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 crumby_cataphract wrote:
Can someone point out if I'm making an error in reasoning here, or if my facts are wrong?

- We know that the LoV have Cthonian Berserks.

- We know that they have a Cthonian mining guild.

- We know that Horus was raised on Cthonia, a mining world that might have been destroyed because it was so heavily exploited for resources.

- We know that the LoV once had a closer relationship with the rest of humanity, but that something caused them to retreat into solitude and isolation

- ... the colour of the armour of the Hearthkyn Gaurd, as well as parts of the regular kin, are almost exactly the same as the colour of the armor adopted by the Lunar Wolves after being reunited with Horus.


Is GW teasing a deep connection between the LoV and the Heresy? Or even Horus himself? There are just too many odd coincidences for me to consider it all a fluke of the writing.

(And honestly, the fact that they chose to paint the models to match the SoH seems really on the nose to me.)

Retcon the Horus Heresy so that the Leagues were secretly responsible for the whole thing in order to weaken the biggest threat to them! May have gone a little too well and they've been playing the long game waiting for the best moment to capitalize on it....

Really though I'd have assumed the "Cthonia" thing was just a bit of overlap with the naming conventions (as it relates to the underworld) but considering it is such an important aspect of the lore I doubt it's just a coincidence.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Votann are of course STC. Fully functioning. Well. Kind of fully functioning. Ish. They’re slowing down. Some are proper proper broken, and for all the Leagues have maintained a tech level well above The Imperium? They’re still reliant on the STC. Take that away, and it’s their own dark age of technology and decline, just postponed a few milennia. Same benefits, same pitfalls.

As long as they don't end up with an insane machine cult "maintaining" what STC knowledge they end up with, they'll at least have different pitfalls to the Imperium's approach

So with Squats being sky dorfs in space, they'd better get a blimp. All I'm saying.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Retcon the Horus Heresy so that the Leagues were secretly responsible for the whole thing in order to weaken the biggest threat to them! May have gone a little too well and they've been playing the long game waiting for the best moment to capitalize on it....

Really though I'd have assumed the "Cthonia" thing was just a bit of overlap with the naming conventions (as it relates to the underworld) but considering it is such an important aspect of the lore I doubt it's just a coincidence.

It would be so like GW to get the name from a concept sketch from an artist who is familiar enough with the real life term to draw inspiration from it but doesn't actually know the ins and outs of the 40k background to know the term is already in use, and then the fluff writers get handed the models and their names without further comment and figure there's supposed to be a connection.

 Geifer wrote:
So with Squats being sky dorfs in space, they'd better get a blimp. All I'm saying.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Retcon the Horus Heresy so that the Leagues were secretly responsible for the whole thing in order to weaken the biggest threat to them! May have gone a little too well and they've been playing the long game waiting for the best moment to capitalize on it....

Really though I'd have assumed the "Cthonia" thing was just a bit of overlap with the naming conventions (as it relates to the underworld) but considering it is such an important aspect of the lore I doubt it's just a coincidence.

It would be so like GW to get the name from a concept sketch from an artist who is familiar enough with the real life term to draw inspiration from it but doesn't actually know the ins and outs of the 40k background to know the term is already in use, and then the fluff writers get handed the models and their names without further comment and figure there's supposed to be a connection.

All of GW’s concept work is done in-house though.

Arbitrator wrote:

 silverstu wrote:
Loving that artwork! Looks like the berserks are next to be revealed and they are from the mining guild. The new lore very much sounds like the old lore of holds, leagues and guilds, The guilds sound pretty ruthless when after profits and the freelancers sound interesting too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Love the look of the ships

Yes they look impressive- almost like giant hammers floating in space.

Hammerhead from Star Wars came to mind.

Yes! Thats what I was thinking- couldn't remember were I had seen it. Plus they have the same profile as those pick/hammers the kin carry.

