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Pickled_egg wrote:
I think I'd rather Ork Boyz go back to T4 if that's what it takes to get a points reduction back to 6-7 points which is where Ork boyz should be.

The T5 does practically nothing in this meta.

It's also a kick in the teeth that other factions keep getting stratagems to regrow models GSC, tyranids and now the new Tzaangor army of renown.

Where is green tide?

The ork codex feels so incredibly weak in this new meta but they will probably hit us with more nerfs to go with all the others.

T5 doesn't do nothing, it still makes str 5 wound on a 4 vs these plentiful str 5 guns vs a 3. honestly it is the morale losses that kill orks now, bring back mod rule and/or bosspoles and that gets sorted.

I also think and have always though orks should have a 7+ armor save but a 6+ feel no pain, then your beast snagga snakebites can have a 5+ fnp. bring back the option to buy eavy armor and bake in eavy armor for some elite units so they might actually reach combat or survive on an objective.

My biggest issue playing against Orks has been how flimsy they feel. Like sure the 5T saves some wounds from even becoming a thing, but just watching everything and anything penetrate their armor is disappointing. 5+ should have been the standard, but I don't think there'd be an issue with 4+ being the go-to for Orks and 3+ on 'ardboyz.

Our Ork player gets by having a transport taking the worst of it, but as soon as that transport is gone... man, do the orks inside evaporate. Feels not very fluffy to me. Especially given they wear whatever scrap they can lash to their bodies... you'd think a blown out vehicle chassis would protect mildly better than a guard flak jacket by virtue of bulk alone.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My biggest issue playing against Orks has been how flimsy they feel. Like sure the 5T saves some wounds from even becoming a thing, but just watching everything and anything penetrate their armor is disappointing. 5+ should have been the standard, but I don't think there'd be an issue with 4+ being the go-to for Orks and 3+ on 'ardboyz.

Our Ork player gets by having a transport taking the worst of it, but as soon as that transport is gone... man, do the orks inside evaporate. Feels not very fluffy to me. Especially given they wear whatever scrap they can lash to their bodies... you'd think a blown out vehicle chassis would protect mildly better than a guard flak jacket by virtue of bulk alone.

In lore, orks shrug off las fire, the bolts just fizzling off. On the table top it takes like 3 shots. I woulda done t4 but -1 to wound on them or something, then keep the 5++ kustom force field. Shift doks to a 5+++ in exchange for being way more expensive and give armor options for all infantry, and orks would be proppa tough. Then you have to solve the problem of their killyness. Jeez orks haven’t. Been updated in forever.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My biggest issue playing against Orks has been how flimsy they feel. Like sure the 5T saves some wounds from even becoming a thing, but just watching everything and anything penetrate their armor is disappointing. 5+ should have been the standard, but I don't think there'd be an issue with 4+ being the go-to for Orks and 3+ on 'ardboyz.

Our Ork player gets by having a transport taking the worst of it, but as soon as that transport is gone... man, do the orks inside evaporate. Feels not very fluffy to me. Especially given they wear whatever scrap they can lash to their bodies... you'd think a blown out vehicle chassis would protect mildly better than a guard flak jacket by virtue of bulk alone.

You realise that even a fleshborer a basic infantry weapon on a cheap trash troop choice is now S5 right?

Have you played any games with Orks into this meta? This meta is full of smart missiles, eldar weapon platforms, night spinners & S5 custodes.

T5 in this meta is meaningless which is how I carefully worded my statement.

If the meta was a Bolter meta then yeah T5 would be a thing, but it isn't.

Putting it another way, If I increase a units durability by 10% but then damage across the board goes up 15% where does that leave your unit?
Particularly when that unit has zero armour to speak of.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My biggest issue playing against Orks has been how flimsy they feel. Like sure the 5T saves some wounds from even becoming a thing, but just watching everything and anything penetrate their armor is disappointing. 5+ should have been the standard, but I don't think there'd be an issue with 4+ being the go-to for Orks and 3+ on 'ardboyz.

