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Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Tyran wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
No, if there was only one viable list in one faction for any length of time the tournament scene would suffer. More balance means more people are interested in tournaments.

you mean like chess?

but than, the tournament scene is bigger than it ever was, and there are less viable tournament lists in total than in previous editions
so there must be something else that compensates for the suffering than

please tell me the hidden secret that makes 40k tournaments being so popular now although they should be much less than in the past

I think you are massively overestimating the number of viable tournament lists in previous editions.


Agreed. It's a flawed premise. There's nothing to back up that there were 'more viable lists'. There's actually more anecdotes on this site that suggest the opposite. Most talk about any edition 3rd through 7th generally revolves around 2-5 factions being the be all end all of those eras.


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Doesn't it depend on the army? For example GK had 3 tournament armies in 5th ed. Chaos had multiple ones under the good codex, which I don't remember in which edition it came out.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




Racerguy180 wrote:
I haven't bought rules in decades, I buy the models I like. Seems pretty simple to me. The minute GW makes rules that are worth more than the paper they're written on, I'll buy them. Till then, I'm gonna keep on keepin on.
If you like the current setup and find value in the books/rules, keep buying and consume mass quantities. Cuz GW will supply you with as much worthless stuff as you'll throw $€£¥ at them.

STOP PAYING THEM FOR STUFF THAT IS WORTHLESS. If you continue to pay for rules that you don't like I really dont know what to tell you. If the models sucked you can be sure as gak I wouldn't buy them.

What a novel idea.



You sure do spend a lot of time on stuff that's 'worthless'. Maybe don't spend so much time on 40k rules boards if you don't have at least a tangential interest in the modern game. After all, we'll supply you with as much irrelevant game knowledge as you're willing to throw hours of your day at us.

Have you considered knitting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Doesn't it depend on the army? For example GK had 3 tournament armies in 5th ed. Chaos had multiple ones under the good codex, which I don't remember in which edition it came out.


3.5. That number is still a summoning spell for long time CSM players.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/28 22:09:01



 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Ah yes 3.5. The last time chaos was really decent at anything barring some flash in the pan mortarion/magnus builds lol.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Karol wrote:
Yep, and it falls apart as soon as someone is in a situation when they have or can have only one army. Then having unfun rules means sitting out an edition. And it shows. There weren't many or any, GK players in the game until the NDK/interceptor list became a power house.

Racerguy180 804585 11354269 wrote:
I don't understand why people can't take charge of their own fun, rather than relying on a clearly incapable entity to do so for you. But I guess some people like being TOLD what to do instead of thinking for themselves.


Because this way of playing is a luxury, and people very much think for themselfs saying no. Let people house rule their own rules sets and suddenly you have the biggest group at the store calling the shots, saying how you will play, what you can take, what rules will be added etc And if you are not part of the group the chance that your changes will be accepted is close to zero.

There's a funny little word called compromise, unknown to the majority of people(apparently) it might as well be a curse upon your children's children.

It's not a black/white situation, its greyscale.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 auticus wrote:
Ah yes 3.5. The last time chaos was really decent at anything barring some flash in the pan mortarion/magnus builds lol.
Chaos has had competitive builds beyond just that.

But, from what I know of 3.5, it wasn't "OMG SO POWERFUL!" that people liked. It was "Look at all the customization options!"

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 kodos wrote:

but than, the tournament scene is bigger than it ever was, and there are less viable tournament lists in total than in previous editions
so there must be something else that compensates for the suffering than

please tell me the hidden secret that makes 40k tournaments being so popular now although they should be much less than in the past


The hidden secret is that your assumptions are incorrect.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Somewhere in Canada

ERJAK wrote:


One problem is you assume that a player that doesn't like 40k anymore just instantly sells their army. It's a lot harder to offload an army for a reasonable price than people give it credit for. Also, most people just mothball their stuff.

The rest is a hierarchy. Most people who play games competitively or semi-competitively are aware they like that type of play and aware that GW games often don't support that type of play (at least not for all factions at the same time) with their poor balance.

Therefore, players who know there are going to be times where they step away from 40k for a bit are highly iikely to have secondary and tertiary games they can jump into at any time. These secondary games are often more enjoyable than an alternate playstyle of 40k, even if that playstyle is generally better than standard matched play 40k.