Olthannon wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
[

Nothing in the lore we've been given has said their engineered souls make them less resistant to the Warp at the cost of creativity, the Votann are replacing Kin With Ironkin, or they have no idea how to reproduce (and can't) without the Votann. Infact the lore says the opposite of that last point, because the Ironhead Squats didn't take an Ancestor Core with them and have been fine.

No. But the assumption is that Ironkin are pretty much Men of Iron. They are "computationally advanced enough to mimic Kin behaviour" some even have ambition. Where does that leave the fleshy Kin when they decide they are superior? Who knows? Not us presently.

Also worth pointing out that they state in this new article the largest holds are in the millions. So we've got a small population, likely similar problems to the poor old Fantasy Dwarves. So in order to push up the numbers, more Ironkin can be made by certain Votann, if their mad superbrains were so inclined.

It says Kindreds may number several million, not Holds. Does that mean that Holds may have multiple Kindreds or is it mono-Kindred? We don't know.

A Kindred might be a few dozen strong, or a few million, but they all live, train, and toil in the same shared Hold. Kin prefer not to waste words, so “Hold” is a malleable term – it could mean a fortified outpost, a live-in factory, or a warren of tunnels. Some Holds float in the void of space, cling to asteroids, or hover on the fringe of a black hole, while others may stretch out across the surface of an entire planet.


Most Kindreds have some means of defending themselves, and some are mighty battleforces in their own rights – but they tend to unite for protection under the banner of a League.

Right but even if a Hold has multiple Kindreds, if the largest is a "few million strong" that doesn't suggest a large population in a Hold to me. It's this follow up line where they talk about uniting in a League that I took to mean mainly small Holds that band together in times of trouble for protection. A League presumably governs a small area of space that has multiple Holds. I presume similar to the Dwarf clans of Fantasy. A Hold might contain several clans depending on the size of the mine. In times of war they form the Throng and go kick shins.

Not sure you can make that jump of the poplualtio being small- I actually thought the mention of a Kindred being in the millions meant there are lots of them [I really hate the "dwindling race" narrative - I like that the KO in AoS are flourishing]. Plus they mention some holds cover the surface of entire planets which suggests a very large population. But we will see, probably my bias in what I'd like to see.
I do love how they expanded upon the old lore of the guilds, holds and Leagues. The capitalist theme could have very dark undertones- consumption to the point of destruction and it could be programmed into them as they were originally sent to the galactic core to obtain resources there. Plus it's a very dwarf trait. Really looking forward to reading more lore and stories around them.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
So with Squats being sky dorfs in space, they'd better get a blimp. All I'm saying.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Retcon the Horus Heresy so that the Leagues were secretly responsible for the whole thing in order to weaken the biggest threat to them! May have gone a little too well and they've been playing the long game waiting for the best moment to capitalize on it....

Really though I'd have assumed the "Cthonia" thing was just a bit of overlap with the naming conventions (as it relates to the underworld) but considering it is such an important aspect of the lore I doubt it's just a coincidence.

It would be so like GW to get the name from a concept sketch from an artist who is familiar enough with the real life term to draw inspiration from it but doesn't actually know the ins and outs of the 40k background to know the term is already in use, and then the fluff writers get handed the models and their names without further comment and figure there's supposed to be a connection.

All of GW’s concept work is done in-house though.

That doesn't necessarily prevent anything I said from happening?

 crumby_cataphract wrote:


Is GW teasing a deep connection between the LoV and the Heresy? Or even Horus himself? There are just too many odd coincidences for me to consider it all a fluke of the writing.

I suspect that if you were to ask a GW employee likely in the know they'd tell you "I can't say."

I am not sure whether it is not just use of the Cthonian in the original sense of the word. If GW were to make some kind of link, I think it might be something along the lines of the Guild originally being from Cthonia or having mined Cthonia in the distant past.

Iracundus wrote:
I am not sure whether it is not just use of the Cthonian in the original sense of the word. If GW were to make some kind of link, I think it might be something along the lines of the Guild originally being from Cthonia or having mined Cthonia in the distant past.

