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A few ponderings:

Was Horus made warmaster, over the Lion, because of the Ullanor crusade and if the lion and the DA had been there instead of the Luna Wolves would he have won the title?

And if the Lion were the warmaster would he have been the target of Choas to lead the heresy? Would they have evens been able to turn him against the emperor? It seems to me that the lion was a bit more simple minded and just wanted to prove to the emperor that he was the best warrior and leader. But the. I suppose what better way to prove your are better than beating them in in combat.
   
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I think anyone who was Warmaster would’ve been targeted by Chaos.

Horus was kind of forcibly converted, rather than the usual seduction route. His standing among his Brothers then helped the Heresy spread further.

Did the Lion have that level of relationship with his Brothers? I genuinely don’t know. But if not, there’s a strong case the Heresy might’ve been smaller in scale, as fewer Primarchs might’ve been recruited.

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mrFickle wrote:
A few ponderings:

Was Horus made warmaster, over the Lion, because of the Ullanor crusade and if the lion and the DA had been there instead of the Luna Wolves would he have won the title?

And if the Lion were the warmaster would he have been the target of Choas to lead the heresy? Would they have evens been able to turn him against the emperor? It seems to me that the lion was a bit more simple minded and just wanted to prove to the emperor that he was the best warrior and leader. But the. I suppose what better way to prove your are better than beating them in in combat.


Horus was the first found (not counting Alpharius) by some time and had the best relationship with the Emperor. He’s also a lot more charismatic and popular than the Lion who’s respected but not really liked by anyone.

Horus was therefore the obvious choice for Warmaster regardless.

As MDC says though, if the Lion was Warmaster though the heresy would probably have still happened, but probably smaller in scope as he’d be less able to get people on side (something he struggles with even amongst his own legion!)
   
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The authors have made it clear that no matter who was chosen for Warmaster, whether it be Horus, the Lion, Guilliman, Dorn, or Ferrus, they would've fallen to Chaos eventually. The position of Warmaster in the Great Crusade was too heavily targeted by Chaos, even if the form of attack may have changed depending on who held the title.
   
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Perhaps we’re over thinking this.

Whomever holds the mantle is targeted specifically, and corrupted as Horus was.

They turn. Really, all they’d then need to do is somehow get Horus on side. Perhaps repeating the same trick. From there, Horus continues to get the same folk (possibly more if it was a combined charm offensive).

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The Heresy wouldn't be nearly as "effective" with anyone but Horus as Warmaster, not unless everything that came before was also changed drastically.
Horus was perfect because he wasn't just a weapon in the same way the Lion was. The Lion single minded in his strategic genius and wasn't anywhere near the diplomat Horus was, which is what was needed to lead the Crusade. Horus was able to soothe the bruised egos of his brothers after his ascension and even before that was well liked by most and respected by all.
   
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Hence why I think my previous post is something we really need to consider.

Just because Horus wouldn’t be The First, it doesn’t mean he couldn’t/wouldn’t have been recruited one way or the other.

Of course, now I think about it, Horus was The Second, with that milksop speccy bookworm Lorgar being The First.

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I feel like there was only every three options for Warmaster: Horus, Guilliman, or Sanguinius.

The Lion wasn't presented particularly well in the books, so I never got the impression he was in "the running" for Warmaster.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Horus was the first found (not counting Alpharius) by some time ...

Wait, what?
   
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The point being though, that Horus was able to sway his brothers to his side because he had the skills to do so, the charisma, the manipulation, the knowledge of their deepest secrets. His brothers trusted him and that's why so many fell because they genuinely believed he was the one to right the wrongs done to them by their father and siblings. Horus was the mirror of the Emperor because he could play his brothers off against each other just as well as his father did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Boringstuff wrote:
I feel like there was only every three options for Warmaster: Horus, Guilliman, or Sanguinius.

The Lion wasn't presented particularly well in the books, so I never got the impression he was in "the running" for Warmaster.

