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ClockworkZion wrote: Speaking of 5th ed GK I used to table Draigowing with Sisters. Turns out GK don't like Instant Death from massed meltas.
Draigowing was T5.
Paladins are T4 with 2W in 5th and had a FnP via Apothecary.
Only Draigo himself had T5 and was immune to Instant Death via Eternal Warrior.
The gimmick of the list had to do with wound allocation by having different wargwar on every model and making it hard to wound models normally. S8 bypassed that on the Paladins themselves as it denied them a FnP and they instant died if they failed their invul save.
ClockworkZion wrote: Speaking of 5th ed GK I used to table Draigowing with Sisters. Turns out GK don't like Instant Death from massed meltas.
Draigowing was T5.
Paladins are T4 with 2W in 5th and had a FnP via Apothecary.
Only Draigo himself had T5 and was immune to Instant Death via Eternal Warrior.
The gimmick of the list had to do with wound allocation by having different wargwar on every model and making it hard to wound models normally. S8 bypassed that on the Paladins themselves as it denied them a FnP and they instant died if they failed their invul save.
Sisters always used to have weird super favourable matchups against certain meta lists just because we were the only army that ran any meaningful amount of melta. And that meaningful amount was 'all of it'.
Sisters actually had a better shot at killing a CABAL STAR than the gladius strike force did just because of the T4 instant death interaction + Grav only wounding on 6s. If, for even one turn, your opponent failed invis and didn't bump his invul up higher than 4, you could have absolutely killed his whole star with Sisters melta fire.
I mean...if he failed first turn. By turn two you'd usually be tabled so...
I do remember 5th edition GKs being a very nasty matchup for tyranids.
Unless the nid player tailored heavily, he'd struggle to outshoot the GKs.
However, in melee, the GKs could strike at the same speed as Genestealers (thanks to halberds), and their force weapons made quick work of monstrous creatures. In fact, given that Daemons all had invulnerable saves and eternal warrior, whilst Tyranids rarely had either of those things, one could argue that GKs seemed far better suited to killing Tyranids than they did Daemons.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
ClockworkZion wrote: Speaking of 5th ed GK I used to table Draigowing with Sisters. Turns out GK don't like Instant Death from massed meltas.
Draigowing was T5.
Paladins are T4 with 2W in 5th and had a FnP via Apothecary.
Only Draigo himself had T5 and was immune to Instant Death via Eternal Warrior.
The gimmick of the list had to do with wound allocation by having different wargwar on every model and making it hard to wound models normally. S8 bypassed that on the Paladins themselves as it denied them a FnP and they instant died if they failed their invul save.
Sisters always used to have weird super favourable matchups against certain meta lists just because we were the only army that ran any meaningful amount of melta. And that meaningful amount was 'all of it'.
Sisters actually had a better shot at killing a CABAL STAR than the gladius strike force did just because of the T4 instant death interaction + Grav only wounding on 6s. If, for even one turn, your opponent failed invis and didn't bump his invul up higher than 4, you could have absolutely killed his whole star with Sisters melta fire.
I mean...if he failed first turn. By turn two you'd usually be tabled so...
Yeah, where I struggled was usually into hordes because I didn't play Immo spam for the extra heavy flamer templates.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/22 21:21:20
2022/04/23 07:21:55
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
Yeah, where I struggled was usually into hordes because I didn't play Immo spam for the extra heavy flamer templates.
I was never a fan of the immo, i was quite happy with the FW repressor. it had a pintle heavy flamer (and storm bolter) and the sisters inside could pop the top for another along with the 6 fire points for bolters. not bad for a transport that doesn't take up a heavy slot.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone call it? We have zero clue where GW is going now. IG squads are basically the same cost no matter what you put into them, Custodes are getting a "once per game" special rule that only effects specific units anyhow, Harlequins are barely touched, but Tau are nerfed, in that a SMS now has less accuracy than a HWT Mortar, a Tactical Marine is now somehow More durable than a Terminator, and DE are basically untouched.
We're already seeing people calling it quits in the Tactica threads over this "balance" patch. You can't balance your way out of 9th now. Just cut the life support and call the remaining codexes the start of 10th.
Only problem now is you can't artificially delay their release "due to COVID" or "Brexit" since the world has had 3 years to get that under control. Well except for the British, but they think Boris Johnson is still a capable leader of a nation, so I guess they can get a pass. They did it to themselves.