Our Ork player gets by having a transport taking the worst of it, but as soon as that transport is gone... man, do the orks inside evaporate. Feels not very fluffy to me. Especially given they wear whatever scrap they can lash to their bodies... you'd think a blown out vehicle chassis would protect mildly better than a guard flak jacket by virtue of bulk alone.

It's almost like pumping firepower with every new release for the last fifteen years has produced a game that's too lethal to band-aid patch your way out of with one release worth of Toughness buffs.

Pickled_egg wrote:
I think I'd rather Ork Boyz go back to T4 if that's what it takes to get a points reduction back to 6-7 points which is where Ork boyz should be.

The T5 does practically nothing in this meta.

It's also a kick in the teeth that other factions keep getting stratagems to regrow models GSC, tyranids and now the new Tzaangor army of renown.

Where is green tide?

The ork codex feels so incredibly weak in this new meta but they will probably hit us with more nerfs to go with all the others.

I don't like spammable boyz.

I'd keep the current profile, just with easy/cheap access to immunity to morale, good old 5++ KFF and cheaper painboyz with a native ability to resurrect fallen models. Maybe also access to 4+ save 'ard boyz and/or S5 on the charge for all klans. I want units of orks to be good damage dealers and able to soak some damage rather than a huge amount of cheap wounds there are taken only to overwhelm the already overcrowded board.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My biggest issue playing against Orks has been how flimsy they feel. Like sure the 5T saves some wounds from even becoming a thing, but just watching everything and anything penetrate their armor is disappointing. 5+ should have been the standard, but I don't think there'd be an issue with 4+ being the go-to for Orks and 3+ on 'ardboyz.

Our Ork player gets by having a transport taking the worst of it, but as soon as that transport is gone... man, do the orks inside evaporate. Feels not very fluffy to me. Especially given they wear whatever scrap they can lash to their bodies... you'd think a blown out vehicle chassis would protect mildly better than a guard flak jacket by virtue of bulk alone.

The issue as many have mentioned is the sheer firepower coming our way these days. T5 on its own does do something...just not nearly as much as everyone thought it would. In a game where the most common troop choice to place at events is Custodes and Troupe's both of which have 4+ invuln saves and usually -1 to hit...that's your benchmark for durability. And don't even forget for a second that those Troupe Players and custodes aren't just running around unsupported, their entire shtick is that you are spending CP on them and giving them loads of re-rolls and special rules to make them useful.

So simply giving boyz a 5+ armor save wouldn't do much, especially in a meta where -1AP is so damn common these days, look at Tau firewarriors for instance, in Montka their basic Firewarrior is S5 -2AP...for 9ppm btw.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

T5 doesn't do nothing, it still makes str 5 wound on a 4 vs these plentiful str 5 guns vs a 3. honestly it is the morale losses that kill orks now, bring back mod rule and/or bosspoles and that gets sorted.

I also think and have always though orks should have a 7+ armor save but a 6+ feel no pain, then your beast snagga snakebites can have a 5+ fnp. bring back the option to buy eavy armor and bake in eavy armor for some elite units so they might actually reach combat or survive on an objective.

No, T5 does almost nothing. Yeah it makes S5 wound on 4s which is great, but there is more S5 in the game now than ever before, S5 is the new S4 for all intents and purposes. The fact that Nidz basic troop is getting S5 as their basic option says a lot. Custards are all S5, their Sagz are running around with Heavy bolters etc.

And sadly a 6+ FNP would be worse for the game because it slows the game down far too much now thanks to all the basic infantry weapons with D2. Think about how you would have to roll dice for saves against multiple wounds from D2+ weapons. Every single one would have to be rolled separately because you would need that many 6s to save the model..it would just needlessly slow the game down. unfortunately with how much AP is floating around in the game these days, its pretty much invuln or nothing, especially for 1 wound models. Again, look at the most common troop choices appearing at the top tables, Harlequins and Custards. all have invulns, -1 to hit and other defensive buffs like Transhuman, no re-rolls etc. I would love for the Dok to have a useful role in our army but simply providing a bubble of 6+ FNP isn't going to cut it.

 Blackie wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
I think I'd rather Ork Boyz go back to T4 if that's what it takes to get a points reduction back to 6-7 points which is where Ork boyz should be.