The Lion was a strategic genius and was perhaps the most analytical of all the Primarchs besides Perturabo. He was an exceptional battlefield and campaign leader but he was secretive and mistrusting, whereas Horus was charismatic and was liked by all his brothers, even Kurze who was nutz.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/11 14:14:38


 
   
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 Boringstuff wrote:
I feel like there was only every three options for Warmaster: Horus, Guilliman, or Sanguinius.

The Lion wasn't presented particularly well in the books, so I never got the impression he was in "the running" for Warmaster.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Horus was the first found (not counting Alpharius) by some time ...

Wait, what?


If I’m right in thinking, it’s long been established Horus may have never been abducted, and so was raised on Terra by The Emperor.

There’s a later canonical novel which claims Alpharius was also there. But given Alpha Legions are filthy naughty fib tellers, who genuinely knows?

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No, Horus was definitely taken to Cthonia but the planet was just really close to Terra.
https://warhammerart.com/shop/the-horus-heresy/loyalist/horus-heresy-map/
This one can zoom in and you can see how close they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/11 14:18:27


 
   
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Ahh, I’m probably just confusing Horus being found early, and Alpharius allegedly being on Terra the whole time.

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Horus was on Cthonia, but he wasn't called Horus and he wasn't the beefy monster most people know primarchs to be, at least not until relatively late.

I think an angle that's being missed is chaos corruption followed by civil war need not take the same form as the Horus Heresy. Chaos corruption would likely play to the particular primarch's strengths. If Ferrus Manus were Warmaster and then fell to Chaos, who's to say that instead of swaying brothers to his side the way Horus did, he'd fling open the Keys to Hel and unleash an army of undead chaos androids, using chaos-equivalent mind shackling to force primarchs to his side?
   
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jareddm wrote:
Horus was on Cthonia, but he wasn't called Horus and he wasn't the beefy monster most people know primarchs to be, at least not until relatively late.

I think an angle that's being missed is chaos corruption followed by civil war need not take the same form as the Horus Heresy. Chaos corruption would likely play to the particular primarch's strengths. If Ferrus Manus were Warmaster and then fell to Chaos, who's to say that instead of swaying brothers to his side the way Horus did, he'd fling open the Keys to Hel and unleash an army of undead chaos androids, using chaos-equivalent mind shackling to force primarchs to his side?


That’s a bloody good thought, for sure.

I guess we need to consider who was the driving force. Lorgar and Chums targeted Horus for a reason. And one could argue his appointment as Warmaster didn’t necessarily factor in. Rather, they selected Horus for pretty much the same reasons The Emperor chose Horus for Warmaster. Everything that made Horus the ideal for Chaos Champion of Champions is what made him an ideal Warmaster.

Charm, charisma, level headed, popular etc. As such he represented the Best Chance Of Success for both parties here. The powers and forces of Chaos needed someone who could turn the maximum number of other Imperial Forces. Powerful as the Legions were, just turning say, the Ultramarines to pick the most numerous, would never have been enough, because they’re going up against everything else in the Imperial War Machine. All of it. Titan Legions, Adeptus Mechanicus, Knights, Imperial Army, Legionnes Astartes and their Primarchs, The Emperor and all his little specialist military wings.

Which (I’m genuinely sorry to be beating my own trumpet, but it’s genuinely a thought I’ve not had until this thread!), Horus would likely have always been The Crown Jewel, regardless of who actually became Warmaster and was turned in…erm…turn. Because without Horus? A lot of that falls by the wayside.

Remember. Istvaan, were it not for the hidden traitors deploying alongside unsuspecting Loyalists could well have strangled Horus’ rebellion in its crib. Wiped them out? No, not necessarily. But war is a matter of numbers and attrition. Both sides would’ve taken immense losses, but The Imperium would’ve had a greater capacity to replace those losses whilst also maintaining pressure on Horus’ remaining forces, at a point where every life, round, gun, tank, ship etc would’ve been a further cut. Far from “Over By Christmas”, but it would’ve been a set back I don’t think Horus could reasonably have recovered from. Hence ensuring the unsuspected turncoats were deployed against him, where the Butcher’s Tally was flipped, with the Loyalist Legions caught in the trap being greatly reduced, and not taking that much of a role in what came to follow, by comparison.

