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2022/05/03 00:54:03
Subject: Re:Annd Time of death for 9th is 4/14/2022
Toofast wrote: ^ This. That's why the post about "next edition will be PL only" was so funny to me. They already tried that and people literally had peaceful protests where they lit their armies on fire over it. It was probably the biggest backlash GW has ever faced on any single issue.
Nah, them literally flushing the entire fantasy setting down the toilet and replacing it with the AoS setting was the single biggest mistake GW ever made, and regrets doing it every single day. Old world being proof of that regret.
I remember reading an article about a dude that worked in GW design team at that time. He claimed that the lower ups employees warned that going from End Times to AoS within a month, and no for warning or hinting that the new thing isn't a new edition of WFB would create huge backlash. And it was just ignored. But then again he said the same thing about eldar knights being undercosted to criminal levels on order of higher up people.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Toofast wrote: IMO it was because AoS seemed to be a joke game on release. It was the cards against humanity of wargames after years of Warhammer being a more serious, rank and flank, historicals but with fantasy models type game. Replacing that with "no points, and whoever has the longest beard gets a buff" was a huge insult to the playerbase.
Oh yeah it was, and thats why i think them nuking that old setting is something they regret so much, because what so ironic about it, was that only after its death did its popularity explode.
Things like Vermintide and total war warhammer, put GW on the map publically with the general public. During the days of AoS launch and earth 8th, the vast majority of new players were coming in because they played vermin tide and or played total warhammer. The irony being the games that drew them in just had their setting nuked from orbit.
Toofast wrote: ^ This. That's why the post about "next edition will be PL only" was so funny to me. They already tried that and people literally had peaceful protests where they lit their armies on fire over it. It was probably the biggest backlash GW has ever faced on any single issue.
Nah, them literally flushing the entire fantasy setting down the toilet and replacing it with the AoS setting was the single biggest mistake GW ever made, and regrets doing it every single day. Old world being proof of that regret.
I remember reading an article about a dude that worked in GW design team at that time. He claimed that the lower ups employees warned that going from End Times to AoS within a month, and no for warning or hinting that the new thing isn't a new edition of WFB would create huge backlash. And it was just ignored. But then again he said the same thing about eldar knights being undercosted to criminal levels on order of higher up people.
From waht i remember ruomor wise, AoS as a whole was kirbys brain child, which truth be told explains a whole freaking lot about how much of a disaster is was, he also had a big hand in a lot of changes of 8th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/03 00:59:55
Except it has been proven across multiple games that a decent game will attract more player and generate more sales.
That's true, but being the only wargame with a full wall of mini in most LGS kinda counteracts the fact that the game is poor. Some random kid wanting to play wargames will most probably have heard of 40k before any other ones, and is gonna be able to walk in his store to pickup a start collecting/combat patrol.
40k is the most discussed online wargame
40k is the game with the most content on youtube
40k is the biggest.
GW reached a point where the sheer inertia of the franchise will carry them through tough times
...and yet it has never reached the same level of success as WoW or MtG or LoL or D&D or any other game which has embraced the truth of "make your game better = more $$$".
Maybe they hit the cap of how much plastic and paper they can sell during the beginning of 9th and decided that they don't want to be better anymore?
None of those games had really awkward association with LITERAL Nazis and White Supremacists. LoL may have weeb issues, and tons of rampant ick, but DnD never had to apologize for being a fachist's wetdream in table top form. DnD never had to make a company policy kicking out racists and their ilk. MtG has cheaters, but has never had to disown some of their top content creators because of some really terrible things they said and still say on videos, as recently as last week. I mean, if WoW ever had an Arch problem, or an issue where people dressed as nazis were showing up to their events, we could make a fair comparison. All the work that GW has done to bolster and enhance it's image in the last 5-10 years, is due to self-inflicted wounds. It's repairing the roof, after it tore it off by accident.
Except it has been proven across multiple games that a decent game will attract more player and generate more sales.
That's true, but being the only wargame with a full wall of mini in most LGS kinda counteracts the fact that the game is poor. Some random kid wanting to play wargames will most probably have heard of 40k before any other ones, and is gonna be able to walk in his store to pickup a start collecting/combat patrol.
40k is the most discussed online wargame
40k is the game with the most content on youtube
40k is the biggest.
