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Karol, bro... You MUST internalize this:

Just because YOU don't play 25 PL games and your toxic meta won't let you do that doesn't mean it can't be done.

So you really have to stop posting as if 25 PL games don't exist, because they do.

I would argue that despite price increases only Rogue Trader and the edition that included the combat patrol rules in the BRB had a cheaper start up cost, because every other edition of the game was designed almost exclusively for armies of 1K points or more.

I know that 25PL doesn't seem like even a remote possibility to you because the crowd you play with will not let you do it, but you must understand that's not GW's fault and stop writing as if it is.

Having said that, I do agree that even at the 25 PL level, the price is still high, and the fact that many will aspire to 2k does make the situation more dire. But the command edition of the game I think actually gives you everything you need for two people to play.

PenitentJake wrote:
Karol, bro... You MUST internalize this:

Just because YOU don't play 25 PL games and your toxic meta won't let you do that doesn't mean it can't be done.

So you really have to stop posting as if 25 PL games don't exist, because they do.

I would argue that despite price increases only Rogue Trader and the edition that included the combat patrol rules in the BRB had a cheaper start up cost, because every other edition of the game was designed almost exclusively for armies of 1K points or more.

I know that 25PL doesn't seem like even a remote possibility to you because the crowd you play with will not let you do it, but you must understand that's not GW's fault and stop writing as if it is.

Having said that, I do agree that even at the 25 PL level, the price is still high, and the fact that many will aspire to 2k does make the situation more dire. But the command edition of the game I think actually gives you everything you need for two people to play.

I'll add that 25pl requires a little more discourse and understanding between players, but racking up multiple games in one session feels good.

That is absolutely true, which unfortunately is why it's not an option for brother Karol. I wish it was though, I think he'd have a lot of fun with it.

There should be an equivalent of Go Fund Me where you can crowd source good players for other people.

40-kindr.

Guaranteed to find you your best match.

Right I'll go get my coat...

Deadnight wrote:
40-kindr.

Guaranteed to find you your best match.

Right I'll go get my coat...

Get the exalt and there's the Cross button to the top right.

Karol wrote:
If that is the case then w40k is only for two kind of people. The ones that can't stop things once they start doing them and the rich. And no fun or anything else matters.

I would like know, if someone ever went over after being in the hobby for 10 or 20 years, how many people stayed long enough to be 30+ and be chill and have fun, comparing to all those that started w40k in that span of time, got burned and never made it past one edition or even less.

Oh wow, a lot have happened while I was asleep. So just quick two comments:

@Hecaton: at the b&p level of play with friends you only ever get to burn because of some bad balance/rule once. After that you simply know to avoid that situation. After a short while you have your game environment sorted out for perfectly enjoyable evenings. But that requires a skill we all know you lack - social awareness and readiness to accomodate the other player.

@Karol: you really, really have to get out of this hobby, for your own sanity. This game has never worked as you envision it should. Toxicity of polish FLGSs is a known fact since 2nd ed. And you wrote one very true thing, that I don’t think you even understand how fundamental it is - mirror matches of 40k are decided by the initiative roll. The most balanced game of 40k you can think of is down to a coin toss. There is nothing GW can do to solve this, as this is a fundamental property of lethal IGOUGO games and 40k community actively opposes any notion to change this. GW even introduced a system that solves this problem, Apocalypse, and it was rejected by the community for „not having the 40k feel”. The truth is, 40k core rules do not have the capacity to provide you with the experience you desire. No balance dataslate, no new dex or new GT pack will solve that for you. Understand that and internalise that. Sunk-cost falacy will get you nowhere. And after all those years it is perfectly clear, that you don’t have the means to carve the hobby environment you need out the environment you have.

You will have money in the future, you can always get back to the hobby if it’ll ever get better. I rage quit because of 3rd ed was nothing like 2nd ed I loved. I was 20 back then and have invested in couple of expensive hobby projects just weeks before the ed change. Your story is not at all that uncommon, Deadnight had similar, I had similar, Auticus had similar. Sooner or later it will get through to you to get out, so make it sooner rather than later. Your older self will thank your current self for all the time and energy you’ll save by taking a break from 40k.