The T5 does practically nothing in this meta.

It's also a kick in the teeth that other factions keep getting stratagems to regrow models GSC, tyranids and now the new Tzaangor army of renown.

Where is green tide?

The ork codex feels so incredibly weak in this new meta but they will probably hit us with more nerfs to go with all the others.

I don't like spammable boyz.

I'd keep the current profile, just with easy/cheap access to immunity to morale, good old 5++ KFF and cheaper painboyz with a native ability to resurrect fallen models. Maybe also access to 4+ save 'ard boyz and/or S5 on the charge for all klans. I want units of orks to be good damage dealers and able to soak some damage rather than a huge amount of cheap wounds there are taken only to overwhelm the already overcrowded board.

My brother in Gork, the entire point of boyz is to flood the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would give them t4 still, but -1 to wound, base 4+ armor, and revert all the buffs to 8e.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Pickled_egg wrote:
I think I'd rather Ork Boyz go back to T4 if that's what it takes to get a points reduction back to 6-7 points which is where Ork boyz should be.

The T5 does practically nothing in this meta.

It's also a kick in the teeth that other factions keep getting stratagems to regrow models GSC, tyranids and now the new Tzaangor army of renown.

Where is green tide?

The ork codex feels so incredibly weak in this new meta but they will probably hit us with more nerfs to go with all the others.

I don't like spammable boyz.

I'd keep the current profile, just with easy/cheap access to immunity to morale, good old 5++ KFF and cheaper painboyz with a native ability to resurrect fallen models. Maybe also access to 4+ save 'ard boyz and/or S5 on the charge for all klans. I want units of orks to be good damage dealers and able to soak some damage rather than a huge amount of cheap wounds there are taken only to overwhelm the already overcrowded board.

My brother in Gork, the entire point of boyz is to flood the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would give them t4 still, but -1 to wound, base 4+ armor, and revert all the buffs to 8e.

Should you spam Boys, the unit?
Or Boys, in all their varieties?

Also, -1 to-wound as a native ability on a cheap troop is insane.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Should you spam Boys, the unit?
Or Boys, in all their varieties?

Also, -1 to-wound as a native ability on a cheap troop is insane.

Not really. -1 to wound would just make them de-facto T5 but would get a slight boost vs things like S8+ and "always wound on X" weapons. Ironically, if it was faction wide, it would almost make snakebites kulture worth taking. Suddenly S5-7 is wounding on 5s while S3-4 is on 6s. At that point they almost might be playable.

I would spam boyz in all their varieties if their wargear wasn’t overcosted to the extreme. I also can’t take stormboyz in 30 mans anymore so for pure bodies boyz are going to be better. People getting upset at spamming troops are sort of silly to me because they’re the same ones who always seemed to whine about templates.

SemperMortis wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My biggest issue playing against Orks has been how flimsy they feel. Like sure the 5T saves some wounds from even becoming a thing, but just watching everything and anything penetrate their armor is disappointing. 5+ should have been the standard, but I don't think there'd be an issue with 4+ being the go-to for Orks and 3+ on 'ardboyz.

Our Ork player gets by having a transport taking the worst of it, but as soon as that transport is gone... man, do the orks inside evaporate. Feels not very fluffy to me. Especially given they wear whatever scrap they can lash to their bodies... you'd think a blown out vehicle chassis would protect mildly better than a guard flak jacket by virtue of bulk alone.

The issue as many have mentioned is the sheer firepower coming our way these days. T5 on its own does do something...just not nearly as much as everyone thought it would. In a game where the most common troop choice to place at events is Custodes and Troupe's both of which have 4+ invuln saves and usually -1 to hit...that's your benchmark for durability. And don't even forget for a second that those Troupe Players and custodes aren't just running around unsupported, their entire shtick is that you are spending CP on them and giving them loads of re-rolls and special rules to make them useful.

So simply giving boyz a 5+ armor save wouldn't do much, especially in a meta where -1AP is so damn common these days, look at Tau firewarriors for instance, in Montka their basic Firewarrior is S5 -2AP...for 9ppm btw.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

T5 doesn't do nothing, it still makes str 5 wound on a 4 vs these plentiful str 5 guns vs a 3. honestly it is the morale losses that kill orks now, bring back mod rule and/or bosspoles and that gets sorted.