Oh wait, we now have WW3 for them to say is hurting shipping.
You know what? Just screw this all. Screw 10th. A new paid CA is coming out in two months anyway, where I'm sure everything will be fixed, and Trajann will now cost 110 points, but Voidreavers will cost 165 points per model. Because this game is a dead horse, that keeps popping it's pustules and farting out corpse gas in the form of "balance updates", and we keep paying to give it another kick.
I'm not sure if Guard is just in that spot, because the rules aren't enough or because people with enough experience haven't decided to champion them. Either way HoE hasn't blown the scene up yet. Custodes aren't dead. Harlies took a pretty big hit.
I guess the one thing that is right is DE got by without much trouble and are doing well again.
2022/04/25 14:12:34
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I’d say that 5th at least was more balanced, and also promoted casual play which most players find more fun.
It promoted casual play, but it wasn't balanced at all.
Maybe 5th edition core book with 4th edition codexes could be considered more balanced, but 5th quickly broke its own balance with the 5th ed IG codex.
Eldar too. Wave Serpents were filthy. Grey Knights and Blood Angels were "meta" picks as well, iirc.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone call it? We have zero clue where GW is going now. IG squads are basically the same cost no matter what you put into them, Custodes are getting a "once per game" special rule that only effects specific units anyhow, Harlequins are barely touched, but Tau are nerfed, in that a SMS now has less accuracy than a HWT Mortar, a Tactical Marine is now somehow More durable than a Terminator, and DE are basically untouched.
We're already seeing people calling it quits in the Tactica threads over this "balance" patch. You can't balance your way out of 9th now. Just cut the life support and call the remaining codexes the start of 10th.
Only problem now is you can't artificially delay their release "due to COVID" or "Brexit" since the world has had 3 years to get that under control. Well except for the British, but they think Boris Johnson is still a capable leader of a nation, so I guess they can get a pass. They did it to themselves.
Oh wait, we now have WW3 for them to say is hurting shipping.
You know what? Just screw this all. Screw 10th. A new paid CA is coming out in two months anyway, where I'm sure everything will be fixed, and Trajann will now cost 110 points, but Voidreavers will cost 165 points per model. Because this game is a dead horse, that keeps popping it's pustules and farting out corpse gas in the form of "balance updates", and we keep paying to give it another kick.
I'm not sure if Guard is just in that spot, because the rules aren't enough or because people with enough experience haven't decided to champion them. Either way HoE hasn't blown the scene up yet. Custodes aren't dead. Harlies took a pretty big hit.
I guess the one thing that is right is DE got by without much trouble and are doing well again.
So, one week in and Custodes, Tau, and Harlequins are down in the 50-55% sweet spot, while CWE, Nids, and Dark Eldar continue to reign. And it looks like neither HoE or AoC did much for their respective factions. Question: Where are the Heretic Astartes? No one was playing Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or CSM?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone call it? We have zero clue where GW is going now. IG squads are basically the same cost no matter what you put into them, Custodes are getting a "once per game" special rule that only effects specific units anyhow, Harlequins are barely touched, but Tau are nerfed, in that a SMS now has less accuracy than a HWT Mortar, a Tactical Marine is now somehow More durable than a Terminator, and DE are basically untouched.
We're already seeing people calling it quits in the Tactica threads over this "balance" patch. You can't balance your way out of 9th now. Just cut the life support and call the remaining codexes the start of 10th.
Only problem now is you can't artificially delay their release "due to COVID" or "Brexit" since the world has had 3 years to get that under control. Well except for the British, but they think Boris Johnson is still a capable leader of a nation, so I guess they can get a pass. They did it to themselves.
Oh wait, we now have WW3 for them to say is hurting shipping.
You know what? Just screw this all. Screw 10th. A new paid CA is coming out in two months anyway, where I'm sure everything will be fixed, and Trajann will now cost 110 points, but Voidreavers will cost 165 points per model. Because this game is a dead horse, that keeps popping it's pustules and farting out corpse gas in the form of "balance updates", and we keep paying to give it another kick.
I'm not sure if Guard is just in that spot, because the rules aren't enough or because people with enough experience haven't decided to champion them. Either way HoE hasn't blown the scene up yet. Custodes aren't dead. Harlies took a pretty big hit.