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 Boringstuff wrote:
I feel like there was only every three options for Warmaster: Horus, Guilliman, or Sanguinius.

The Lion wasn't presented particularly well in the books, so I never got the impression he was in "the running" for Warmaster.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Horus was the first found (not counting Alpharius) by some time ...

Wait, what?


I read something recently where RG tells the lion that Horus didn’t care about being chosen over the other primarchs for warmaster, he only cared about being chosen over the lion. Which started my what if….
   
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mrFickle wrote:
 Boringstuff wrote:
I feel like there was only every three options for Warmaster: Horus, Guilliman, or Sanguinius.

The Lion wasn't presented particularly well in the books, so I never got the impression he was in "the running" for Warmaster.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Horus was the first found (not counting Alpharius) by some time ...

Wait, what?


I read something recently where RG tells the lion that Horus didn’t care about being chosen over the other primarchs for warmaster, he only cared about being chosen over the lion. Which started my what if….


Fair.

Tbh I may just be biased against the Lion as I didn't think the DA HH books were good.
   
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The Lion would not have fallen even if he were warmaster, as he said himself he has been tempted every single day by chaos and they offer him nothing, more than any other primarch the lion is loyal to the Emperor.

As the Emperor said to the Lion, some of his sons needs laurels and accolades, praise and to be seen winning, the Lion does not
   
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I actually think Horus would have been targeted, Warmaster or not. The only other real charismatic champion of the fellow primary's was Sanguinius so perhaps he could have aided the chaos gods by bringing more primarchs to the chaos side if he was warmaster.

Charisma and the ability to coerce powerful allies to their side is a more prominent requirement for the heresy than just the title of warmaster.

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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I actually think Horus would have been targeted, Warmaster or not. The only other real charismatic champion of the fellow primary's was Sanguinius so perhaps he could have aided the chaos gods by bringing more primarchs to the chaos side if he was warmaster.

Charisma and the ability to coerce powerful allies to their side is a more prominent requirement for the heresy than just the title of warmaster.


But the position of warmaster allowed Horus to send the dark angels, blood angels and space wolves (I think) off to the far reaches of the galaxy out of the way for the istvaan attacks. If Horus was always the target he would have needed a very different strategy
   
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The architect of the Heresy would have needed to have been Warmaster so as to have the ability to systematically weaken his eventual enemies while strengthening his own forces without tipping anyone off to his plans. The muster at Calth, the unleashing of the Wolves, and the sacrifice of the Blood Angels were all initially believed to be for legitimate reasons. Calth was seen as an attempt to make peace between the Word Bearers and Ultramarines, Russ and Valdor wanted blood so Horus gave it to them and Sanguinius trusted Horus completely. Nobody had any reason to suspect Horus's treachery until it was already too late to stop it.
The charisma factor is equally important, especially in the later stages when you have Primarchs adopting their Daemon forms., becoming essentially uncontrollable without a strong guiding hand. Horus was the only thing holding the Traitor forces together at Terra and even then he lost Lorgar to treachery, Alpharius/Omegon for some reason, and most importantly Perturabo by hubris and becoming exactly like the Emperor. He had the loyalty of the Daemon Primarchs because the Gods commanded it be so and the only one he held any real power over was Mortarion who was loyal to a fault.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/13 21:57:01


 
   
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The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?

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 ph34r wrote:
The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?


The Fallen would like a word. XD
   
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 Boringstuff wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?


The Fallen would like a word. XD


Isn’t it still a bit dubious as the wether or not they turned to chaos. Luther was for sure but did he even know that’s what was happening. Some fallen are definitely not chaos marines as per the game rules and Cyphers current story progression. However I’m sure many of them turned to chaos after the scattering of them.
   
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Lord Zarkov wrote:
As MDC says though, if the Lion was Warmaster though the heresy would probably have still happened, but probably smaller in scope as he’d be less able to get people on side (something he struggles with even amongst his own legion!)