I also think and have always though orks should have a 7+ armor save but a 6+ feel no pain, then your beast snagga snakebites can have a 5+ fnp. bring back the option to buy eavy armor and bake in eavy armor for some elite units so they might actually reach combat or survive on an objective.

No, T5 does almost nothing. Yeah it makes S5 wound on 4s which is great, but there is more S5 in the game now than ever before, S5 is the new S4 for all intents and purposes. The fact that Nidz basic troop is getting S5 as their basic option says a lot. Custards are all S5, their Sagz are running around with Heavy bolters etc.

And sadly a 6+ FNP would be worse for the game because it slows the game down far too much now thanks to all the basic infantry weapons with D2. Think about how you would have to roll dice for saves against multiple wounds from D2+ weapons. Every single one would have to be rolled separately because you would need that many 6s to save the model..it would just needlessly slow the game down. unfortunately with how much AP is floating around in the game these days, its pretty much invuln or nothing, especially for 1 wound models. Again, look at the most common troop choices appearing at the top tables, Harlequins and Custards. all have invulns, -1 to hit and other defensive buffs like Transhuman, no re-rolls etc. I would love for the Dok to have a useful role in our army but simply providing a bubble of 6+ FNP isn't going to cut it.

str 5 wounding on 4's is still a good thing though as its wounding marines on a 3, I am not saying it made ork boyz good, far from it. My green tide list filled foam trays have been collecting dust for quite a while now, I have tried running them multiple times but its just... bad. Playing with the old mob rule to see how it would do helped a lot but they still were not super strong. I hear you on the 6+ feel no pain being a pain with D2 or D3 weapons, but my answer there would be to no allow it for those weapons.

rule:
'ard as nails' when damage from a Damage 1 weapon successfully wounds the unit on a 6+ that wound is ignored. at current points per boy possibly ignore on a 5+. pair with a 7+ armor to avoid tedium of roiling save to save from a 6+

combine that with old mob rule and I think you'd actually see boyz playable

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Should you spam Boys, the unit?
Or Boys, in all their varieties?

Also, -1 to-wound as a native ability on a cheap troop is insane.

Not really. -1 to wound would just make them de-facto T5 but would get a slight boost vs things like S8+ and "always wound on X" weapons. Ironically, if it was faction wide, it would almost make snakebites kulture worth taking. Suddenly S5-7 is wounding on 5s while S3-4 is on 6s. At that point they almost might be playable.

It would make them equal against S4-5 and S8-9.

It would make them better against S1-3, 6-7, and 10+.

That's also not how the interaction works with Transhuman and -1 to-wound.

Honestly just t4, -1 to wound, and a 4+ save would be a perfect defensive profile. (Ork boy armor is pretty scary honestly, whenever orks are written as the junk hoarding hooligans they are.)

That leaves the issue of getting to combat and being worth it inside combat though. I think ap 1 fits choppas and they don’t need too many more attacks per model. I heard the idea of +1 str on charge being universal and I like that, I think they could also use something like the tyranid rules, but have it per base so three tanks of boyz can fight. It benefits hordes but makes trukkers a trade off.
On the subject of trukks, they should be like just much much cheaper if they’re staying exactly like they are, or add mortals on charge, and something like the old 5e careen rule, where if the vehicle is destroyed it flips forward something like 3+d6 inches and the boyz get out.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly just t4, -1 to wound, and a 4+ save would be a perfect defensive profile. (Ork boy armor is pretty scary honestly, whenever orks are written as the junk hoarding hooligans they are.)

That leaves the issue of getting to combat and being worth it inside combat though. I think ap 1 fits choppas and they don’t need too many more attacks per model. I heard the idea of +1 str on charge being universal and I like that, I think they could also use something like the tyranid rules, but have it per base so three tanks of boyz can fight. It benefits hordes but makes trukkers a trade off.
On the subject of trukks, they should be like just much much cheaper if they’re staying exactly like they are, or add mortals on charge, and something like the old 5e careen rule, where if the vehicle is destroyed it flips forward something like 3+d6 inches and the boyz get out.