That is something I'm pondering on. We know most of the traitor worlds are classified as "Destroyed", but in what way? Exterminatus, or a complete disintegration of the entire planet?

 Geifer wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
So with Squats being sky dorfs in space, they'd better get a blimp. All I'm saying.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Retcon the Horus Heresy so that the Leagues were secretly responsible for the whole thing in order to weaken the biggest threat to them! May have gone a little too well and they've been playing the long game waiting for the best moment to capitalize on it....

Really though I'd have assumed the "Cthonia" thing was just a bit of overlap with the naming conventions (as it relates to the underworld) but considering it is such an important aspect of the lore I doubt it's just a coincidence.

It would be so like GW to get the name from a concept sketch from an artist who is familiar enough with the real life term to draw inspiration from it but doesn't actually know the ins and outs of the 40k background to know the term is already in use, and then the fluff writers get handed the models and their names without further comment and figure there's supposed to be a connection.

All of GW’s concept work is done in-house though.

That doesn't necessarily prevent anything I said from happening?

No, it just makes it highly implausible. Knowing the names of planets associated with Primarchs is hardly a deep cut and most of the design studio were fans before they were employees.

I would have hand waved the fact that they use "Cthonia" despite it already being used by Horus planet to simple coincidence (like we got with the Primaris reusing a word already used by the Psykers of the guard) but the fact that they also come with a colors-heme strangely similar to the Pre Heresy Sons of Horus is making that coincidence look like something intentional.

I can see them not really retcon the HH per say, but just try to create a connection into the lore for the LoV to try to make them look like a legit part of the setting instead of the last second random addition of the week, and that connection would be that they have been destroying planets by overmining them and have done so for millenia, and Cthonia was one of such planet, left in ruin and later turn into the cradle of Horus, with no direct contact between the miners already long gone and the Primarch.

That said, I don't see why said miners would take the name of a random planet they have mined long ago... unless it was their very first or something.

 (HN) wrote:

I can see them not really retcon the HH per say, but just try to create a connection into the lore for the LoV to try to make them look like a legit part of the setting instead of the last second random addition of the week, and that connection would be that they have been destroying planets by overmining them and have done so for millenia, and Cthonia was one of such planet, left in ruin and later turn into the cradle of Horus, with no direct contact between the miners already long gone and the Primarch.

That said, I don't see why said miners would take the name of a random planet they have mined long ago... unless it was their very first or something.

As retcons go, it would be minor and not even HH but pre-Unification of Terra even. The planet was tapped out of resources long before Horus landed on it. Also, I'd probably say that it was more likely that the planet got the name from the Squats instead of vice versa if they actually go through the minor effort of retconning it.

Kind of feel the millions thing is just the writers not doing numbers.

I.E. Eldar can be a dying race with a population of billions - when you consider its compared with the Imperium having tens of quadrillions.

Statements such as "Leagues like the Ymyr Conglomerate are massive and ancient power blocs" doesn't sound like the thing you'd say of a dwindling race. But equally, I don't think they are running round in the numbers of regular humans, orks, tyranid critters, necrons buried under the sands etc.

Tyel wrote:
Kind of feel the millions thing is just the writers not doing numbers.

I.E. Eldar can be a dying race with a population of billions - when you consider its compared with the Imperium having tens of quadrillions.

Statements such as "Leagues like the Ymyr Conglomerate are massive and ancient power blocs" doesn't sound like the thing you'd say of a dwindling race. But equally, I don't think they are running round in the numbers of regular humans, orks, tyranid critters, necrons buried under the sands etc.

I don't get the impression that it was them giving both the smallest and the biggest Kindred sizes and there are none over a few dozen and none over a few million though, it seemed like it was just an example of the sort of different scales they could potentially be and that regardless of how big or small they are, the Kin in a Kindred are all working together.

 warboss wrote:

 (HN) wrote:

I can see them not really retcon the HH per say, but just try to create a connection into the lore for the LoV to try to make them look like a legit part of the setting instead of the last second random addition of the week, and that connection would be that they have been destroying planets by overmining them and have done so for millenia, and Cthonia was one of such planet, left in ruin and later turn into the cradle of Horus, with no direct contact between the miners already long gone and the Primarch.