Example: Let's say Fred really like to play his Deathguard at RTTs. He was getting A+ Level enjoyment out of it, even when he did poorly, until Custodes dropped. The current game makes it really, really hard to get a decent game in for that army. So his overall enjoyment of 40k matched right now is a C-.

If he played Crusade, he generally doesn't enjoy narrative play as much and he doesn't follow the lore all that closely, BUT the games are much more interesting and the crusade rules help spice things up a bit so it bumps 40k up to a B-

Now, let's say he has a Marvel Crisis Protocol force and an Age of Sigmar Stormcast army. Age of Sigmar isn't having the same issues 40k is and Stormcast are a good army, but his local scene isn't great so give that a B.

His Marvel Crisis Protocol force is fun to play and the game is pretty well balanced and he has local tournaments every month with some pretty decent guys so A-.

So in that hierarchy, Crusade is better than RTT play, but still isn't as good as Sigmar or MCP. So naturally if Fred finds he's not having fun with 40k, he just drops into the next best rung on his hierarchy, which in this case is MCP.



This is a pretty solid post- there's a lot of stuff in here I hadn't considered.

   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I haven't bought rules in decades, I buy the models I like. Seems pretty simple to me. The minute GW makes rules that are worth more than the paper they're written on, I'll buy them. Till then, I'm gonna keep on keepin on.
If you like the current setup and find value in the books/rules, keep buying and consume mass quantities. Cuz GW will supply you with as much worthless stuff as you'll throw $€£¥ at them.

STOP PAYING THEM FOR STUFF THAT IS WORTHLESS. If you continue to pay for rules that you don't like I really dont know what to tell you. If the models sucked you can be sure as gak I wouldn't buy them.

What a novel idea.



You sure do spend a lot of time on stuff that's 'worthless'. Maybe don't spend so much time on 40k rules boards if you don't have at least a tangential interest in the modern game. After all, we'll supply you with as much irrelevant game knowledge as you're willing to throw hours of your day at us.

Have you considered knitting?


.

You will notice that I don't post in the rules section of the board. The 40k section is NOT rules exclusive. Maybe I'm missing something and this forum isn't about discussing 40k...
If you are only concerned with rules then post away in the relevant section. If every time I go down to flgs I hear someone saying how the game isn't balanced/fun/etc, how am I supposed to react? Conciliatory, sympathetic, irritated, etc?

40k as a game/whatever isn't worthless to me, the rules are. We(my group) have realized that GW isn't going to make a game we like and have taken our fun into our own hands.


And no knitting isn't interesting to me.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




 JNAProductions wrote:
 auticus wrote:
Ah yes 3.5. The last time chaos was really decent at anything barring some flash in the pan mortarion/magnus builds lol.
Chaos has had competitive builds beyond just that.

But, from what I know of 3.5, it wasn't "OMG SO POWERFUL!" that people liked. It was "Look at all the customization options!"


The 3.5 codex had two commonly played OP builds. The lash prince and the iron warriors. The iron warriors just because they got an extra heavy slot so they could take more heavy tanks. Today's 40k we call that a Tuesday but back then it was a big deal.

I liked it because I could play my chaos legions like Thousand Sons and not feel like I was being groin stomped the entire time and told to git gud. It did indeed have a bunch of cool customization options that made it feel like it was both chaos and inspired by legions. It was the tastiest chaos codex ever.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Lash prince was the 4e book, iirc. I don't think the whole "move enemy models with a psychic power-like thing" showed up until Late 4th.

The 3.5 dex did have Pavane of Slaanesh, but iirc that was different than Lash...

*Brain itch*
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

3.5 had Siren, a minor Slaaneshi psychic power that allowed your psykers to hide. It was random though, so people would pump 60-ish points into "Minor Psychic Power" to increase their chances of rolling it.

But it was nothing compared to Fzorgle... sorry, Lash of Submission.

[EDIT]: Oh hey look at that, Dakka already has an explanation of "Fzorgle".