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

Guess you've never increased the internal HDD size of one of those systems... jailbroke it to run unapproved apps... upgraded an internal component... replaced ANYTHING that happened to fail (even a controller)... customized said controller because the stock one sucked in your opinion. Betcha never even upgraded your screen (or even newer-gen device - a la PS4 and PS4 Slim) to leverage the new features deployed in newer iterations of games.

I mean, the world does exist where person A buys a system and uses that stock experience from cradle-to-grave. But there's still plenty more who find ways to push things beyond that experience and leverage "after market" upgrades and skills to enhance their consumption of that product. Not like Sony or Microsoft police will arrest you for changing your HDD (though they may kick you off of their sanctioned platforms if you jailbreak the system - much akin to using recasts or 3d printed models at a GW event...).

Truth is... when you buy the system, it is yours... and what you do afterwards is of no interest to the producers. They only care that you consume the product and eventually come back for another round later. Locking yourself into that rapid consumption model is their preferred pattern of behavior, but it is not the only one.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

Guess you've never increased the internal HDD size of one of those systems... jailbroke it to run unapproved apps... upgraded an internal component... replaced ANYTHING that happened to fail (even a controller)... customized said controller because the stock one sucked in your opinion. Betcha never even upgraded your screen (or even newer-gen device - a la PS4 and PS4 Slim) to leverage the new features deployed in newer iterations of games.

You avoided the question, likely on purpose.
The XBox and laptop work as intended stock, yes or no?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

Guess you've never increased the internal HDD size of one of those systems... jailbroke it to run unapproved apps... upgraded an internal component... replaced ANYTHING that happened to fail (even a controller)... customized said controller because the stock one sucked in your opinion. Betcha never even upgraded your screen (or even newer-gen device - a la PS4 and PS4 Slim) to leverage the new features deployed in newer iterations of games.

You avoided the question, likely on purpose.
The XBox and laptop work as intended stock, yes or no?

Red ring of death would like to have words with you supposition.

Also: I could not play FFXIV on a stock gaming laptop no matter how hard I tried. It is like I needed to install software to enhance the system to have that capability. Unless of course I requested it be installed from the manufacturer... but uh... that's not a normal experience.

And the Red Ring of Death was widely recognized as a PROBLEM.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And the Red Ring of Death was widely recognized as a PROBLEM.

Question was: does it work as intended upon acquiring the product. I would argue that NOT POWERING UP was not intended. Problem or not, it existed.

You guys can sharpshoot this all you want, but intended usage does figure into why we buy things. I buy a laptop to play FFXIV - I need to modify that laptop out of the box in order to play the game. Installing software is as much an after-market modification as buying a codex.

Sure, I could buy a laptop and play solitaire all day every day, but at the end of the day... it is a tool intended to be more as a framework of what you can do with it... not an end solution. Same with an XBox... you buy an XBox to play additional games... even in its pristine condition it gives you the ability to do stuff, like run disks and install and play games/movies. How far you go down that rabbit hole is a matter of personal preference. I want more HDD space, so I mod my systems to give me that. You want the latest and greatest... so you wait til the next big thing comes out and consume that way.

This whole thing is a matter of personal preference and intention. Just like 40k is...

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

I don't know about Deadknight, but I had to send my XBox in a couple of times due to the Red Ring of Death. Tired of Microsoft's 'fixes' I still had to do some work when the disc tray decided to start scratching my disks. As for my PC, it had to be completely custom-built and loaded with software. While it was much better than splicing patches into programs back in the 90s, my latest PC still required some de-bugging to function and occasional patches/cleaning up to continue to work well.

With 40k, I can absolutely play the game straight off the pages of the rules books. Certainly, it isn't always the best experience that way. But the game functions. It functions much better with some tinkering or taking some aspects (read: playing it Beer and Pretzels style) gently. Sticking to computer theme, I don't think 40k plays well over-clocked and optimized. It just wants to break down all the time under those conditions. Hence, why I never call 'competitive' 40k competitive without the quotation marks. It always sounds like optimized army lists to reduce any challenge when actually playing. Probably fine when both players are doing it. But it's like playing on easy-mode with some cheats on otherwise. Sounds kinda the opposite of competition to me.

