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 Lord Damocles wrote:
So the AP system had the entirely predictable same result as in 2nd edition (heavy armour becomes over-valued). But instead of fixing the problem, we get more rules. More bloat. More Marine exceptionalism. More rules which are totally illogical (my armour stops being as good when I carry a shield!)

Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
And here we are once more. There is a reason the All or nothing AP system came to be and stuck around for 5 editions. Thankfully HH 2.0 looks to have found the way to fix the lethality of AP2 and AP3 pie plates. Make them AP4 with breaching and rending.

I love the AP rule change because it hilariously makes lasguns even better relative to the field.

"Oh yeah, your Marines only get 3+ saves against my multi laser"

"But they got 3+ against the heavy bolter, isn't the multilaser worse AP?"

"Not anymore."

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Parody doesnt have to be funny.... Parody can be pushing the ridicule aspect of something. It's not something that makes you laugh out loud, i'ts something that makes you got "this is so dumb, i love it".

If it is not funny then it is not parody. Then it is just a vailed form of an insult you make in a such a way that other people have to take it. Like a dude post match saying "thank you for the match", after he "accidently" dislocated three of your fingers just so a person from his school fighting you in the next round has an easier match.

This gets confused a lot, the dictionary definition of parody is "a work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for comic effect or in ridicule" and the bold part is important. "In ridicule" very specifically doesn't mean funny. The real problem is that parody doesn't have the same connotations everywhere and there isn't a word for doing the same thing when you're not trying to be funny. Satire has the same problem as a word.

If you want a really good example go read Starship Troopers and then watch the movie. The movie is basically the propaganda film that the government in the book would make about itself and it's own history. It never directly insults it's source material and yet still manages to be one of the meanest take-downs of one artist's work by another artist that I've ever seen.

 Krusha wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
Indirect fire - good change, although i would probably go a bit further and ban re-rolls if shooting indirect weapons at something you can't see.

Indirect fire wasn’t a problem outside of hive guard, squig buggies and a couple of tau units, and hive guard have been fixed now anyway.

It was vastly over-represented in lists that could take them.

I like how Repentia wearing a t-shirt and short shorts shrugs off more damage than a Necron made out of living metal.

so wait whats the point of this rule?
Hammer of the Emperor: If every <Regiment> unit
in your army is drawn from the same regiment, then
each time a <Regiment> model from your army makes a
ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically
wounds the target. Note that units listed as Advisors
and Auxilla do not prevent other Astra Militarum units
from your army from gaining this rule, but Advisors and
Auxilla units never benefit from this rule.’


I thought 6s already wounded anything regardless?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I like how Repentia wearing a t-shirt and short shorts shrugs off more damage than a Necron made out of living metal.

Necrons aren't a PC faction, sorry. (/S)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Meanwhile if the leaks are true I can basically add a Knight for free, and kill your entire list on first turn!

lol, you will not be adding a knight for free.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
so wait whats the point of this rule?
Hammer of the Emperor: If every <Regiment> unit
in your army is drawn from the same regiment, then
each time a <Regiment> model from your army makes a
ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically
wounds the target. Note that units listed as Advisors
and Auxilla do not prevent other Astra Militarum units
from your army from gaining this rule, but Advisors and
Auxilla units never benefit from this rule.’


I thought 6s already wounded anything regardless?

It's 6s to hit now, not just 6s to wound.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
so wait whats the point of this rule?
Hammer of the Emperor: If every <Regiment> unit
in your army is drawn from the same regiment, then
each time a <Regiment> model from your army makes a
ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically
wounds the target. Note that units listed as Advisors
and Auxilla do not prevent other Astra Militarum units
from your army from gaining this rule, but Advisors and
Auxilla units never benefit from this rule.’


I thought 6s already wounded anything regardless?

It's 6s to hit now, not just 6s to wound.

So did they just now make amassing low str high shot fire super viable again lol
So some rando is going to be able to automatically wound a knight on a hit roll of 6.
Amazing.

 vipoid wrote:

As for your example, terminators in cover effectively ignore AP-2. Okay. But I fail to see how that makes it less valuable than AP-1, which is outright ignored by the entire faction.

That entirely depends on if those AP2 weapons have as many shots as AP0/1. Concrete examples would help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
The change is a huge Nerf.

I'm not sure I understand how you qualify Sacresants not getting something as a huge nerf.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I really like th update.

Mon't Kai got nerfed. SM got armour update. Detah guard also benefits from it. Much fun. :-)

My rubrics just got bananas tough. +1 for power armor ( assuming the AP is enough to matter ), +1 for D1, +1 for cover, +1 if you're shooting me with ooLOS.

