hence the obvious attempt to revamp them into something else, that does.

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be.

But "uncommon type of Imperial mercenary" doesn't really warrant a full faction in 40K. Hence the obvious attempt to revamp them into something else, that does.

Do you not know that the Leagues still have the mercenary part of them too? Nothing about that idea means they have to be "imperial".

tneva82 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
and certainly don't scream "The Squats have returned!" to me.

They're Squats, but not as we know them.

Hasn't that been the entire point? They aren't really supposed to be screaming the Squats have returned. These are the Leagues of Votann. It's not for everyone, but for those that prefer the old style, that's why the Necromunda Squats exist. Aptly named, go figure!

Except gw made big point that this isn't new faction but is return of the squats...

Gw is the one that said "squats are back!". No wonder people wanted then squats and not new faction...

Having seen the old squat models, I'll take these any day of the year over those horrid, ugly, joke of a faction.

I’m more keen than ever to see pics of a collected army.

 NAVARRO wrote:
For every old fart, like some of us, that remember the old squats and are "offended" theres thousands of new casual buyers who will be into this more modernised design.

I'm an oldbeard of considerable antiquity and I quite like the new designs. Doubly so if they end up being some kind of harbinger of GW's doom like the easily impressionable seem to believe.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be.

But "uncommon type of Imperial mercenary" doesn't really warrant a full faction in 40K. Hence the obvious attempt to revamp them into something else, that does.

Do you not know that the Leagues still have the mercenary part of them too? Nothing about that idea means they have to be "imperial".

It appears I've allowed you to shift the argument into irrelevant minutiae so you can avoid dealing with the original observation.

It doesn't matter who does mercenary work.

Grendl Grendlson looks like he walked into Mercenaries R'Us and asked for the Vigorous Veteran™ Level II Starter Pack. His equipment, weapons and armour looks generic and mismatched. He is not a good example to use for "what Squats could have been" because he looks like an independent, self-sufficient contractor (ie. exactly what he IS) and not a representative of a unique culture/faction.

To be fair I quite like what we’ve seen of the lore and the art of the Votann. It’s just the actual models that I think are a huge disappointment.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For every old fart, like some of us, that remember the old squats and are "offended" theres thousands of new casual buyers who will be into this more modernised design.

I'm an oldbeard of considerable antiquity and I quite like the new designs. Doubly so if they end up being some kind of harbinger of GW's doom like the easily impressionable seem to believe.

Yeah same but dont care much about what people are on about with what Squats should be. I mean I remember the old models and I keep going back and check them out. But not much on the old concepts is worth replicating ( that FW guy is a clear example of how dated designs should be left as one offs and not translated into armies). I think the new fellas bring something new to 40k and I'm ok with that.

I also believe these will do well for GW as long as the prices dont go nuts again. Knowing GW they will 100% raise the prices and blame the global warming.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be. And he had more than two ancestor sigils.

They weren’t mercenaries, they were an army in their own right with uniforms and a specific look, and that necromunda guy isn’t it. The helmet is all wrong. All the got right were the quilted jacket and maybe the gloves. The weapons aren’t right, the beards to big and the belt buckle is all wrong.

They didn’t have a mercenary vibe any more than imperial guard did or marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For every old fart, like some of us, that remember the old squats and are "offended" theres thousands of new casual buyers who will be into this more modernised design.

I'm an oldbeard of considerable antiquity and I quite like the new designs. Doubly so if they end up being some kind of harbinger of GW's doom like the easily impressionable seem to believe.

Yeah same but dont care much about what people are on about with what Squats should be. I mean I remember the old models and I keep going back and check them out. But not much on the old concepts is worth replicating ( that FW guy is a clear example of how dated designs should be left as one offs and not translated into armies). I think the new fellas bring something new to 40k and I'm ok with that.

I also believe these will do well for GW as long as the prices dont go nuts again. Knowing GW they will 100% raise the prices and blame the global warming.

This ^^^
I agree that the old look, as much as I liked it shouldn’t have been just redone.

Another old fart here. I never collected squats for 40k but I had quite a lot for Titan Legions. I didn't really care about the smaller stuff but I loved the land train and the airship.
I'm all for something new that broadens the scope of 40k. I remember how much this forum hated the Tau when they were first announced, but they are a pretty well established part of the setting now.
I also think marmite factions are good for the game. I hate the nurgle aesthetic but I don't begrudge it being part of the game.

I'm pretty down with the NASA punk aesthetic for this faction and minis which stray furthest from that - the exosuits- are the ones I like the least. I do hope they do something inspired by the land train though.

Andykp wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be. And he had more than two ancestor sigils.

They weren’t mercenaries, they were an army in their own right with uniforms and a specific look, and that necromunda guy isn’t it. The helmet is all wrong. All the got right were the quilted jacket and maybe the gloves. The weapons aren’t right, the beards to big and the belt buckle is all wrong.

They didn’t have a mercenary vibe any more than imperial guard did or marines.
[

Literally called Space Dwarf mercenaries.

Oh damn!