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/29 05:10:32


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The hidden secret is that your assumptions are incorrect.
which one?
just because I don't believe Hecaton that the 40k tournament scene would suffer with bad balance?

as I don't think that the current game is balanced in the first place and the tournament scene seems to be very good at ignoring this

yes there is a breaking point were people quit and the scene dies if it is too bad, but going by the current state either the game is balanced, or the tournament scene does not care

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Nah, I'm not interested in a game where Space Marines win everything forever, and nobody should be.


I never said or implied anything of the sort. The point was there was a time in 3rd and 4th and part way into 5th where you played armies that felt unique and different even from the same faction and you were encouraged and sometimes rewarded to play them in accordance to the lore even if they lacked in certain roles on the battle field(one of the reasons why chaos 3.5 is still the best chaos codex ever made).

A 3rd ed ravenwing bike based army played very different than a 3rd ed white scars bike based army even though both were marines and both centered around bikes.

Same with eldar using the 4th ed codex an Alaitoc themed army played very different than a Saim Hann or Iyanden list. but they felt like they belonged in the 40K universe.

The sad part is that some factions did not get enough of this love during those editions or had to rely on FW to actually flesh out the lore and rules to make them into something that was right.

Again it comes down to "your dudes" fighting epic battles in the 41st millenium. not which power build was most efficient on points/combos to win tournaments, even though those players existed it was still quite easy to find players who were not like that. i was quite impressed with the guy who played the chapter approved special all kroot list for his "tau" army.

Fortunately, GW walked away from BFG before they took that dynamic of the game away. i still think it is the best game they ever made in the 40K setting.








GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 kodos wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
The hidden secret is that your assumptions are incorrect.
which one?
just because I don't believe Hecaton that the 40k tournament scene would suffer with bad balance?

as I don't think that the current game is balanced in the first place and the tournament scene seems to be very good at ignoring this

yes there is a breaking point were people quit and the scene dies if it is too bad, but going by the current state either the game is balanced, or the tournament scene does not care

Pretty much sums it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/29 06:17:19


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




3.5 was both - yes, narrative legion-specific customisation options was great.


But it also had "yeah, you get aspiring champions free and all their wargear cones off a cheaper list despite them being as powerful as most people's hqs if you give them daenonic stuff" and the infiltrate-and-counts-as-cavalry daemon Prince who could charge turn 1 and wouldn't discernable slow down for a terminator assault squad.

Plus the iron warriors able to take more artillery tanks than a guard army.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 kodos wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
No, if there was only one viable list in one faction for any length of time the tournament scene would suffer. More balance means more people are interested in tournaments.

you mean like chess?

but than, the tournament scene is bigger than it ever was, and there are less viable tournament lists in total than in previous editions
so there must be something else that compensates for the suffering than

please tell me the hidden secret that makes 40k tournaments being so popular now although they should be much less than in the past


I think there are countless more viable lists (and more capable armies) now for tournaments than what we had in previous editions.

 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

ERJAK wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
No, if there was only one viable list in one faction for any length of time the tournament scene would suffer. More balance means more people are interested in tournaments.

you mean like chess?

but than, the tournament scene is bigger than it ever was, and there are less viable tournament lists in total than in previous editions
so there must be something else that compensates for the suffering than

please tell me the hidden secret that makes 40k tournaments being so popular now although they should be much less than in the past

I think you are massively overestimating the number of viable tournament lists in previous editions.


Agreed. It's a flawed premise. There's nothing to back up that there were 'more viable lists'. There's actually more anecdotes on this site that suggest the opposite. Most talk about any edition 3rd through 7th generally revolves around 2-5 factions being the be all end all of those eras.


Just noticed this one-

Please elaborate. i own the best version (IMHO) of every codex from 3rd-7th (including all the FW books) save GSCs, deathwatch and imperial knights (regulars at the store have those as well if need be)including all the index astartes books and the chapter approved army lists. ALL factions were viable and fun to play with the right codex (most from 3rd and 4th).

locarno24 wrote:3.5 was both - yes, narrative legion-specific customisation options was great.


But it also had "yeah, you get aspiring champions free and all their wargear cones off a cheaper list despite them being as powerful as most people's hqs if you give them daenonic stuff" and the infiltrate-and-counts-as-cavalry daemon Prince who could charge turn 1 and wouldn't discernable slow down for a terminator assault squad.

Plus the iron warriors able to take more artillery tanks than a guard army.