So my opponent and I don't try to push it too hard. And it works okay under those conditions. Only great occasionally (and that's likely due to the quality opponents I have access to) but only okay most of the time. Nice graphics, functional game play, but 40k does occasionally drop below 60fpm if to try to do more than it's capable. If you are really hard on it, it'll probably crash. Absolutely could be optimized better and still could use a whole host of patches (we aren't likely to get), but it does functionally play without any modifications. It plays MUCH better with mods or a general acceptance (or resignation if you don't want to be part of the B&P cult).

EviscerationPlague 804474 11350830 wrote:
And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

Considering how rubbish I am with technology (why do you think I like painting toy soldiers?) quite a bit. :p

And as much as I enjoy having my xbox, it can't do everything - I can only expect so much from it.

EviscerationPlague 804474 11350830 wrote:
40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

Absolutely. I have not, and would not state otherwise. Its not ideal. I've played wargames for twenty years now and in fairness I've played plenty other 'better' games in that time that ended up being expensive and just as unbalanced so my view of any table top game is you can only realistically expect so much from them. You'll have to put in some work regardless - I guess I'm just OK with that. I invested my exp in a great gaming group, not upping my skill level in codex breaking. And in my experience I can have a great time playing a mediocre game with great people, I'll have a lousy time playing a great game with mediocre people. That's where I put my effort.

I mean the high buy-in is something that's been there since the 80s. It's an aspect of the entire hobby in general. My pp armies were hardly cheaper for example. I don't mind paying what I pay for what I buy (especially with a 20% discount as I prefer third party where possible) since i dont meta-chase, i like the models i do buy and the games i do play (kill team, lotr, necromunda, warcry) but certainly wouldn't complain if the prices dropped tomorrow. In any case I spend enough time painting per model even if I never game with them, I get my value from what I buy. I mean this is going off topic but aside from some old infinity models on my desk im repainting, gw models and games are where ive drawn most of my enjoyment these last four years. ^shrug^ That said there are ways and means of approaching gw games (and the hobby in general) where the cost can be mitigated though this isn't the thread for that.

Honestly I'm OK with doing the work of game designers because
(A) gw won't. And complaining on thr Internet for the last fifteen years hasn't brought about thr changes I want, so if I want to see them I gotta do the leg work.
(B) I find it intellectually interesting. Game-building itself and scenario design is something we enjoy.
(C) we can tweak a game in a manner to make it more suitable for our needs and desires.


I have sympathy for the designers though. Working for 'the man' in corporate has its frustrations. They're not the movers and shakers in the company and have a lot less real 'power' than folks here seem to think.. gw is not interested in making a 'good' game, though sone designers do turn it out. That said, I often find enough of a game is a 'good enough' baseline thst we can use that as a jumping off point and go from there.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

Guess you've never increased the internal HDD size of one of those systems... jailbroke it to run unapproved apps... upgraded an internal component... replaced ANYTHING that happened to fail (even a controller)... customized said controller because the stock one sucked in your opinion. Betcha never even upgraded your screen (or even newer-gen device - a la PS4 and PS4 Slim) to leverage the new features deployed in newer iterations of games.

You avoided the question, likely on purpose.
The XBox and laptop work as intended stock, yes or no?

Red ring of death would like to have words with you supposition.

Also: I could not play FFXIV on a stock gaming laptop no matter how hard I tried. It is like I needed to install software to enhance the system to have that capability. Unless of course I requested it be installed from the manufacturer... but uh... that's not a normal experience.

And when you got the red ring of death did Microsoft tell you to forge the narrative?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Karol wrote:

Beer and pretzel game don't have a initial buy in to the game at around a 1000$ for the avarge sized army. Now kill team that is a B&P game. Warcry too. But not w40k or AoS, and from stories I have been told neither was WFB.

Beer and pretzels is about attitude, not wallet size. When it comes to 'initial buy in' I spent more on my xbox or my gaming laptop. 40k can absolutely be beer and pretzels and it doesnt need crazy investment to get started either.

And how much modifying did you HAVE to actually do to make your XBox and Laptop work?

