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So in re-reading Honor Guard, by Dan Abnett (One of the Gaunts Ghosts books) they fight a battle near the end of the book, where a tank regiment of LR take on and defeat a corrupted Baneblade. In the fight many infantry die, and many of the tanks. After the battle, the Guard soldiers make graves for the dead and put together wooden crosses to mark the dead. Is there any reason in the lore why the Christian symbol of martyrdom and sacrifice is still used? I know the Holy Imperial Church is HEAVILY Catholic themed, but I feel like direct religious iconography from a long dead religion like the Catholic and Christian churches would be frowned upon, if not viewed as direct blasphemy. Was the Emperor crucified at some point, making this symbol relevant, and I just haven't read it? It just struck me as odd.

Or is this just Abnett not thinking about the minor details as he's writing?

Also, I realized when reading this, and looking at a baneblade, if you got a squad of men ONTOP of a baneblade, there is really nothing the crew could do about it. The baneblade has no top mounted weapons to sweep itself off. It could carry a pintle mounted Storm Bolter I guess, but still. A squad of men with tube charges getting on top has to be a really bad defensive oversight.

I'd say imperial iconography overall is something one shouldn't "overthink". Any cultural references we see in 40K, be it to the Christian religion, or Vikings, or Mongols or whatever shouldn't realistically survive until 40000 years in the future.
It's probably best to see these as some kind of convergent evolution.

Crosses probably became a symbol of sacrifice over time. Just like the saltire used on the Death Company. Many deaths are marked with the crucifix in modern times, even when the dead were not Christian. You can imagine after 10's of thousands of years the Christian connection will fade. Many Christian festivals like Easter were originally pagan festivals, but go co-opted. Generally when people think of Easter they think of it as a Christian, but it had older roots. Symbols can change meaning quite quickly too if it is associated with a major impactful historic event, like the swastika.

Being buried under crosses was likely used because it is what we currently do. And that helps in the understanding of the story.

On the Baneblade and boarders, well the Baneblade is quite big. The hull must be a story high. That would be challenging to climb, especially when moving. And you couldn't use the tracks as rungs, because they would be moving. And if you did get on top, friendly forces would help. If you are alone, like most lone units, you are in trouble.

Tygre wrote:
Crosses probably became a symbol of sacrifice over time. Just like the saltire used on the Death Company. Many deaths are marked with the crucifix in modern times, even when the dead were not Christian. You can imagine after 10's of thousands of years the Christian connection will fade. Many Christian festivals like Easter were originally pagan festivals, but go co-opted. Generally when people think of Easter they think of it as a Christian, but it had older roots. Symbols can change meaning quite quickly too if it is associated with a major impactful historic event, like the swastika.

Being buried under crosses was likely used because it is what we currently do. And that helps in the understanding of the story.

On the Baneblade and boarders, well the Baneblade is quite big. The hull must be a story high. That would be challenging to climb, especially when moving. And you couldn't use the tracks as rungs, because they would be moving. And if you did get on top, friendly forces would help. If you are alone, like most lone units, you are in trouble.

I see your point about the crosses.

As for a "story high" that's only 10 feet. You could step out of a 2nd floor window onto the top of one. An Astartes could jump down from far higher. A single Tyranid could run and jump onto it, easily slice open the hatch, and eat the crew. As a matter of fact, in Shadowsword, that's essentially what 3 world eaters do. They hop onto them, rip off the hatch, and slaughter the crew. How is that not an oversight?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As for a "story high" that's only 10 feet. You could step out of a 2nd floor window onto the top of one. An Astartes could jump down from far higher. A single Tyranid could run and jump onto it, easily slice open the hatch, and eat the crew. As a matter of fact, in Shadowsword, that's essentially what 3 world eaters do. They hop onto them, rip off the hatch, and slaughter the crew. How is that not an oversight?