Uh...a single vindicator and a single basilisk? unless you are counting a defiler as an artillery tank?

I play against a regular that has that list, it is good, but it is not overpowered.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP 
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

 aphyon wrote:


Just noticed this one-

Please elaborate. i own the best version (IMHO) of every codex from 3rd-7th (including all the FW books) save GSCs, deathwatch and imperial knights (regulars at the store have those as well if need be)including all the index astartes books and the chapter approved army lists. ALL factions were viable and fun to play with the right codex (most from 3rd and 4th).



They were fun to play in their respective best edition, but that still amounts for each edition only having a few best factions.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

EviscerationPlague wrote:


40k fething sucks, man. Units and ENTIRE armies are terribly imbalanced and it's stuck in the ancient IGOUGO turn method. Inertia is literally all it has. You would NOT play this game without the IP you remember fondly a decade or two back. That's just a fact.


A fact huh?

Yes a fact. Any other IP for a game with these rules would be laughed at. You give it a pass because 40k.


You're wrong. I don't give current 40k a pass because of any nostalgic love of the IP/lore of long ago.
I give it a pass because me & mine find the imperfect rules good enough for our purposes.
And between some if us we've adjusted some parts of the game to better suit us. Others in the group like the game more as written. So how things get done just depends upon who's playing.
As we've got multiple editions of 40k + multiple docs of the changes we've made to each there's no real need to add something like One Page to the collection.
Base line 40k is really only in use when I play a game at the shop with people not in my circle. In those cases I'll just roll my eyes at the stupid bitz & play on.

It was never the ip, lore, or actual rules that drew me to 40k. It was the models. And it continues to be the models.
The lore? Some of its interesting but I can take it or leave it. It means more to some of my friends than it ever has to me.
The rules? Largely acceptable enough. When they aren't we (those I actually play with) can change them if we want.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 aphyon wrote:
I never said or implied anything of the sort.


If you try to make space marines "fluffy" it's going to come down to this for a lot of people.
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

EviscerationPlague wrote:
and it's stuck in the ancient IGOUGO turn method.

unpopular opinion but:
if 40k would actually use a real IGoUGo system, this would speed up the game immense
one problem why the game is so slow, is the bad implementation of player interaction

40k uses a I start going with 1 unit, than you interrupt, I continue going, you interrupt again, I finish going with 1 unit and start going with the next unit (and again you interrupt)
break it down to a classic IGoUGo, were the opponent is really doing nothing during my "Go", it would be much faster and the only thing that would slow my "go" down would be me

hence going Alternating Player-Turns, down to Alternating Phases or even Alternating Units, would not change anything as long as player interaction is not changed to after you finished a "Go"

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Jidmah wrote:


I think you overestimate the attachment people have to playing with their models. During 7th the game simply died here - people either retired their armies to display cases, put them in storage, sold them or even gave them away.


This was my experience too. We had a regular group of 25-30 guys playing 40k. We did leagues and tournaments, playing 2-3 days a week. 7th killed the group. Everyone went to WMH, X Wing, or just quit the hobby altogether.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 kodos wrote:


40k uses a I start going with 1 unit, than you interrupt, I continue going, you interrupt again, I finish going with 1 unit and start going with the next unit (and again you interrupt)


??? do you count rolling saves as the interrupt?

 kodos wrote:

break it down to a classic IGoUGo, were the opponent is really doing nothing during my "Go", it would be much faster and the only thing that would slow my "go" down would be me

hence going Alternating Player-Turns, down to Alternating Phases or even Alternating Units, would not change anything as long as player interaction is not changed to after you finished a "Go"


Onepagerules does AA and its much faster than 40k is (and also gives much more tactical opportunities)
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





PenitentJake wrote:

What I meant in the piece that you quoted though is that people have written on Dakka about FLGS groups who only ever tried 2k GT Mission Pack Matched, didn't like it and immediately went to a different game without ever trying any of the other options before switching. That's the thing that I find odd- that an entire group of people (not just one dude, but an entire scene) is so hung up about playing with 2k army and so hung up about playing the same way it's done at tournaments that they would rather buy a new game and spend the time painting the new minis than trying something different.