40k has high buy-in AND you have to do the work of the "game designers" they hired.

Guess you've never increased the internal HDD size of one of those systems... jailbroke it to run unapproved apps... upgraded an internal component... replaced ANYTHING that happened to fail (even a controller)... customized said controller because the stock one sucked in your opinion. Betcha never even upgraded your screen (or even newer-gen device - a la PS4 and PS4 Slim) to leverage the new features deployed in newer iterations of games.

You avoided the question, likely on purpose.
The XBox and laptop work as intended stock, yes or no?

Red ring of death would like to have words with you supposition.

Also: I could not play FFXIV on a stock gaming laptop no matter how hard I tried. It is like I needed to install software to enhance the system to have that capability. Unless of course I requested it be installed from the manufacturer... but uh... that's not a normal experience.

And when you got the red ring of death did Microsoft tell you to forge the narrative?

At what point did your rulebook or minis become utterly inoperable and incapable of serving their intended function?

What stock PC or Xbox comes with the exact games included, what game doesn't get stability or content patches, what games these days don't come with DLC. The two are reaaalll close and I think you're pushing at something that actually hinders your argument.

Holy feth, people

Yes, the game is fethed and its 100% GW's fault

Yes, its possible to houserule stuff to make the game more enjoyable within a playgroup

No, doing so isn't shilling for GW or excusing their poor rules making.

Stop attacking people that don't just let their enjoyment be lowered and modify the rules to have more fun with their game

EviscerationPlague wrote:

And when you got the red ring of death did Microsoft tell you to forge the narrative?

I figured why buy an XBox to begin with when the Playstation was a perfectly viable alternative.

When the problem subsided or a new gen came out... I asked myself the same investment question: How do I feel about this now? Kind of how Warhammer transitions edition to edition.

I do remember plenty of household remedies offered up for fixing the red ring while avoiding Microsoft's very agonizing customer support experience. Everyone had "a solution that fixed the problem!"

Try a few, get exhausted, break down and return the console. Some people found it engaging a fun to drill down into the "hows" and "whys" these things happened, and finding remedies. Some people didn't think they needed to and were entitled to a working product out of the box. Attitudes are the same here, and neither is right or wrong. But demonizing either side for not doing what you would do... probably not the right answer. I just implore keeping an open mind and ask for other people's solutions as opposed to mischaracterizing a genuine "oops" in product release. Like wasn't ITC a patch for how horrible 8th Eternal War/Matched Play missions were? Didn't see anyone complaining then, saw a lot of people cheering it on as a way "to fix the problem left in the game by the developers". It was widely adopted and the community got on... sure there were GW purists then, too, but no one was trying to take their toys away.

Removing the consumer as a potential fix for the problem just leads to stagnation... so much product innovations stem from users using a product in an innovative way (ask AWS). Sometimes little patches being shared, like ITC, make HUGE downstream changes later on. But shutting those people out as if they're out of touch or shouldn't be doing it to begin with just empowers the developers to keep delivering the same thing over and over. It is, after all, what you wanted, right?

But what is asked from people are not small fixs. Small fixes is something like, it is 8th ed and we agree that trees will block LoS based on outline of base the whole forest section stands on instead of the outline of each separate tree aka making forests worthless for playing. Stuff like we want you to not use unit X and Y, if you play player A, you can use the X vs player B and vs player C you can use X and Y, but only if he brings this set up, because if the brings the other one then Y is out of the question and you have to ask if X can be used. Which more or less boils down to , we want you to buy not an army but a multi thousand points, and more important dollars, collection and then fix the game for us. Ah and remember to paint those few thousand points of models.

You don’t have to paint the models, unless your tournament or gaming space requires it.

yeah you don't, your just -10VP if your opponent has a painted army. Which by the way gives a huge edge to anyone who already plays for longer then their opponent. why not play to lose right? And before someone says, spending quality time with friends is important. There are a ton of things that do not require you to buy a 1000$ army, paint it, pay for the rule books and hope that the rules+interaction with othe people, make the game worth it. Ah and that comes with another assumption, that you actually have friends that play. Because if everyone your age quit, then becoming friend as a 13-16y old with 30+ guys, maybe a tad hard to pull off.