There's barely a beard among them. Disgusting. Those Space Dwarves don't even look like Dwarves. Where's all the dwarf runes? What are GW thinking with those designs? Can't wait to see all the 3D printed versions that will be 300% better. And so on and so on until my head explodes.

Like age of sigmar the more factions dilute the release scedule the less each existing faction will receive

Tyel wrote:
Why aren't they squats?

I think this is the divide. I think this is a fairly close adaption of the 30 year old IP. The problem is that 30 year old IP was seemingly a dull road to nowhere which resulted in Squats famously being squatted.

Which I think is why you have people divided over wanting something more dwarf or less. Its unclear exactly which way to go - but they wanted something other than "Codex: Short fat ab-Van Saar".

But hey - some people seem to love it, so it may just be me.

Squats got squatted because they weren't following dwarf archetype. These aren't either. So at least start isn't promising.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m more keen than ever to see pics of a collected army.

Yes, that would be good. Unfortunately GW doesn't seem to be in a hurry.

Andykp wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For every old fart, like some of us, that remember the old squats and are "offended" theres thousands of new casual buyers who will be into this more modernised design.

I'm an oldbeard of considerable antiquity and I quite like the new designs. Doubly so if they end up being some kind of harbinger of GW's doom like the easily impressionable seem to believe.

Yeah same but dont care much about what people are on about with what Squats should be. I mean I remember the old models and I keep going back and check them out. But not much on the old concepts is worth replicating ( that FW guy is a clear example of how dated designs should be left as one offs and not translated into armies). I think the new fellas bring something new to 40k and I'm ok with that.

I also believe these will do well for GW as long as the prices dont go nuts again. Knowing GW they will 100% raise the prices and blame the global warming.

This ^^^
I agree that the old look, as much as I liked it shouldn’t have been just redone.

This line of thinking reminds me of the people who wanted Sisters of Battle that don't look like Sisters of Battle when that army got its update. It honestly boggles my mind how anyone can reconcile specifically wanting an old thing back only for it to not resemble the old thing.

I think some people want Squats: The Next Generation, and others want Squats: The Force Awakens.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

I think this is the divide. I think this is a fairly close adaption of the 30 year old IP. The problem is that 30 year old IP was seemingly a dull road to nowhere which resulted in Squats famously being squatted.
.

The Squats were removed because they a large amount of their 40k presence revolved around them silly zany biker dwarfs named Squats.

The basic space dwarf mercenary look of their infantry was fine, and the master crafted huge warmachines in epic were said to be more the direction of what they should have done instead of the bikers.

This is an updated adaptation of a Squat:



And he even includes multiple elements that are similar to what the Leagues have (the backpack and undersuit primarily). He's a combination of the two styles.

The problemi have with this is its pretty much fantasy dwarf with a bolter,helmet and backpack. The armour is a medieval design that they used on the fantasy dwarfs [specifically the crossbow and thunderer dwarfs], which to me, doesn't really say "technologically advanced race" or 40k for that matter. It didn't matter so much when they were released as eldar "mesh armour" was chainmail with a few plates over the top.
Granted some folk love this look and have collected and converted whole armies based on it. However there are others who what a dwarf type faction that is a fresh take on the dwarf race. The Leagues very much look like this, developing their own design language. The fantasy dwarfs have their ability as makers translated through craft skills- hence the fine, heavily adorned metal work, the Leagues have their skills shown by the quality of their tech and engineering and its good each has its own identity through this. Having said that I would hope the Leagues get some artificer type helmets for the the characters/heroes, I'm happy enough its not everywhere. But thats just my opinion, others will not feel the same but I'm a long time dwarf collector and I'm very much looking forward to getting these models.

When the Kharadron came out for AoS was a bit shocked- they were not like anything I was expecting - diving suits/airships rather than plate armour was a big surprise. But I really love them and I was hoping they would give the squats a similar treatment- related to other type of dwarfs but not the same.
If you look at the Battle Sisters you would be expecting them be just female space marines as those were the only female power armoured models the era the squats were about. The current design is the redesign they got, which the squats are just getting now.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
No, that looks like a generic mercenary with a Dwarf beard. It contains no faction identity or cultural signifiers whatsoever. Two relief faces are not cultural signifiers, and more relief faces does not equal more culture signified.

...you do realize the the look of the original squats was Dwarf mercenaries, right? That's the aesthetic the Squats had outside of the biker thing. so of course an updated one still looked similar to the thing it's meant to be. And he had more than two ancestor sigils.

They weren’t mercenaries, they were an army in their own right with uniforms and a specific look, and that necromunda guy isn’t it. The helmet is all wrong. All the got right were the quilted jacket and maybe the gloves. The weapons aren’t right, the beards to big and the belt buckle is all wrong.

They didn’t have a mercenary vibe any more than imperial guard did or marines.
[

Literally called Space Dwarf mercenaries.

You got me there.

The branding of that old box always bothered me. Why wasn't it named after the army list entry, as "Squat Warriors" or whatever? And yeah, the printed materials, scant as they were, didn't really paint the Squats of old as primarily a mercenary race, but as an insular and self-sufficient society in their own right. I don't know what the relative release dates for these things were, perhaps the miniatures came out first and then someone at the studio finally sat down to write backstory?