Just letting boyz be able to disembark from trucks that have already moved without forcing them to be Trukk Boyz might be enough to make them worth it at their current cost. The old careen rule would be fun too.

 JNAProductions wrote:

I would give them t4 still, but -1 to wound, base 4+ armor, and revert all the buffs to 8e.

Should you spam Boys, the unit?
Or Boys, in all their varieties?

Kroot just seem insane compared to a lot of units, tbh.

I don't know whether it's the result of favouritism or no clear design direction or changing philosophies or just incompetence but it's really head-scratching to see the price increases for Ork Boys, Kabalites, Wyches and various other such troops, only to then see Kroot (which seem to be equal to or even better than those) at just 6pts.

Hell, if you want a comparison the other way, guardsman are just 0.5pts per model cheaper than Kroot and they lose BS, S, weapon-strength, attacks, AP in melee etc. I think all they have over the Kroot is 5+ armour instead of 6+ (though Kroot can rectify even that by sitting in cover).

And for the love of God, no one compare Kroot to Grots. You'll only upset yourselves.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's almost like pumping firepower with every new release for the last fifteen years has produced a game that's too lethal to band-aid patch your way out of with one release worth of Toughness buffs.

Basically this.

Indeed, while I can fully understand Ork players wanting their Boyz to be viable, I think the idea of adding FNP or -1 to wound or extra wounds or any suchlike is missing the wood for the trees.

Instead, we should really be looking to change the entire game such that basic infantry don't need to stack defensive bonuses just to be viable. Because that really doesn't seem like a sign of a healthy game system.

 Blackie wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

I would give them t4 still, but -1 to wound, base 4+ armor, and revert all the buffs to 8e.

Should you spam Boys, the unit?
Or Boys, in all their varieties?

Yeah, this. 100 orks of different kids, with "just" 50-60 basic grunts is proper flooding the board. But with much more interesting mechanics and variety in gameplay.

And units shouldn't be good only when you spam them. Boyz shouldn't be good only when you take a hundred of them, they should have a purpose even if you want to take 20, 30, 40, 50, etc... which is why I didn't like them in late 8th, when greentides were competitive (and mostly just goffs) but in any other build boyz were still terrible, so I considered boyz terrible. Ironically I do think they're better now, since at least 10, 20, 30 boyz are good in multiple builds thanks to trukk boyz.

Quick ask-can y'all fix the quotes?

The quote kerfuffle makes it look like I advocated for T4 4+ and -1 to-wound, which is NOT my idea.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:


It’s a horde faction, they’re going to get better the more you take of them, that’s the point. I did also advocate for having less of them be better by proposing better transports. Ork boyz need a benefit for having a lot of them, otherwise you’re going to just take other things that do their job but better. Also, I think that boyz shouldn’t only be good as trukkboyz now, I want to take all 180 that I have.

Exactly, horde FACTION. Which means lots of bodies compared to other armies, not just spamming one thing over and over again.

IMHO boyz don't need a benefit for having a lot of them, and in the last 25 years (at least) only in the 8th codex they actually had a bonus for running large squads, they simply should remain cheaper than specialists (as they already are) and have access to abilities that only troops can do, like a bonus for scoring objectives or even allowing only troops to score objectives or some objective at least. That's a fix that I think all troops need, to give them a purpose other than just being cheap.

That's the real fix boyz (and a lot of other troops) need. A purpose that goes beyond being simply a counter meta shenanigan, aka more bodies than enemy bullets. That and a buff to their durability, mostly a fix to morale issues. Some more punch would be appreciated as well but I don't think it's necessary.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
It’s a horde faction, they’re going to get better the more you take of them, that’s the point. I did also advocate for having less of them be better by proposing better transports. Ork boyz need a benefit for having a lot of them, otherwise you’re going to just take other things that do their job but better. Also, I think that boyz shouldn’t only be good as trukkboyz now, I want to take all 180 that I have.

Tim, you really need to let go of the idea that this is Codex: Boyz rather than Codex: Orks.