I guess the one thing that is right is DE got by without much trouble and are doing well again.
So, one week in and Custodes, Tau, and Harlequins are down in the 50-55% sweet spot, while CWE, Nids, and Dark Eldar continue to reign. And it looks like neither HoE or AoC did much for their respective factions. Question: Where are the Heretic Astartes? No one was playing Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or CSM?
Necrons and Orks are missing too. Are they trash now?
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2022/04/25 14:53:01
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
CSM 44%, Thousand Sons 44%, Death Guard 41%. Thousand Sons did however have two players finish in the top 4 of tournaments.
Necrons 47%. Orks 42%. GSC 45%. Grey Knights 56%. Sisters 51%. Dark Angels 49%, Space Wolves 48% (most other Marines worse - but with a tiny number of players).
And ninjaed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 14:58:10
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can someone call it? We have zero clue where GW is going now. IG squads are basically the same cost no matter what you put into them, Custodes are getting a "once per game" special rule that only effects specific units anyhow, Harlequins are barely touched, but Tau are nerfed, in that a SMS now has less accuracy than a HWT Mortar, a Tactical Marine is now somehow More durable than a Terminator, and DE are basically untouched.
We're already seeing people calling it quits in the Tactica threads over this "balance" patch. You can't balance your way out of 9th now. Just cut the life support and call the remaining codexes the start of 10th.
Only problem now is you can't artificially delay their release "due to COVID" or "Brexit" since the world has had 3 years to get that under control. Well except for the British, but they think Boris Johnson is still a capable leader of a nation, so I guess they can get a pass. They did it to themselves.
Oh wait, we now have WW3 for them to say is hurting shipping.
You know what? Just screw this all. Screw 10th. A new paid CA is coming out in two months anyway, where I'm sure everything will be fixed, and Trajann will now cost 110 points, but Voidreavers will cost 165 points per model. Because this game is a dead horse, that keeps popping it's pustules and farting out corpse gas in the form of "balance updates", and we keep paying to give it another kick.
I'm not sure if Guard is just in that spot, because the rules aren't enough or because people with enough experience haven't decided to champion them. Either way HoE hasn't blown the scene up yet. Custodes aren't dead. Harlies took a pretty big hit.
I guess the one thing that is right is DE got by without much trouble and are doing well again.
What is your criteria for these #s again? Have any ork data? Keep up the good work.
oops. didn't refresh before i posted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 15:06:29
I still find it interesting that people look at overall stats despite them being massively skewed towards 50% by non-random matchmaking after round 1. Should really just be looking at win rates from round 1 only, since those are randomized.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I still find it interesting that people look at overall stats despite them being massively skewed towards 50% by non-random matchmaking after round 1. Should really just be looking at win rates from round 1 only, since those are randomized.
Feel like this would really exaggerate the selection biases of the better players. Might still be interesting I guess - but still.
Something to keep in mind though about Win rates, they don't tell the entire story since the data can be skewed by inexperienced players relatively easily.
I think the absolute most surprising thing here is that Grey Knights are now winning a substantial amount, while Nidz/Eldar/Tau are about where they should be. I won't at al be surprised if this numbers changes and more Marines place now that the rules have changed.
I do imagine as more people come out of the woodwork the numbers are going to shift. AM could very well do better and it is just going to take more interest in using the army though I do feel the idea of IS murdering the field is way overstated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: That's encouraging, but it's also far too small of a sample size to draw any kind of concrete opinion on.
I agree. I'm just here for the "9th is dead" sentiment.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/25 16:50:43
2022/04/25 17:42:54
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
You know I disagree with the entire notion that because tournament numbers say something then it proves that 9th isn't that bad.
I just played a game where I got exactly one turn playing as Nids vs IG which everyone would say should be an easy win for the bugs. I was effectively tabled at the top of turn 2 and didn't even get a chance at a second turn. This game is dead to me because this is even at all possible. You can tell me all about how if I play certain skew list or if I abuse a certain unit I too can compete and I just wont care. Every game of 9th that I have played has been one sided due to the lethality of the game. There is no coming back when the opponent can remove just about 50-60% of your army a turn.