I sort of like this PA change as it punishes high volume high AP more than it will punish low volume shooting.

It isn't just power armour Daed. It's all Heretic Astartes, Loyalist Scum Astartes, and SoB units. At least everything with the appropriate keywords. Tanks, Dreadnoughts, tanks, flyers, tanks, Daemon engines, and, oh yes, tanks. I'm digging this.

Me too.

My TS 4x Terrax-Termites list might just be too OP with Armor of Contempt:
T8, 2+ armour save with 5++ platform all for 180pts.

That's all kinds of broken imo.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I like how Repentia wearing a t-shirt and short shorts shrugs off more damage than a Necron made out of living metal.

Amen

This is so stupid.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love the AP rule change because it hilariously makes lasguns even better relative to the field.

"Oh yeah, your Marines only get 3+ saves against my multi laser"

"But they got 3+ against the heavy bolter, isn't the multilaser worse AP?"

"Not anymore."

But it does only D1. At least you won't feel as bad shooting them at marines.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love the AP rule change because it hilariously makes lasguns even better relative to the field.

"Oh yeah, your Marines only get 3+ saves against my multi laser"

"But they got 3+ against the heavy bolter, isn't the multilaser worse AP?"

"Not anymore."

Haha, yeah.

It's full pants-on-head thinking.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

So did they just now make amassing low str high shot fire super viable again lol
So some rando is going to be able to automatically wound a knight on a hit roll of 6.
Amazing.

Good. People might actually use infantry. Realistically the tanks are still going to fair much better so this who "lasguns kill knights" shtick is old and tired.

Daedelus gonna have his work cut out for him for a while

Good change for Guard but are essentially kid band aids on a stab wound. See you Guard codex in 2023.

Armor of Contept causes weird bands in the value of a Storm Shield. It's now worthless against Ap 1-2 for a normal marine and Ap 2-3 for a Terminator, but better against everything else.

It's fun seeing people try to defend auto-wound 6's for Guard. Or the weird "Your armour is better except when you have a shield and only if you're a Space Marine or a Sister" stuff. Frickin' wild.

This balance dataslate is basically a cry for help. A giant neon flashing sign saying "We don't know what to do... so umm... more rules I guess?". A complete abdication of logic. A abandonment of nuance or common sense.

It's fething glorious. I'm lovin' it!

 Insectum7 wrote:
Daedelus gonna have his work cut out for him for a while

Nah he's got super strong arms. He'll be fine.

 whembly wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I really like th update.

Mon't Kai got nerfed. SM got armour update. Detah guard also benefits from it. Much fun. :-)

My rubrics just got bananas tough. +1 for power armor ( assuming the AP is enough to matter ), +1 for D1, +1 for cover, +1 if you're shooting me with ooLOS.

I sort of like this PA change as it punishes high volume high AP more than it will punish low volume shooting.

It isn't just power armour Daed. It's all Heretic Astartes, Loyalist Scum Astartes, and SoB units. At least everything with the appropriate keywords. Tanks, Dreadnoughts, tanks, flyers, tanks, Daemon engines, and, oh yes, tanks. I'm digging this.

Me too.

My TS 4x Terrax-Termites list might just be too OP with Armor of Contempt:
T8, 2+ armour save with 5++ platform all for 180pts.

That's all kinds of broken imo.

It isn't a 2+. That's what's hilarious about this. AP0 weapons treat it as a 3+. Against those power armor armies, the most efficient AP is now AP0.

AP0 also ignores your invuln as well, and damage 1 weapons ignore DR if you were DG.

In fact, under this Dataslate, 30 Conscripts with FRFSRF (cheaper than the termite even including the officer's full cost) with VFC will kill a termite in a single volley just under half the time.

Did I miss the section where CSM finally got their 2nd wound?

No?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I like how Repentia wearing a t-shirt and short shorts shrugs off more damage than a Necron made out of living metal.

Amen

This is so stupid.

Faith is all powerful in the setting.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I really like th update.

Mon't Kai got nerfed. SM got armour update. Detah guard also benefits from it. Much fun. :-)

My rubrics just got bananas tough. +1 for power armor ( assuming the AP is enough to matter ), +1 for D1, +1 for cover, +1 if you're shooting me with ooLOS.

I sort of like this PA change as it punishes high volume high AP more than it will punish low volume shooting.

It isn't just power armour Daed. It's all Heretic Astartes, Loyalist Scum Astartes, and SoB units. At least everything with the appropriate keywords. Tanks, Dreadnoughts, tanks, flyers, tanks, Daemon engines, and, oh yes, tanks. I'm digging this.