GW reached a point where the sheer inertia of the franchise will carry them through tough times
...and yet it has never reached the same level of success as WoW or MtG or LoL or D&D or any other game which has embraced the truth of "make your game better = more $$$".
Maybe they hit the cap of how much plastic and paper they can sell during the beginning of 9th and decided that they don't want to be better anymore?
None of those games had really awkward association with LITERAL Nazis and White Supremacists. LoL may have weeb issues, and tons of rampant ick, but DnD never had to apologize for being a fachist's wetdream in table top form. DnD never had to make a company policy kicking out racists and their ilk. MtG has cheaters, but has never had to disown some of their top content creators because of some really terrible things they said and still say on videos, as recently as last week. I mean, if WoW ever had an Arch problem, or an issue where people dressed as nazis were showing up to their events, we could make a fair comparison. All the work that GW has done to bolster and enhance it's image in the last 5-10 years, is due to self-inflicted wounds. It's repairing the roof, after it tore it off by accident.
Neither does 40k, thats just a boogie man talking point of a vast vast VAST super minority that gets attention; As some one who has played pretty much every game you listed, WoW is riddled with pedophiles, nazis and a whole buch of other crap, MTG is filled with some of the weirdest people this side of the earth, and LoL is one of the most toxic dumpster fires of a community.
"40k has nazis" is just a talking point of people cherry picking the worst of the worst to push an agenda, every single community has crappy peopel in it, the larger the community the larger the crappy people are.
None of those games had really awkward association with LITERAL Nazis and White Supremacists. LoL may have weeb issues, and tons of rampant ick, but DnD never had to apologize for being a fachist's wetdream in table top form. DnD never had to make a company policy kicking out racists and their ilk. MtG has cheaters, but has never had to disown some of their top content creators because of some really terrible things they said and still say on videos, as recently as last week. I mean, if WoW ever had an Arch problem, or an issue where people dressed as nazis were showing up to their events, we could make a fair comparison. All the work that GW has done to bolster and enhance it's image in the last 5-10 years, is due to self-inflicted wounds. It's repairing the roof, after it tore it off by accident.
man, seems like you're really going for the official title of "Dakka's Daftest"
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: None of those games had really awkward association with LITERAL Nazis and White Supremacists.
It's only awkward if you're clueless about how the world works and looking for something to feel morally superior/rage online about. It's not really an association when a Nazi is a fan of the company or product unless the company endorses that sort of behavior. Lots of KKK members are fans of Alabama, UGA, the Falcons, the Saints, etc. Does that make the Atlanta Falcons a white supremacist organization or associate them with racism? Lots of Nazis are fans of Real Madrid, what does that have to do with the ownership, coaches, players, sponsors, or all the other fans that aren't Nazis? Guess it's time to cancel every sports team, TV show, movie, and video game in existence just because 1 fan might be a Nazi. By your logic it is...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, how come the people complaining online about Nazis are always acting the most like brownshirts?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/03 02:24:42
Blndmage wrote: *potential new LGBTQ2SIA+ payers bail silently*
Bailing why? Serious question. Because .00001% of GW fans might be nazis? Or because 40k is so big that it appeals to people across the political spectrum? Bailing because of either seems pretty illogical.
It took a legit Neo-Nazi walking into a tournament for GW to declare that Neo-Nazis are bad. And immediately after you had Right Wing pundits denouncing GW for... reasons.
It isn't a problem that 40k is full of Nazis, that is definitely not true and I even know a few LGBTQ2SIA+ players... but goddamn the fandom online discourse (which as always it is dominated by loud donkey-caves) about it is toxic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/03 03:37:12
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: MtG has cheaters, but has never had to disown some of their top content creators because of some really terrible things they said and still say on videos, as recently as last week.
Go look at cards banned because of art. Go look at the people banned from MtG events because of their politics. I can understand why people would want to circle the wagons. Look at the comics industry, the next thing they are pushing for is less than half of all characters can be straight white people, 55% of the US is straight and white. One day it's the Nazis, day 2 it's Tau players, day 30 it's sculpting breasts on a Hive Tyrant, day 60 it's putting sombreros on Orks, day 90 it's playing Slaanesh Daemons. We should stop somewhere between day 3 and 89 but exactly where is hard to determine.