Oh yeah just casually stroll up to the tank with a standard loadout of a Baneblade Cannon, co-ax Autocannon, 3 twin Heavy Bolters, 2 Lascannons, and a Demolisher Cannon that will be firing all of these guns at you and your fellows. No biggie. Hey, they might even have an extra set of sponsons or have the sponson Bolters replaced with Heavy Flamers. And if you somehow survive all of that then the crew might also have pintle-mounted weapons for defence purposes.
But let's ignore the guns for a minute and take a look at the armour, which is thick and tough enough to shrug off Railgun rounds.
Even ignoring the armour, you're now on the turret (which can move at any time) and now you have to cut your way through the plating to get inside if you want to do serious damage. Oops, its just you and there are two cupolas which means when you start cutting through one, the other opens and the crew shoots you.
It's not an oversight that 3 Astartes could rush a tank designed for Titan killing and destroy it in CQC because funnily enough, that tank in theory should have large amounts of infantry protection to stop that. Could it be that the example you gave was part of a wider battle where any and all considerations to the Shadowsword's safety were a little preoccupied with not dying themselves?

Yeah, the pintle mount is supposed to serve that exact purpose.

The Baneblade and Hellhammer can also be built with a lasgun mount on the rear of the turret, for additional protection (similar to a lot of WWII tanks). Doesn't look as good as the turret bin though IMO.

Ultimately, this is just the conventional wisdom of an unsupported tank being a dead tank. This has been true since tanks first rolled onto the battlefields of the Western Front, it is true today, it is still true in 40k. Combined arms is king. It doesn't even need to be surrounding infantry, a friendly tank nearby can safely hose off a tank with MG fire. A Baneblade is immune to heavy bolters- a supporting Leman Russ squadron could easily do this.

Tygre wrote:

On the Baneblade and boarders, well the Baneblade is quite big. The hull must be a story high. That would be challenging to climb, especially when moving. And you couldn't use the tracks as rungs, because they would be moving. And if you did get on top, friendly forces would help. If you are alone, like most lone units, you are in trouble.

Baneblades do literally have ladders on the side to climb up them. Yes, climbing up on a moving tank is challenging and very dangerous, but it is doable. And yes, the crew will be shooting you with their pintle mounted weapons and whatever small arms they have. But you are vulnerable. This isn't an oversight, it is a weakness of tanks in a sense. People have been climbing on tanks to try and take out the crew since tanks have been a thing.

If you want to erect a grave marker which is upright, simple, and has space for an easily legible inscription, a cross is a very logical solution.

So it's funny, because in the very next chapter they talk about how the pilgrims of St Sabat erect Stone columns or just stone blocks, to mark their dead. This seems like an entirely Tanith thing to do.

A good question to ask, take a literal baby, give it 12 years of being raised in a sterile environment, say the moon. With ZERO education about religion. Would a cross have a single possible meaning to that person? No. Other than to notice that it's completely unnatural, and built by something not nature.

Its pretty obvious that all surviving major religions from today were co-opted by the Imperial Creed. Considering the Chrisian symbols, I think we can safely assume that Christianity in some form survived until at least the 32nd Millenium.

Now HOW exactly it got co-opted from a theological stand point is hard to fathom. Perhaps the Emperor was heralded as the second coming? Considering how bad the age of strife was, that seems like a pretty good assumption.

This is my original self doubt moment. I thought the Emperor did away with all religions in this great moment of Atheistic pride, "I am the one true god" style things, where he basically outlawed the previous belief systems. That's why the Perpetual who stood up to Horus, Palontius or what ever his name was, being a "Cat-o-lic" was kind of a big deal. He didn't believe in the divinity of the Emperor. He believed in Jesus Christ.

Edit: Or excuse me, it's heavily implied he was a catholic, not a member of the imperial church. Whatever shape it was in at that time...

For starters, the Emperor's attempt at banning religion didn't really work or have enough time to be implemented. That sort of thing takes a lot more time to accomplish than even the crusades would have taken, and then he got permanently disabled and put on the golden throne.

And the fact that there is now an Imperial cult even though the Emperor tried to do away with religion is, to be sort of blunt, supposed to be one of the indicators about how things are going for the Imperium of Man.

In that sort of situation, it's entirely plausible for one of the minor immortals to be a member of an ancient religion and distinctly not a member of the Imperial Cult. Just keep in mind that the people who knew the Emperor personally typically don't go around trying to get people to stop worshipping him, for various obvious reasons--there are fights not even the most powerful Space Marine can win.