Me too.

My TS 4x Terrax-Termites list might just be too OP with Armor of Contempt:
T8, 2+ armour save with 5++ platform all for 180pts.

That's all kinds of broken imo.

It isn't a 2+. That's what's hilarious about this. AP0 weapons treat it as a 3+. Against those power armor armies, the most efficient AP is now AP0.

AP0 also ignores your invuln as well, and damage 1 weapons ignore DR if you were DG.

In fact, under this Dataslate, 30 Conscripts with FRFSRF (cheaper than the termite even including the officer's full cost) with VFC will kill a termite in a single volley just under half the time.

Yeah, it isn't a direct +1 save in all cases. But, there's not a lot of ap0 in the game right? (except guard, they have tons).

 whembly wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I really like th update.

Mon't Kai got nerfed. SM got armour update. Detah guard also benefits from it. Much fun. :-)

My rubrics just got bananas tough. +1 for power armor ( assuming the AP is enough to matter ), +1 for D1, +1 for cover, +1 if you're shooting me with ooLOS.

I sort of like this PA change as it punishes high volume high AP more than it will punish low volume shooting.

It isn't just power armour Daed. It's all Heretic Astartes, Loyalist Scum Astartes, and SoB units. At least everything with the appropriate keywords. Tanks, Dreadnoughts, tanks, flyers, tanks, Daemon engines, and, oh yes, tanks. I'm digging this.

Me too.

My TS 4x Terrax-Termites list might just be too OP with Armor of Contempt:
T8, 2+ armour save with 5++ platform all for 180pts.

That's all kinds of broken imo.

It isn't a 2+. That's what's hilarious about this. AP0 weapons treat it as a 3+. Against those power armor armies, the most efficient AP is now AP0.

AP0 also ignores your invuln as well, and damage 1 weapons ignore DR if you were DG.

In fact, under this Dataslate, 30 Conscripts with FRFSRF (cheaper than the termite even including the officer's full cost) with VFC will kill a termite in a single volley just under half the time.

Yeah, it isn't a direct +1 save in all cases. But, there's not a lot of ap0 in the game right? (except guard, they have tons).

There will probably be more if GW continues to make it more and more effective relative to the field.

 whembly wrote:

Yeah, it isn't a direct +1 save in all cases. But, there's not a lot of ap0 in the game right? (except guard, they have tons).

besides bolters, the most common basic weapon for the most popular army?

Karol wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I like how Repentia wearing a t-shirt and short shorts shrugs off more damage than a Necron made out of living metal.

Amen

This is so stupid.

Faith is all powerful in the setting.

Unless you're an Inquisitor. Then you have no contempt in your armour...

 vipoid wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Upgrading from AP-1 to AP-2 is still less good than going from AP 0 to AP -1 against a lot of factions, but is very good when against the power armor factions. There are targets against which a -2AP is still useless (terminators in cover for example), which makes the AP-3 have a relevant role.

What on earth are you talking about?

Upgrading from AP0 to AP-1 is now far worse than upgrading from AP-1 to AP-2.

Yes, AP-1 is still relevant against some factions. However, it's now *not* relevant against what is by far the most common faction in the game. Plus CSM (probably the second- or third-most-common faction in the game), and SoB to boot.

The idea that this somehow won't impact the usefulness of AP-1, relative to AP-2, is completely baffling.

As for your example, terminators in cover effectively ignore AP-2. Okay. But I fail to see how that makes it less valuable than AP-1, which is outright ignored by the entire faction.

You need more perspective. In the olden days AP-1 weapons would be the equivalent of AP4 or 5 (depending on the weapon). AP -2 was the equivalent of AP3 or 4. Terminators were not even tickled by weapons that are today regarded as AP -1 or AP-2, while power armored marines ignored pretty much all weapons today regarded as AP-1 and many that are regarded as AP-2. What you see as somehow devaluing the worth of certain weapons is in actuality bringing them closer in line with how they were for most of 7 editions of the game.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Did I miss the section where CSM finally got their 2nd wound?

No?

honestly 12 point marines with -1AP to me looks saucy. I am going to try a csm tide list this weekend. even with just 1 wound that is a lot of power armor for not a lot of points.

list will basically be alpha legion (-1 to hit over 12") at least 100-150 power armored bodies with various heavy/special weapons mixed in

Rolling back the AP handed out like candy would've helped instead of some clunky fix to Marines where somehow your armor is worse when you have a shield...