The biggest problems of 9th edition, just like all editions before are:
- Codex creep, inability to stick with design paradigms, not going back to fix released codices
- Rules team playing favorites with factions, not just in terms of power, but also in terms of quality and effort put in
- Rules team not actually knowing their game well enough to tweak it
A huge problem with 9th (and 8th) is that the core rules are so bare bones. It leaves very little design space and lacks mechanical depth that it forces game mechanics / rules to be added into the codex which is something that other codexes cannot reasonably design around. Generally a codex's special rules are mostly modifying what you can do with the core rules (move, shoot, chop, die) so it really limits how much more a unit or weapon can do. This results in a lot of power creep as the codex pumps up those numbers (number of attacks, to hit, to wound, damage, saves, wounds, etc) without really having any sort of way to counter play it without just having even more pumped up numbers or USRs (unique special rules in this case). This also causes a lot of rules layering which creates a huge amount of tall bloat (that stacking effect which rapidly escalates power creep or balance issues) where as the older rule sets tended to have a lot of wide bloat (a large amount of niche stuff which tends to cause less power creep issues but more rules questions due to GW's generally poor way of wording its rules). Formation rules in 7th showed how problematic this could be but I would argue that the wide bloat style of the BRB helped make a lot of formations interesting without just being a number pump.
If anything those three issues were worse in 7th that they were in 9th. Codex creep was rampant then, pet armies received buffs and tons of powerful formations, while armies the team didn't care about received nerfs and half-assed rules which were not play-tested once.
9th was a perfectly fine edition until Codex: Durkhari and could have stayed that way if the rules writers hadn't fallen back into their old habits.
Never said it wasn't the case, 2nd half of 7th was a runaway train of power creep until the whole thing went over a cliff because GW had lost the plot entirely. What I'm pointing out is that a huge issue with 9th is because of the core rules being so narrow in it's framework. It's not just GW writers fall backing into their old habits but that the foundation laid in 8th is one of the fundimental issues with the game currently and how the very bare bones structure they decided to go with is counter intuative to both complex gameplay but more importantly not being very compatible to GW's rule style of piling on more gak with each release.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
As a matter of fact that is exactly what our group does. we play core 5th ed rules but any codex of your choice is allowed from 3rd-7th. so we do get all the best (most lore accurate and flavorful codex) choices for recreational play. all of those editions are very cross compatible as well as the fact that many codexes existed for years across multiple editions given GWs release model.
Huh. That's an interesting idea.
But does it not create issues with USRs, psychic powers or other such changing between editions?
e.g. if I'm remembering correctly, psychic powers in 5th were cast just with a leadership test, usually in your movement or shooting phase. However, in later editions you had whole tables of randomly-determined psychic powers, cast using the Magic Phase from WHFB - including power and dispel dice.
How do you resolve that sort of thing?
I don't recall exactly how Aphyon resolved the psychic power side of thing. At a minimum, you can do things where a unit references the USR that matches the rulebook edition that was in use when the codex came out.
Honestly, with regard to psychic powers, you can just ignore all the fancy psychic power points and just have it where a psychic can just cast 1 power per turn or up to two powers per turn if it knows more than one. Works fine and is much less fiddly. Maybe that's what Aphyon does.
The topic kind of took off before i could get back online to answer this.
It is really very simple-core 5th ed rules apply
USRs There are 22 in 5th. if you have some new/old one from one of the other edition codexes you are using.
1.use the one it is supposed to represent I.E.-dunestrider from the 7th admech books-it gives extra movement to represent their ability to cross rough terrain easily. there is no extra standard movement in 5th but what it is trying to represent is covered via "move through cover" USR 2.if there is no equivalent it cannot be used and is ignored.
When it comes to psyker powers it is pure 5th ed mechanics.
LD test with perils on double 1's and double 6's.
You can take any power available from 3rd-7th from the codex of your army list, however we purposely leave out some like "blind" to keep the game fun.
Powers are used as they were-intuitively in their appropriate phase (there are only 3 in 5th move/shoot/assault) I.E. if it is a ranged attack (smite/blood lance etc..) it is cast and used in the shooting phase, melee ability during the assault phase(hammerhand, force weapons etc..), support or movement in the movement phase (gate of infinity, doom, fortune etc...).
As far as powers cast. aside from special characters that have access to many powers or more than average casting abilities the regular psykers follow 5th ed rules. they pick powers (one or two in the case of the 2 classes of librarians epistolary/reclusiarch for marines) that they will "know" for the duration of the game that they can cast.