On the one hand, the audience will be familiar with the idea of wooden crosses to mark graves and therefore, why go to any length to invent a whole new system that then needs to be explained.

On the other hand, following Lord Damocles' point, using a cross to mark some kind of information is not unique to graves:


In your "baby" scenario, it is concevable that a cross is the final result of the parallel evolution of trying to present visual information at a specific location.

Cross is an easy way to mark a grave.

X marks the spot.

I'm another vote for it just being an easy sign.

Sharpen a stake shove it in the ground. Add a board with a name and it's a primitive cross.

A sword (common symbol) stuck in the ground looks much the same...


It's been a while, but I think that the emp was fairly successful against the former organizations.

What he couldn't stop was people turning back to religion (for good and ill) after he did his best to rid them of it.

I think it's less "co-opted" then re-invented from the poorly remembered ashes (found texts, etc...) to serve a need both personal and political for the emp's "followers".

 Dekskull wrote:
Its pretty obvious that all surviving major religions from today were co-opted by the Imperial Creed. Considering the Chrisian symbols, I think we can safely assume that Christianity in some form survived until at least the 32nd Millenium.

Nah, there are no reasons to assume that. As a derived and assembled religion (Judaism+ Greek mystery cults+ whatever else the various locals had laying around, then culled and chosen with an Officially Curated Canon centuries later, starting with 325 at First Council of Nicaea), its symbols are inherited, generally universal or blatantly stolen from other faiths. We're simply accustomed to the current meanings (see snake as healer rather than tempter, and various Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian and Greek crosses (the latter being associated with the goddess Diana). Its also not unusual for writers to be unable to shed the taught culture of their childhoods, and simple assume that what they 'know' is what is 'normal.'

The cross marking a burial is for a number of reasons. Brevity in writing is probably the main one. The author didn't feel like detailing exact burial rituals and customs, so her used a shorthand we'd all understand. Try not to overthink it.

Having said that, crosses are easy to make and serve a functional purpose if you want to mark a location or add a name to the grave. Also of note, even Christian graveyards tend not to be full of crosses. Most headstones are rectangular blocks of stone rather than crosses, which further supports the idea that crosses are just a handy, easy marker to construct.

Well also Dan Abnett's presentation of the setting is pretty much World War II England with Warhammer sprinkled on top. (That's ok, its part of the reason why the books are such a big hit).

But I still think the Imperial Creed deliberately appropriated Christian symbols for its own purpose and some theology as well.

I remember reading about an Imperial Nun (or whatever they are called) in the third edition rule book talking about the Emperor perpetually suffering on the golden throne for the salvation of humanity. In that passage the golden throne sure sounds similar to the cross!

I suspect that the main reason that Christian iconography is so present in 40K is that it was written, edited and published by people that grew up in western culture with a heavy Christian influence. Sort by default setting. Also 40K has always adopted the gothic architecture often associated with European Christian churches etc so again it may just happen by default for some authors.

However in the context provided by the OP are the graves and grave markers made for religious purposes? The cult of the emperor if very much all about worshiping the emperor and doing what you are told by the religious and non religious authority. It’s all about compliance. Does the creed extend as far as governing civilian burials? I’m surprised in 40K that bodies aren’t composted or used to grease the axels on titans

Has nobody thought that it was maybe this "X" as a cross?
Also the graves are for soldiers made just after combat, they aren't elaborate burials just simple "this person died here" markers.

Crosses are still very much part of Imperial iconography. Generally they do seem to be associated with warriors.
Space Marines generally use it in the form of the Crux Terminatus to display veteran status. Cato Sicarius has a cross on his left knee which is referred to as the "Warrior's cross of Ultramar" and of course the Black Templars have a cross as their symbol, which dates back to the Great Crusade. More recently they've had the Indomitus Crusade campaign badge.
Outside the Space Marines the Adeptus Custodes are known to bear the cross, and the Knightly Houses and some Adeptus Mechanicus war machines also bear a cross with leaf shaped ends. Even the Imperial Guard have awards like the Macharian Cross or the Knight of Medusa.
The cross then seem to have stuck around more due to it's association with military honours than any direct contact with Christianity.