We play with a ton of LOS blocking terrain, we do not play tournament list and we try to keep things fairly level in the list building but none of that seems to matter when you have a Demolisher that gets max shots, autowounding on tohit of 6's rerolling 1's tohit and the other Demolisher get's tohit of 6's that explode into 3 hits against monsters, both of which get 2D6 shots at S10 Ap-3 and Dd6. Then I get to turn around and shoot with my Hive Tyrant that is hitting on 2's with rerolls with a 3 shot S12 Ap-5 D5 weapon that because my favored Hive Fleet is Gorgon I also get a reroll to wound. These things are absolutely bonkers, both of these things. I long for the days when I could expect any given monster to last for a couple of turns unless it was heavily focused down. I've played since 3rd and I enjoyed 7th more than I am enjoying 9th at this point, because at least in 7th it was pretty easy to see the OP crap before you even put down models. In 9th I don't think that anyone is looking at Leman Russes as OP and in comparison they are absolutely not but they are easily getting 100% returns per turn on shooting.
2022/04/25 17:58:27
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
Daedalus81 wrote: You may not like tournament data and certainly it isn't perfect, but it's better than anecdotes.
Also I am not sure what rule this is referencing:
6's that explode into 3 hits against monsters
I am not aware of anything that explodes into 3 hits on LRBTs.
Load, Fire, Reload stratagem. Blast weapons on a Guard vehicle score an additional hit on a roll of 6, or 2 additional hits against vehicles/monsters on a roll of 6. 1 command point.
JNAProductions wrote: If you get extra hits from rolling a 6, they don’t auto-wound.
No, I know they don't but still if you get even 2 6's you get two automatic wounds at four more to wound on 3+.
Again, by no means do I feel that Guard are OP or even a top tier army. I am railing against the lethality of the edition and how much worse it is getting with every update that GW releases. I play almost every army except for all flavors of Eldar and I have a problem when I do the same thing to my opponents. It is trivial how easy it is to take out 50% or more of an opponents army in one turn.
You may not like tournament data and certainly it isn't perfect, but it's better than anecdotes.
The problem I have is you are presenting and manipulating the data to support your opinion. As NinthMusketerr said, when you account for the match ups towards the top things start to hit the 50% mark or close to it because not everyone can go every round with a win. While first round only would provide equally skewed results I think that a more complete picture lays somewhere in between. Possibly looking at round three in a five round tournament or looking at factions results against each other.
Even still in the grand scheme of statistics the sample size is so small and so easily unbalanced by fringe results that any amount of statistical work with 40k is going to be imperfect and easy to manipulate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 18:29:25
2022/04/25 18:32:08
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
Your experience with losing 50% of your army turn 1 is not shared among a significant number of tournament games. You can lose what you expose. If you expose without taking an advantage then I'm not sure what to say.
Also this concept doesn't really make sense unless the army's ass is hanging out turn 1 and they win the roll off. That's why flyers got kicked in the nuts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arbiter_Shade wrote: The problem I have is you are presenting and manipulating the data to support your opinion. As NinthMusketerr said, when you account for the match ups towards the top things start to hit the 50% mark or close to it because not everyone can go every round with a win. While first round only would provide equally skewed results I think that a more complete picture lays somewhere in between. Possibly looking at round three in a five round tournament or looking at factions results against each other.
Even still in the grand scheme of statistics the sample size is so small and so easily unbalanced by fringe results that any amount of statistical work with 40k is going to be imperfect and easy to manipulate.
I'm not manipulating anything - just providing one aspect of information. NM made a supposition that is ( as of yet ) unsupported by data and is fraught with it's own logical issues.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 18:34:32
I have a lot of sympathy for 9th being too lethal - but I feel "we played with lots of terrain" and "a guard list killed 50% of my stuff turn 1" is sort of a contradiction in terms.
On the whole I'm cautiously optimistic. CWE & Tyranids are too good and I fear that's going to be the meta for the next 6 months (I mean before knights destroy everything etc). DE may still continue their reign of just being too fundamentally good at trading without the other factions oppressing them (sort of matched the game I played at the weekend - I really need to start playing a new army with more fluff than crunch). But at least for now there seems to be more variety than there was. Orks clearly need help. If we are going to pretend each Marine chapter is comparable to a faction they may need a balance pass - but I suspect BT & Dark Angels have legs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 19:03:13
~4100
~1660