Very few players in our group use psykers. i have one i occasionally use mostly in kill teams, and then my GK grand master w/retinue. for my actual reclusiarch i use gate of infinity that lets me immediately remove the model and/or his unit from the table and deepstrike them somewhere within 24" (with all normal deepstrike rules applied), and since i am a salamanders player i usually take the emperors wrath a S5 AP3 psychic flame thrower (template) to stay true to the lore.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
Tyran wrote: It took a legit Neo-Nazi walking into a tournament for GW to declare that Neo-Nazis are bad. And immediately after you had Right Wing pundits denouncing GW for... reasons.
It isn't a problem that 40k is full of Nazis, that is definitely not true and I even know a few LGBTQ2SIA+ players... but goddamn the fandom online discourse (which as always it is dominated by loud donkey-caves) about it is toxic.
40k reaches a giant audience, it's gonna catch some donkey-caves in that giant effin net. And if a certain online community is toxic. . . Then don't frequent it? I dunno, man. This seems like a pretty avoidable issue.
As for declaring neo-nazis bad, I'd sorta expect a company doesn't have to explicitly say that. Are there any rl fascist fans of The Empire from SW? Is it any different?
Backspacehacker wrote:From waht i remember ruomor wise, AoS as a whole was kirbys brain child, which truth be told explains a whole freaking lot about how much of a disaster is was, he also had a big hand in a lot of changes of 8th.
Rumour wise they wanted to do the same for 40k as done with AoS yet because it did not work they changed it
and the whole thing was born from the idea that GW does not need a game to sell model
as the past has shown, GW need a game, but the game just needs to be good enough to get people into thinking "I need this model to have fun" rather than "I can buy what I want/like and have fun"
Toofast wrote:This. That's why the post about "next edition will be PL only" was so funny to me. They already tried that and people literally had peaceful protests where they lit their armies on fire over it. It was probably the biggest backlash GW has ever faced on any single issue.
And yet, AoS uses Powerlevel for 3 Editions now and no one cares
the problem was not PL, but that there were no points at all and "matched play" did not exist
something a lot of people know form historical gaming were you play a scenario and create forces according to that, without ever using any points
something the Warhammer Community does not know and does not want (even Crusade uses Points)
Backspacehacker wrote:
Karol wrote: Didn't AoS require a fans only lifeline when it started, because of the small problem of not having points for units?
Yes, AoS was actually very close to being DoA until GW scrambled to put actual points in the game. In was really really bad.
Main problem at the start was that without points, you needed Scenarios to build forces, the Order of Battle in historical games, yet those were only provided for Stormcast and new-Khorne in the beginning
hence everyone who played something else or wanted to switch from Warhammer Fantasy had nothing and needed to create such scenarios on their own
and here it was much easier to come up with points and matched play than to create scenarios for each possible encounter
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
None of those games had really awkward association with LITERAL Nazis and White Supremacists. LoL may have weeb issues, and tons of rampant ick, but DnD never had to apologize for being a fachist's wetdream in table top form. DnD never had to make a company policy kicking out racists and their ilk. MtG has cheaters, but has never had to disown some of their top content creators because of some really terrible things they said and still say on videos, as recently as last week. I mean, if WoW ever had an Arch problem, or an issue where people dressed as nazis were showing up to their events, we could make a fair comparison. All the work that GW has done to bolster and enhance it's image in the last 5-10 years, is due to self-inflicted wounds. It's repairing the roof, after it tore it off by accident.
Hasbro had DnD go on an apology your for saying that orcs had different traits than humans, and claimed that orcs were symbolic of black people. Harold McNeill, an early Magic artist, is a neo-nazi.
40k does have the problem where because they portray the Imperium as unironically heroic people like Arch (racists etc) have glommed onto the hobby as secondaries. You also get the people who think that the Sororitas, or hypothetical female Space Marines, wouldn't be baby-murdering fascists but strong feminist grrls, and that causes a similar problem.