As simple grave markers, crossed planks provide space for the name of the occupant, and hold it up, without using a significant amount of material.

So without aiming to insult anyone of any faith, they’re quite practical for the purpose.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As simple grave markers, crossed planks provide space for the name of the occupant, and hold it up, without using a significant amount of material.

So without aiming to insult anyone of any faith, they’re quite practical for the purpose.

Also there is a difference between a cross and a crucifix. As I understand it a cross where the lines intersect exactly in the middle isn’t a Christian symbol, but happy to be schooled on that.

Are there any Pentecostals here? I would like to clarify about the ministry. As they say, the service itself is usually divided into two parts — "glorification", during which hymns are sung more energetically, and "worship", during which calmer music sounds. In a number of Pentecostal communities (mostly charismatic), vivid emotional manifestations are practiced at divine services: screams, falls, crying, laughter, etc. In different communities, depending on the settings of the pastor, a different set of musical instruments is used and different musical styles are used at worship services (in some churches, even "Christian metal" or "Christian rap" can be played). Can anyone tell me if this is true or not? They say that you can study in detail with the help of First Church Love

Obvious modern cultural references/aesthetic explanations (Emperor being Jesus) aside I think there's a little side lore explanation for 40K Imperial symbolism that might fit in here.
If you look in the Militarum Tempestus codex, on the unit page for the Tempestus Scions regiment 68th Deltic Lions, their unit symbol is the Black Spade, just like on an Ace of Spades from a suite in a deck of cards.
The excerpt below their unit symbol reads as follows
"The provenance of the symbol born by the 68th Deltic Lions is unclear. Some believe it to be an ancient Terran symbol associated with victory in the face of misfortune. If so it would certainly seem apt, for the Lions have endured and achieved victory amid some of the most horrific conditions in the galaxy."

Obviously 40K years into the future, all modern games such as cards, chess, or checkers would be long gone and their meanings and symbolism would be lost. But the imagery remains. The same can apply for crosses, and all manner of mythological creatures and imagery found in 40K (Space Marine chapters are routinely named after Gorgons, Minotaurs, Hydras, etc despite that fact that Greek Mythology is long forgotten).

Now why the Eldar Craftworld of Biel-Tan has a red heart symbol as part of their livery is beyond me

Chess is still around (in Abnett‘s books again), it’s just evolved into a game called Regicide.

One of the Cadian upgrade heads features two playing cards - one of which is a spade!

It's a mistake to assume all crosses used as grave markers are emblems of belief in Christianity.

Examples of the Byzantine cross used in gravesites pre-date Christianity by about 600 years. Conciliation crosses exist across Europe that date back to pre-Christian times.

Symbols and their meaning are relevant to the culture, not universal to other contexts. There's something about the shape of a cross that makes it useful outside a symbolic context. For instance, I have several cross-shaped objects in my garden, marking where the tomatoes, herbs and vegetables are (so I don't need to explain it to others.) There's nothing religious about that.

As a grave marker, the form of a cross would allow you to etch in a name. I think the example cited is just the mourning mind finding a suitable totem to memorialize the fallen.

 techsoldaten wrote:
It's a mistake to assume all crosses used as grave markers are emblems of belief in Christianity.

Examples of the Byzantine cross used in gravesites pre-date Christianity by about 600 years. Conciliation crosses exist across Europe that date back to pre-Christian times.

Symbols and their meaning are relevant to the culture, not universal to other contexts. There's something about the shape of a cross that makes it useful outside a symbolic context. For instance, I have several cross-shaped objects in my garden, marking where the tomatoes, herbs and vegetables are (so I don't need to explain it to others.) There's nothing religious about that.

As a grave marker, the form of a cross would allow you to etch in a name. I think the example cited is just the mourning mind finding a suitable totem to memorialize the fallen.

Christianity arose in the 1st Century AD. The Byzantine Empire didn't arise until around the 5th Century. You're saying Byzantine crosses were present in 500 BC? They didn't come about until the 6th Century.

In the early pre-Christian times, the Cross in a Circle was a widely used Pagan symbol. I don't know what it represented, but I'm nearly positive thats where the Christians stole it from. Excuse me, adopted.