More like bigger in scope because Lion would probably stayed loyal but also royally piss off all his brothers and unite traitors against him, not under him. As you said, he didn't even have loyalty of the dudes genetically programmed to obey him, good 2/3 of other primarchs would show him middle finger after a few months of him being in charge.

The only good candidates for warmaster were Rob (best leader), Sangy (most charismatic) and Horus (blend of both even if not as good at either), with honorable mention going to Ferrus in fourth place. No one else was even remotely qualified for the post.

Funnily enough Lion might be good warmaster in 40K as he wouldn't have equals, just inferiors to command as he pleases and his holy status would paper over his lack of social skills. Rob even mused he would gladly give him the title so he could focus on fixing the fundamentals of the Imperium, not had to rush from one warzone to another.
   
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 ph34r wrote:
The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?


Given how Horus was turned, I think we can argue any of his Brothers, subjected to the same schtick, could’ve been turned.

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Horus was overly prideful but also filled with a sense of inadequacy and doubt. Erebus was able to get Horus down the first steps of betrayal by feeding his ego while also hammering down on Horus's insecurities about being chosen as the Emperor's proxy. The Lion could get mad (as seen with the Night Lords and Thramas) but wasn't as prideful or doubting as Horus was. He didn't have an ego to play to (like Fulgrim or Lorgar) and didn't have insecurities to exploit (like Mortarion and Perturabo).
   
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mrFickle wrote:
 Boringstuff wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?


The Fallen would like a word. XD


Isn’t it still a bit dubious as the wether or not they turned to chaos. Luther was for sure but did he even know that’s what was happening. Some fallen are definitely not chaos marines as per the game rules and Cyphers current story progression. However I’m sure many of them turned to chaos after the scattering of them.


The HH books really aren't clear, but IIRC they seemed to show Cypher being Zahariel (spelling?) who was definitely chaos-aligned, and that Luther was then corrupted by him??

Also, am not sure how Ferrus comes into the equation for Warmaster? Again, like the Lion, the books don't seem to indicate him being a major consideration?
   
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 Irbis wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:
As MDC says though, if the Lion was Warmaster though the heresy would probably have still happened, but probably smaller in scope as he’d be less able to get people on side (something he struggles with even amongst his own legion!)

More like bigger in scope because Lion would probably stayed loyal but also royally piss off all his brothers and unite traitors against him, not under him. As you said, he didn't even have loyalty of the dudes genetically programmed to obey him, good 2/3 of other primarchs would show him middle finger after a few months of him being in charge.

The only good candidates for warmaster were Rob (best leader), Sangy (most charismatic) and Horus (blend of both even if not as good at either), with honorable mention going to Ferrus in fourth place. No one else was even remotely qualified for the post.

Funnily enough Lion might be good warmaster in 40K as he wouldn't have equals, just inferiors to command as he pleases and his holy status would paper over his lack of social skills. Rob even mused he would gladly give him the title so he could focus on fixing the fundamentals of the Imperium, not had to rush from one warzone to another.


A continued successful campaign would have kept the other primarchs on side even if they didn’t like him, a number of the primarchs despised the fact that Horus was made warmaster but that didn’t really matter until Horus had to work out who could be turned into a heretic.
   
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 Boringstuff wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Boringstuff wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?


The Fallen would like a word. XD


Isn’t it still a bit dubious as the wether or not they turned to chaos. Luther was for sure but did he even know that’s what was happening. Some fallen are definitely not chaos marines as per the game rules and Cyphers current story progression. However I’m sure many of them turned to chaos after the scattering of them.


The HH books really aren't clear, but IIRC they seemed to show Cypher being Zahariel (spelling?) who was definitely chaos-aligned, and that Luther was then corrupted by him??

Also, am not sure how Ferrus comes into the equation for Warmaster? Again, like the Lion, the books don't seem to indicate him being a major consideration?


I want to say it's from Vulkan's internal perspective in... Born of Flame?
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
The Lion's "special thing" was kind of being super-duper-extra-anti-chaos, I would expect that would make him not a vulnerable target for chaos?