The biggest problems of 9th edition, just like all editions before are:
- Codex creep, inability to stick with design paradigms, not going back to fix released codices
- Rules team playing favorites with factions, not just in terms of power, but also in terms of quality and effort put in
- Rules team not actually knowing their game well enough to tweak it
A huge problem with 9th (and 8th) is that the core rules are so bare bones. It leaves very little design space and lacks mechanical depth that it forces game mechanics / rules to be added into the codex which is something that other codexes cannot reasonably design around. Generally a codex's special rules are mostly modifying what you can do with the core rules (move, shoot, chop, die) so it really limits how much more a unit or weapon can do. This results in a lot of power creep as the codex pumps up those numbers (number of attacks, to hit, to wound, damage, saves, wounds, etc) without really having any sort of way to counter play it without just having even more pumped up numbers or USRs (unique special rules in this case). This also causes a lot of rules layering which creates a huge amount of tall bloat (that stacking effect which rapidly escalates power creep or balance issues) where as the older rule sets tended to have a lot of wide bloat (a large amount of niche stuff which tends to cause less power creep issues but more rules questions due to GW's generally poor way of wording its rules). Formation rules in 7th showed how problematic this could be but I would argue that the wide bloat style of the BRB helped make a lot of formations interesting without just being a number pump.
If anything those three issues were worse in 7th that they were in 9th. Codex creep was rampant then, pet armies received buffs and tons of powerful formations, while armies the team didn't care about received nerfs and half-assed rules which were not play-tested once.
9th was a perfectly fine edition until Codex: Durkhari and could have stayed that way if the rules writers hadn't fallen back into their old habits.
Never said it wasn't the case, 2nd half of 7th was a runaway train of power creep until the whole thing went over a cliff because GW had lost the plot entirely. What I'm pointing out is that a huge issue with 9th is because of the core rules being so narrow in it's framework. It's not just GW writers fall backing into their old habits but that the foundation laid in 8th is one of the fundimental issues with the game currently and how the very bare bones structure they decided to go with is counter intuative to both complex gameplay but more importantly not being very compatible to GW's rule style of piling on more gak with each release.
The first two books released for 7th were already failures of epic proportions and it just went downhill from there. To me, 7th started being a lost case without any hope of redemption after the necron codex.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Hecaton wrote: Hasbro had DnD go on an apology your for saying that orcs had different traits than humans, and claimed that orcs were symbolic of black people.
Which might be one of the dumbest things to happen in fantasy writing in the past 50 years...
this was also brought up against Tolkin and that Lord of the Rings is fascist propaganda (because of the West/East, White Against Black, noble/pure Humans against hybrids, fights etc.)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
kodos wrote: this was also brought up against Tolkin and that Lord of the Rings is fascist propaganda (because of the West/East, White Against Black, noble/pure Humans against hybrids, fights etc.)
Wasn't it exactly the other way around?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Hecaton wrote: Hasbro had DnD go on an apology your for saying that orcs had different traits than humans, and claimed that orcs were symbolic of black people.
Which might be one of the dumbest things to happen in fantasy writing in the past 50 years...
Ironically, it is also a quite racist thing to declare. "Yeah, so those brutish, aggressive and stupid humanoids? Totally black people"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/03 08:46:39
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
kodos wrote: this was also brought up against Tolkin and that Lord of the Rings is fascist propaganda (because of the West/East, White Against Black, noble/pure Humans against hybrids, fights etc.)
Wasn't it exactly the other way around?
Well pirates from Umbar are eastern and evil, same with some of the easterlings. But how someone goes from orcs in any sitting to clearly those are black people is beyond me. It is not even true as far as inspirations goes. The urks or ugurs are based on the 10th century ungar(hungarians) the man eating Oger/Uger is a hungarian, So if anyone should be angry at Hasbro or Tolkien it should be them. Although am not sure if Otto the First would be happy to know that he was one of the inspirations for Elendil and Aragorn.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
The topic kind of took off before i could get back online to answer this.
It is really very simple-core 5th ed rules apply
USRs There are 22 in 5th. if you have some new/old one from one of the other edition codexes you are using.
1.use the one it is supposed to represent I.E.-dunestrider from the 7th admech books-it gives extra movement to represent their ability to cross rough terrain easily. there is no extra standard movement in 5th but what it is trying to represent is covered via "move through cover" USR 2.if there is no equivalent it cannot be used and is ignored.
When it comes to psyker powers it is pure 5th ed mechanics.
LD test with perils on double 1's and double 6's.
You can take any power available from 3rd-7th from the codex of your army list, however we purposely leave out some like "blind" to keep the game fun.
Powers are used as they were-intuitively in their appropriate phase (there are only 3 in 5th move/shoot/assault) I.E. if it is a ranged attack (smite/blood lance etc..) it is cast and used in the shooting phase, melee ability during the assault phase(hammerhand, force weapons etc..), support or movement in the movement phase (gate of infinity, doom, fortune etc...).