Oh bother, this is Tau all over again, isn't it? Some excellent designs that really don't look like they belong in 40k.

I get the desire to avoid encroaching on Imperial designs, and the Eldar essentially own the sleek xenotech look, but there's actually very little in between the two that doesn't look like it came from a different franchise.

Then there's the fluff that so far reads... poorly, in the context of the setting.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Oh bother, this is Tau all over again, isn't it? Some excellent designs that really don't look like they belong in 40k.

I get the desire to avoid encroaching on Imperial designs, and the Eldar essentially own the sleek xenotech look, but there's actually very little in between the two that doesn't look like it came from a different franchise.

Then there's the fluff that so far reads... poorly, in the context of the setting.

Frankly I'd go out and say that I don't mind the models (except for the fact they look like GW is just riffing on Starcraft shamelessly) all that much, compared to the fluff. It just sounds so Mary Sue-ish, doesn't it? With the extremly advanced tech (better than the factions that are supposed to be advanced), flawless cloning, mass-producing Psykers, supplying the Imperium's enemies, the perfectly egalitarian society...

I think Squats have a bit of a problem fitting in visually. They are supposed to use STC based Dark Age tech which railroads them into a certain look, but we already have Primaris that went in the direction of more modernish high tech equipment and Mechanicus that occupy the antiquated and esoteric high tech niche. I wouldn't even draw Eldar into this as it's firmly a problem basing Squat technology on human or human derived tech that is supposed to represent the prime of mankind. It's something we already have multiples of, and Squats somehow have to pull it off more betterer because they're supposed to be master craftsmen and not as technologically degenerated as the Imperium.

I think that's the reason why we got the pump action revolver bolt shotgun. The designers had to do something to make their wargear look different, but had very little breathing room at the advanced end of the human tech spectrum. I'd compare this to the Van Saar situation. Back in the day, Van Saar had Dune (the movie) inspired survival suits to invoke the idea that they had better tech than the other gangs/houses. The design was down to earth, concerned with function more than form and restrained in telling you that the gang had something going on. Skip forward to modern Necromunda and you have a massive shift to an on the nose suit design which is oftentimes considered to not fit into 40k and may have been prompted by more exaggerated designs on the other gangs. Escher for instance used to wear tank tops. Now they wear form fitting armor. Still bare midriff style to somewhat preserve their style, but leaning far more into technologically advanced territory that the shabby old Van Saar suits wouldn't cut it as the most advanced technology in comparison.

40k style is grounded in John Blanche's concepts that are generally sci-fi with archaic elements mixed in or outdated designs that got sci-fi elements tacked on. The miniature design has taken that as the look exemplified by the Imperium, and with the exception of Chaos other factions' style is as much about whatever the basis for it is as it is about how it departs from the archaic blend Blanche gave us. Tau models for instance are far, far cleaner sci-fi than Blanche's artwork of them. I'd argue this is a good and necessary thing as it strengthens faction identity and allows GW to reach a wider audience by catering to different tastes.

However this presents a pretty big problem in the case of Squats. Going back to Primaris, many of their models are already going the route of high tech look with minimized gothic elements that Squats would have to take in order to utilize the human tech look while foregoing the zany Imperial elements. There is not much space left for them to occupy.

I tend not to weigh in on whether or not new Squats are a good direction to go compared to the old Squat models but when the design direction for the faction, at least according to me, is supposed to be the aforementioned "master craftsmen and not as technologically degenerated as the Imperium", and the latter part is not easily achieved anymore, I have a hard time seeing why GW wouldn't lean more into the former part. It might have been a better reflection of the dwarf archetype to have lovingly crafted ornamentation even on mass produced equipment, giving them a similarly ostentatious look to the Imperium, but make that look more artful, regimented and devoid of (religious) clutter to set them apart while maintaining the peak human technology look without seeing how many different weapon concepts they can mash together or drawing designs from outside 40k without much adaptation to make them fit.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
The branding of that old box always bothered me. Why wasn't it named after the army list entry, as "Squat Warriors" or whatever? And yeah, the printed materials, scant as they were, didn't really paint the Squats of old as primarily a mercenary race, but as an insular and self-sufficient society in their own right. I don't know what the relative release dates for these things were, perhaps the miniatures came out first and then someone at the studio finally sat down to write backstory?

Brief background in RT (~2 pages, maybe), boxed set, then army list and the whole biker/engineer/living ancestors background.
Rogue Trader was really open, and the fluff narrowed down with each iteration (whether in WD, supplements largely reprinting WD or new editions).

Geifer wrote:They are supposed to use STC based Dark Age tech which railroads them into a certain look

How? I've been into this game since '89, and I couldn't tell you what Dark Age tech is 'supposed to' look like, let alone that it has a certain one.

For good or ill (and I lean toward the latter), the new squats are a design direction that GW picked on purpose. They aren't really constrained by anything but the art direction GW deliberately chose.