Because some people want to travel to tournaments and play competitively but 40k in its current state is just not worth it. 40k could be the best beer and pretzels game in the history of the world (it's not because it's extremely expensive, takes months to paint an army, and has an encyclopedic rulebook) but that's totally meaningless to someone whose entire intention when getting into a game is to play it competitively because that's the type of challenge they enjoy. I have a friend who has been traveling the country playing tournaments since Rogue Trader. Now he travels to Infinity tournaments because it's just a more enjoyable game to play in that environment. You don't need to bring 5-7 books with you (for Tyranids players before their new book, they needed BRB, codex, leviathan supplement, a white dwarf, war zone octarius, and chapter approved). You can buy an entire sectorial for the price of those rulebooks I just listed. The game isn't decided by what faction or list you took. You don't just stand around for 20-30 min rolling saves and picking up models during your opponent's turn. You're surprised someone would rather do that than attempt to have a good time with the cluster@#$% of a game 40k has become?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:


40k fething sucks, man. Units and ENTIRE armies are terribly imbalanced and it's stuck in the ancient IGOUGO turn method. Inertia is literally all it has. You would NOT play this game without the IP you remember fondly a decade or two back. That's just a fact.


A fact huh?

Yes a fact. Any other IP for a game with these rules would be laughed at. You give it a pass because 40k.


You're wrong. I don't give current 40k a pass because of any nostalgic love of the IP/lore of long ago.
I give it a pass because me & mine find the imperfect rules good enough for our purposes.
And between some if us we've adjusted some parts of the game to better suit us. Others in the group like the game more as written. So how things get done just depends upon who's playing.
As we've got multiple editions of 40k + multiple docs of the changes we've made to each there's no real need to add something like One Page to the collection.
Base line 40k is really only in use when I play a game at the shop with people not in my circle. In those cases I'll just roll my eyes at the stupid bitz & play on.

It was never the ip, lore, or actual rules that drew me to 40k. It was the models. And it continues to be the models.
The lore? Some of its interesting but I can take it or leave it. It means more to some of my friends than it ever has to me.
The rules? Largely acceptable enough. When they aren't we (those I actually play with) can change them if we want.


So if you're just changing the rules as you want, what are you trying to defend?
   
Made in us
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan




Mexico

Toofast wrote:

(for Tyranids players before their new book, they needed BRB, codex, leviathan supplement, a white dwarf, war zone octarius, and chapter approved).

Nitpick: Leviathan Supplement came with Warzone Octarius.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Somewhere in Canada

Toofast wrote:


Because some people want to travel to tournaments and play competitively but 40k in its current state is just not worth it. 40k could be the best beer and pretzels game in the history of the world (it's not because it's extremely expensive, takes months to paint an army, and has an encyclopedic rulebook) but that's totally meaningless to someone whose entire intention when getting into a game is to play it competitively because that's the type of challenge they enjoy.


That makes sense.

Toofast wrote:

(for Tyranids players before their new book, they needed BRB, codex, leviathan supplement, a white dwarf, war zone octarius, and chapter approved)


Given your playstyle as described above and your preferences, for sure- as I understand it, Leviathan Crusher Stampede was the best Tyranid build, so if the tourney circuit is the only way you like to play, it would pretty much be mandatory.

Good thing the new book is out. Still need BRB, Dex and Mission Pack though, so I feel you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/29 17:36:17


 
   
Made in at
Not as Good as a Minion





Austria

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Onepagerules does AA and its much faster than 40k is (and also gives much more tactical opportunities)
OPR also has IGoUGo in use with AA

the defending player does not interrupt any actions of the active player, any interaction happen after the active player finished his "Go", that the single "Go" is just 1 unit instead of a whole turn does not change it
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
??? do you count rolling saves as the interrupt?

not really, although it changes nothing for the game who makes the roll (think OPR changed this to the defender rolling in 2nd Edition)
but how Overwatch works, and some other Stratagems that break IGoUGo for more player interaction but only slow the game down without adding much

OPR would be slower as well with a 40k like Interaction/Interruption System instead of IGoUGo

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/29 17:55:45


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





PenitentJake wrote:


Good thing the new book is out. Still need BRB, Dex and Mission Pack though, so I feel you.



That's why I've been liking Infinity so much lately. I take my models and my phone, which I already have on me anyway. No books to carry around.
   
 
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