As far as powers cast. aside from special characters that have access to many powers or more than average casting abilities the regular psykers follow 5th ed rules. they pick powers (one or two in the case of the 2 classes of librarians epistolary/reclusiarch for marines) that they will "know" for the duration of the game that they can cast.
Very few players in our group use psykers. i have one i occasionally use mostly in kill teams, and then my GK grand master w/retinue. for my actual reclusiarch i use gate of infinity that lets me immediately remove the model and/or his unit from the table and deepstrike them somewhere within 24" (with all normal deepstrike rules applied), and since i am a salamanders player i usually take the emperors wrath a S5 AP3 psychic flame thrower (template) to stay true to the lore.
Ah, thank you very much for that explanation.
The USR thing would seem a bit of a shame to me, as I like some of the later ones like It Will Not Die (though I can also understand not wanting the bother of Fear or Soulfire or the like).
As for psykers, it occurs to me that I don't actually have all that many myself. The only ones that came to mind were the Corsair Prince and Void Dreamer from the 7th edition book.
Anyway, I wanted to ask because I do like the sound of this game mode and might see if I can give it a try sometime (assuming I can find some other willing friends).
Hecaton wrote: Hasbro had DnD go on an apology your for saying that orcs had different traits than humans, and claimed that orcs were symbolic of black people.
Which might be one of the dumbest things to happen in fantasy writing in the past 50 years...
Ironically, it is also a quite racist thing to declare.
"Yeah, so those brutish, aggressive and stupid humanoids? Totally black people"
Ah yes, I remember WotC's genius response to that particular controversy - "Oh my god, you're right! Orcs are literally black people! But don't worry, in the future we'll make orcs less brutish, aggressive and stupid, so that they'll be less like black people. See how not-racist we are?"
I believe the current paradigm for D&D races (or lineages or whatever the hell they're calling them these days) is that all of them are just 5ft cubes of meat with no distinguishing features. Not even kidding.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: I believe the current paradigm for D&D races (or lineages or whatever the hell they're calling them these days) is that all of them are just 5ft cubes of meat with no distinguishing features. Not even kidding.
If people are going to think "this fictional race is evil"="racism" then that's the inevitable end point.
Not sure what the reaction would have been to "They. Are. Not. Real. Go. Out. Side."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/03 13:49:43
Tyran wrote: It took a legit Neo-Nazi walking into a tournament for GW to declare that Neo-Nazis are bad. And immediately after you had Right Wing pundits denouncing GW for... reasons.
It isn't a problem that 40k is full of Nazis, that is definitely not true and I even know a few LGBTQ2SIA+ players... but goddamn the fandom online discourse (which as always it is dominated by loud donkey-caves) about it is toxic.
40k reaches a giant audience, it's gonna catch some donkey-caves in that giant effin net. And if a certain online community is toxic. . . Then don't frequent it? I dunno, man. This seems like a pretty avoidable issue.
And yet here we are screaming each at each other over plastic toys and a company's inability to balance its plastic toys game. So surprisingly harder than one would have thought.
As for declaring neo-nazis bad, I'd sorta expect a company doesn't have to explicitly say that. Are there any rl fascist fans of The Empire from SW? Is it any different?
Yes, there is a "The Empire Was Right" apologist/fascist crowd, which have a surprising ability to pretty much ignore each and every political message Lucas put in his movies (because Lucas is and always has been an extremely political author).
I would argue that 40k has the aggravating issue that GW has pretty much stopped trying to push any political message, even thought 40k was originally supposed to be political satire (and the works it takes for inspiration are all extremely political).
Tyran wrote: Yes, there is a "The Empire Was Right" apologist/fascist crowd, which have a surprising ability to pretty much ignore each and every political message Lucas put in his movies (because Lucas is and always has been an extremely political author).
And there's a massive "Chaos are the good guys because they fight 'fascists' and each Chaos God represents marginalised people in 2022 society!". They're equally as stupid, if not moreso.
But ultimately - and this is the important part that you should pay close attention to - is that these people do. Not. Matter.
They are such an infinitesimally small part of the fandom that even just this discussion is giving them more air time - so to speak - than I imagine any of them have had for months.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/03 13:55:17
60PL 
12PL 
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
~1660