Karol wrote:
yeah you don't, your just -10VP if your opponent has a painted army. Which by the way gives a huge edge to anyone who already plays for longer then their opponent. why not play to lose right? And before someone says, spending quality time with friends is important. There are a ton of things that do not require you to buy a 1000$ army, paint it, pay for the rule books and hope that the rules+interaction with othe people, make the game worth it. Ah and that comes with another assumption, that you actually have friends that play. Because if everyone your age quit, then becoming friend as a 13-16y old with 30+ guys, maybe a tad hard to pull off.

feth anyone actually using that rule at LGSs, and feth GW for even adding it.

Sure, painted minis look nicer than unpainted ones but the hobby side should have zero impact on the game skill side of 40k.


and even then, lets say the final score of the game is 70-61 in your favor and then your opponent goes "well actually, i win because you're not fully painted", do you actually count it as a loss when it comes to determining the power of your army or your skill as a player?

Karol wrote:
yeah you don't, your just -10VP if your opponent has a painted army. Which by the way gives a huge edge to anyone who already plays for longer then their opponent. why not play to lose right? And before someone says, spending quality time with friends is important. There are a ton of things that do not require you to buy a 1000$ army, paint it, pay for the rule books and hope that the rules+interaction with othe people, make the game worth it. Ah and that comes with another assumption, that you actually have friends that play. Because if everyone your age quit, then becoming friend as a 13-16y old with 30+ guys, maybe a tad hard to pull off.

I started as a 14 y.o. guy in a youth community lead by people in their thirties. But back then they nurtured a laid back wargaming community, not cutthroat competitive environment. You want to blame someone for the current state of affairs in your neighbourhood? Blame players who can't switch off for even a single game. The thing is - GW is not forcing anybody to try to break the game, but many competitive players see every rule there is as an invitation to bend it or break it. Just read the thread about abusing subfaction keyword system - that thread really is showing how some people do not understand that this is a game, played for mutual fun. Not a law school.

Seriously, you desperately need to take a break from this hobby. Now.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
yeah you don't, your just -10VP if your opponent has a painted army. Which by the way gives a huge edge to anyone who already plays for longer then their opponent. why not play to lose right? And before someone says, spending quality time with friends is important. There are a ton of things that do not require you to buy a 1000$ army, paint it, pay for the rule books and hope that the rules+interaction with othe people, make the game worth it. Ah and that comes with another assumption, that you actually have friends that play. Because if everyone your age quit, then becoming friend as a 13-16y old with 30+ guys, maybe a tad hard to pull off.

feth anyone actually using that rule at LGSs, and feth GW for even adding it.

Sure, painted minis look nicer than unpainted ones but the hobby side should have zero impact on the game skill side of 40k.


and even then, lets say the final score of the game is 70-61 in your favor and then your opponent goes "well actually, i win because you're not fully painted", do you actually count it as a loss when it comes to determining the power of your army or your skill as a player?

Yeah, I don't know who the hell that rule is supposed to make happy.

I've seen people on these forums say that you're That Guy if you don't follow that rule. It's absolutely the minority, but I'd be annoyed if someone pulled that on me. Luckily, it's a rule that only exists to encourage painting, and no one would really use it outside of, maybe, tournaments.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You don’t have to paint the models, unless your tournament or gaming space requires it.

Sure. 10 vp handicap is bit of a hurdle though

I'm glad they added it. A lot of smaller tournaments dropped painting requirements when that rule was added. Now noobs can play before spending 6 months painting, but still have an incentive to get their army painted.

Toofast wrote:
I'm glad they added it. A lot of smaller tournaments dropped painting requirements when that rule was added. Now noobs can play before spending 6 months painting, but still have an incentive to get their army painted.

a better incentive :

-have a prize for best general
-have a prize for best painter

Most tournaments already do that. Those aren't things GW controls.

tneva82 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You don’t have to paint the models, unless your tournament or gaming space requires it.

Sure. 10 vp handicap is bit of a hurdle though

Who actually uses that rule, outside of tournaments?
And many tournaments, correct me if I'm wrong, still have painting minimums anyway.