That said, I don't see why said miners would take the name of a random planet they have mined long ago... unless it was their very first or something.

As retcons go, it would be minor and not even HH but pre-Unification of Terra even. The planet was tapped out of resources long before Horus landed on it. Also, I'd probably say that it was more likely that the planet got the name from the Squats instead of vice versa if they actually go through the minor effort of retconning it.

This is much how I imagine them doing it, honestly. The Kin seem to have existed in one form or another since before the Age of Strife. This means that their time on Cthonia could far, far predate even the other human colonists that found Horus. It all seems really intriguing to me, honestly.

 warboss wrote:

 (HN) wrote:

I can see them not really retcon the HH per say, but just try to create a connection into the lore for the LoV to try to make them look like a legit part of the setting instead of the last second random addition of the week, and that connection would be that they have been destroying planets by overmining them and have done so for millenia, and Cthonia was one of such planet, left in ruin and later turn into the cradle of Horus, with no direct contact between the miners already long gone and the Primarch.

That said, I don't see why said miners would take the name of a random planet they have mined long ago... unless it was their very first or something.

As retcons go, it would be minor and not even HH but pre-Unification of Terra even. The planet was tapped out of resources long before Horus landed on it. Also, I'd probably say that it was more likely that the planet got the name from the Squats instead of vice versa if they actually go through the minor effort of retconning it.

Yeah, this is how I see them doing it too.
Having one of the most prestigious legion be based on a world intimately tied to a League of Votann (even if it was centuries ago) without having anyone ask question is a bit iffy tho, especially if we retcon the Sons of Horus colorsheme as being... based on that League original colorsheme.

More than centuries, more like millennia ago. Maybe it is because long ago, like DAoT long ago, the miners of Cthonia became rich and powerful then moved on, leaving behind a devastated world that dimly remembered the colors of those miners/their Guild/corporation in their cultural associations, such as how certain colors can be seen as more lucky/prosperous than others in certain RL cultures. They may not actually remember who those miners were or anything about them. If we are talking millennia or tens of millennia timescale, it may be beyond the memory of anyone in the 40k universe to make the link and it is a link only we as readers outside of the universe can make.

I mean in the current 40k era, how many people would a) be able to recognize the colors of the Sons of Horus and b) be in a position to have knowledge of the LoV. Only Inquisitors or maybe certain academic Adepts, and then if they proposed some sort of link, they would be dismissed as crazy or at best a mere coincidence of colors. It's not unknown for SM and xenos to use similar colors but no other conclusions or conspiracy theories are made based on use of the same colors. Blood Angels and Saim-Hann. Black Legion and Ulthwe.

Ah. So the Squat's specific flavour of Grimdark is "Post-Industrial Capitolism". How topical.

Iracundus wrote:
More than centuries, more like millennia ago. Maybe it is because long ago, like DAoT long ago, the miners of Cthonia became rich and powerful then moved on, leaving behind a devastated world that dimly remembered the colors of those miners/their Guild/corporation in their cultural associations, such as how certain colors can be seen as more lucky/prosperous than others in certain RL cultures. They may not actually remember who those miners were or anything about them. If we are talking millennia or tens of millennia timescale, it may be beyond the memory of anyone in the 40k universe to make the link and it is a link only we as readers outside of the universe can make.

I mean in the current 40k era, how many people would a) be able to recognize the colors of the Sons of Horus and b) be in a position to have knowledge of the LoV. Only Inquisitors or maybe certain academic Adepts, and then if they proposed some sort of link, they would be dismissed as crazy or at best a mere coincidence of colors. It's not unknown for SM and xenos to use similar colors but no other conclusions or conspiracy theories are made based on use of the same colors. Blood Angels and Saim-Hann. Black Legion and Ulthwe.