Given how Horus was turned, I think we can argue any of his Brothers, subjected to the same schtick, could’ve been turned.


IDK if I'd agree with that. If all the events are considered the same and we are just transposing the Primarch, in nearly every situation it comes down to a single choice. While dying to the Anatheme blade, do they join Chaos and save themselves, or do they heed Magnus' warning and die for there father's cause?

Categorically, there were two that had already turned, so we can rule them out:
Lorgar and Fulgrim

There are others that didn't really give a gak about the Emperor and/or seriously distrusted Magnus, so we can rule them out as also falling:
Angron, Purturabo, Curze, Mortarion.

Not counting Horus, that still leaves 11 Primarchs that I think are legitimately up for debate as to if they would fall or not under the same conditions. So IMHO, this is what I think:
The Lion: Likely to Fall. If Chaos can convince him that the Emperor has been lying to him this entire time, (which wasn't too hard for them to do with Horus) I think he'd turn traitor.
Jaghatai Khan: 50/50. He's all about freedom, so if Chaos can play the angle of the Emporer being this oppressive force that will stifle mankind (not that hard to do) they could get to him. That being said, he knows more than most about the Warp than most Primarchs and has a good relationship with Magnus, so perhaps he would remain loyal.
Leman Russ: Likely to Fall. I'm not sure how much Russ actually knows about the Warp, but if anything Magnus' warning would have been more a hinderance than a help. While Russ is doggedly loyal, I don't think it would have been that hard for Chaos to trick him into turning traitor until it was too late for him to turn back. He's never been the sharpest chainsword of the bunch.
Rogal Dorn: Unlikely to Fall: To be fair, I don't know all that much about Rogal Dorn, except that his is stalwart and uncompromising. I can easily see him choosing to die rather than betray the Imperium. Possibly, but I think he would have taken one for the team.
Sanguinius: 50/50. For Sanguinius, I think it really comes down to if he cares more about his people or his duty. We know that he's hiding the Red Thirst to protect his legion, just how far would he go if Chaos offered him a cure, or he believed the Emporer would purge them? He was also fairly close with Magnus, so the warning would have carried some serious weight.
Ferrus Manus: Likely to Fall: We really know comparatively little about Ferrus Manus since he dies so early on in the story so it's hard to say for certain, but I think that Chaos could have played themselves up as the next evolution of Mankind, a fight like no other to test their strength and make them all greater than they were. It would have had significant pull with the Gorgon. He did only join the Emperor because he could match Ferrus in combat after all.
Roboute Guilliman: Unlikely to Fall. Say what you will about Guilliman, but from everything he has done and the reasons he has done them, I think it's pretty unlikly that Chaos could get to him unless they could convince him that in the end it would all be for nothing and the Emperor would somehow bring it all to ruin.
Magnus: Complicated. If Chaos could convince Magnus of the Emperor's eventual plan for him, I think he would have turned, but not to Chaos, despite his fall in Cannon, had the Wolves not put his world to the torch, I think he was too knowledgeable of Chaos to be swayed. I think realizing that he could take neither side, he would have bent his knowledge and that of his people to find a way to escape the Galaxy with as many followers as possible.
Vulkan: Unlikely to Fall. If there's one Legion that gives a gak about it's people more that the Ultramarines, it's the Salamanders. I just don't really see Chaos having much to offer Vulcan. He can't even die since he's a perpetual (though he wouldn't have known that at the time.)
Corvus Corax: Likely to Fall. I think all Chaos would have to do would be frame the Emperor like Corax's old oppressors and them like the liberators and they could get to him fairly easily.
Alpharius / Omegon: 50/50. Yeah, they are convinced to fall in cannon, but even this there's a lot of infighting that follows and in that situation it's only because it's too late for them to do anything about it. If Alpharius or Omegon were the catalyst instead of an outsider, I think they would lay down and die for the Imperium, especially knowing that their twin would still be around to carry the torch. Also if one did fall, it's possible the Legion would just tear itself apart instead as the other would still be loyal and unlikely to be convinced otherwise.

That's my take on it all at least.


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