Sure, I fully acknowledge that past a couple of millennia, information will be distorted and lost (especially during periods like the DAoT, but here's the thing, we end up hitting once again the simple question: Where were all thos pre DAoT LoV during the Great Crusade and the Subsequent HH that literally engulfed the whole galaxy in its entirety?

While I can fully believe that the memory of the miners that tapped out Cthonia may have be totally lost after millenia, I have a hard time believing that SOMEHOW, the name, Cthonia, and the specific color managed to pass without any problem, and apparently NOBODY encountered said LoV guild using the name and color of the massive and extremely well known legion of Horus himself.
Not ONCE that league with its very specific name and color got encountered during that period...

That's the main problem with that retcon right there. I'd be totally fine if they just explained the state of Cthonia has being the result of a random LoV prospect millennia before the arrival of Horus, but trying to force the "brand recognition" with the name and color just feel silly.

What next? The League of Ultramar and their blue armor?

Anvildude wrote:
Ah. So the Squat's specific flavour of Grimdark is "Post-Industrial Capitolism". How topical.

With “benevolent” AI overlord sprinkles!

 (HN) wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
More than centuries, more like millennia ago. Maybe it is because long ago, like DAoT long ago, the miners of Cthonia became rich and powerful then moved on, leaving behind a devastated world that dimly remembered the colors of those miners/their Guild/corporation in their cultural associations, such as how certain colors can be seen as more lucky/prosperous than others in certain RL cultures. They may not actually remember who those miners were or anything about them. If we are talking millennia or tens of millennia timescale, it may be beyond the memory of anyone in the 40k universe to make the link and it is a link only we as readers outside of the universe can make.

I mean in the current 40k era, how many people would a) be able to recognize the colors of the Sons of Horus and b) be in a position to have knowledge of the LoV. Only Inquisitors or maybe certain academic Adepts, and then if they proposed some sort of link, they would be dismissed as crazy or at best a mere coincidence of colors. It's not unknown for SM and xenos to use similar colors but no other conclusions or conspiracy theories are made based on use of the same colors. Blood Angels and Saim-Hann. Black Legion and Ulthwe.

Sure, I fully acknowledge that past a couple of millennia, information will be distorted and lost (especially during periods like the DAoT, but here's the thing, we end up hitting once again the simple question: Where were all thos pre DAoT LoV during the Great Crusade and the Subsequent HH that literally engulfed the whole galaxy in its entirety?

While I can fully believe that the memory of the miners that tapped out Cthonia may have be totally lost after millenia, I have a hard time believing that SOMEHOW, the name, Cthonia, and the specific color managed to pass without any problem, and apparently NOBODY encountered said LoV guild using the name and color of the massive and extremely well known legion of Horus himself.
Not ONCE that league with its very specific name and color got encountered during that period...

That's the main problem with that retcon right there. I'd be totally fine if they just explained the state of Cthonia has being the result of a random LoV prospect millennia before the arrival of Horus, but trying to force the "brand recognition" with the name and color just feel silly.

What next? The League of Ultramar and their blue armor?

Why must the LoV or specifically the Cthonian Mining Guild have been encountered during the Heresy? For example, the followers of the Laughing God hid in the Webway and did not come out until M33 after they were reformed as the Harlequins (per the 1st Harlequin Codex timeline). So the entire subfaction of Harlequins was not known or seen during the Heresy. Whole minor races or worlds survived uncontacted during the Great Crusade and Heresy.

There is the issue of language. The Kin have their own language. The Gothic term and the Kin term might both translate into Cthonian in English, but there is no guarantee the Imperium knows the full Kin term given how insular the LoV are said to be or that Gothic translations would map precisely onto whatever the Gothic word is for Cthonia. The whole Cthonia word recognition in English could be a 4th wall breaking nudge and wink for readers to understand the link. In-universe, it might in Gothic be translated into "Deep Under the Earth Mining Guild" in Gothic if anyone even makes a translation attempt. Nobody might then make the link to that very specific planet of Cthonia.

Actually also one nitpick. We know the Greater Thurian League uses the color, but not what color the Cthonian Mining Guild uses. For all we know, it could be an entirely different color that cuts across League boundaries, in the way that Aspect Warrior colors cut across Craftworld boundaries.

All of this is again speculation based on the premise that there is even a link. Just as there are Tau Pathfinders and Eldar Pathfinders, "cthonian" as a word concept can exist independently across species and languages, but all translated to the same word in English, with there being no direct link.

On Cthonia.

Cthonia was destroyed circa M31. The Sons of Horus is a Legion scrubbed from Imperial Records - and a name not used by Chaos forces for around 10,000 years, give or take a decade or two.

Who….who exactly is going to be familiar enough with an erased history of an erased legion that abandoned that name to link the two? How many in the Imperium will know, or even care, that a subset of Squats uses the name Cthonia in the first place?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Cthonia.

Cthonia was destroyed circa M31. The Sons of Horus is a Legion scrubbed from Imperial Records - and a name not used by Chaos forces for around 10,000 years, give or take a decade or two.

Who….who exactly is going to be familiar enough with an erased history of an erased legion that abandoned that name to link the two? How many in the Imperium will know, or even care, that a subset of Squats uses the name Cthonia in the first place?

I said as much in a previous post but I think one point (HN) was raising was why no one noticed pre-Heresy, and I addressed that in my last post.

In the end, there is still much unknown about the LoV and we all still have to wait and see what comes out and how they fit into the existing universe.

Because I know absolutely nowt about it I had a quick sniff on the old warhammer lexicanum and interestingly enough it says diddly squat about the Mechanicum mining it out.

What it actually says is:

The world of Cthonia existed in one of Terra's closest neighbouring star systems. Being within reach of even non-Warp-capable spacecraft, Cthonia had been colonised, built upon, tunnelled and mined probably since the dawn of human interstellar space travel before even the Age of Technology had begun.

As such, all of the world's natural resources had been stripped away and used millennia before, and the planet's ancient mining technology had long since been rediscovered and removed by the tech-priests of Mars.

Apparently that bit of info comes from the Index Astartes IV, so if anyone has that to hand I'd be interested to see if that is confirmed.

The techpriests of Mars rediscovered (key word here) and removed the ancient mining tech.

If they are rediscovering it after it was abandoned there is no actual suggestion it was the Mechanicum that mined it out. Arguably the opposite. So if all that lines up, it wouldn't be a "retcon" at all that it was the Squats who first mined the planet.

Anvildude wrote:
Ah. So the Squat's specific flavour of Grimdark is "Post-Industrial Capitolism". How topical.

But they clearly aren't post industrial. Nor is there any indication their economy is capitalist in nature.

The homeworld of the Sons of Horus is Cthonia, but the real-life word it's based off has an extra 'h' in there - Chthonic being the word describing something related to the underworld. The fact that the Cthonian Mining Guilds also lack that 'h' means that the name is more likely derived from being of the planet than of delving underground.

or the custom Word dictionary writers get to spell check Warhammer words has a mistake in

I was hoping that they would have had another mini preview this weekend. Oh well.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I was hoping that they would have had another mini preview this weekend. Oh well.

I don't recall there being any weekend previews before?

I picked up a squad of 8 from the Necromunda set. I'll be getting three or four more boxes, just for kicks. This gang is a great springboard for exploration teams. They remind me of the little guys in Heavy Metal, who dug up the Loc Nar, and were in the background with the Archeotech Minder. ( Erp.. I forgot about Heavy Metal. NSFW, and all that... ) If you've already seen it, ignore the nekkid ladies.

I'm hooked.

Picked up a box, a truck, and am digging out some of the unbuilt terrain for my strongpoints, and outposts, as well as a gang fort, built out of Imperial shipping containers, sprues, some toys, and some model railroad equipment....

Squat homestead and the outpost looks pretty awesome so far.

Not a bad start.