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I have real trouble finding sympathy for anyone saying an army-wide buff is actually a nerf because one specific build doesn't like it due to said build spamming the one unit that doesn't receive the buff.

The "can't re-roll wounds" change to Valorous Heart is a pretty lame substitute, sure, but calling this a nerf to Sisters is flat out false.

Really the only thing that bothers me is that it affects things it really shouldn't.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I actually think we should compare Zephyrim to Sacresants now. Zephyrim are 17 ppm compared to Sacresants 16ppm. I personally think Zephyrim are finally better for their points now that Bodyguard has been effectively neutered. They get +1 attack, +6" of movement, can fly, and can take a pennant to allow themselves and units close to them to reroll charges. The things Sacresants have over are better strength (with the halberds) or D2 (with the maces, but you lose AP for that), and a 2+ save that becomes a 3+ if there's any AP on the shot (which evens it out with Zephyrim who have a 3+ that reduces AP of weapons by 1), and probably most importantly the 4++ (compared to Zephys' 5++). The other consideration is which FOC slot they take. Sacresants are Elites and so there are more slots for them in a Battalion, but now that Dominions are less good our FA slots are more open, leaving plenty of room for Zephys. Neither unit has ObSec or anything (although both can get it from a Dogmata), so that's a wash. And both units can have the same number of bodies. Zephyrim also have the option to "deep strike", and can have their 5++ boosted to a 4++ in a couple of different ways: the Indomitable Belief warlord trait, and the hymn (can't remember the name off the top of my head).

Personally I think Zephyrim might be one good way forward. Paragons are also worth a look now, and honestly sticking with Sacresants isn't necessarily a mistake, although spamming them probably is.

This is exactly what I've been looking for. A real, honest to goodness assessment of a unit that is significantly improved by AoC and it's place in the army. Thank you good sir.

I was toying with a similar idea and technically, with character support, you could get the Zephyrim to 2+4++ relatively easily, at least in OoML.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have real trouble finding sympathy for anyone saying an army-wide buff is actually a nerf because one specific build doesn't like it due to said build spamming the one unit that doesn't receive the buff.

The "can't re-roll wounds" change to Valorous Heart is a pretty lame substitute, sure, but calling this a nerf to Sisters is flat out false.

Really the only thing that bothers me is that it affects things it really shouldn't.

1. It not only doesn't effect the best build, it actively took that ability AWAY from the best build. It's a nerf to sacresants in Valorous Heart, which was the best Order for Sacresants.

2. If the buff to the rest of the army is not enough to cancel the nerf to the best build, then it is, in terms of EXTERNAL balance, a nerf. It might turn out to be false, but it's not totally without merit just yet.

If the VHS30 Build, which is weaker as a result of the AoC change, is not eclipsed by another build, AoC will have resulted in either a small nerf or no change. If SoB winrates stay in the mid 40s or drop, it will represent either a small nerf or, no change while other armies improved.

 kingheff wrote:
I actually don't think it's going to be too long before people are complaining about how difficult it is to kill power armour, marines included.

That's not surprising, it was a poorly thought-out knee jerk reaction.

I wonder if Dominions and Zephyrims will be worth it now.

Not to mention obsec battle of sisters spam. Like point for point, aren't the basic sisters of battle now the cheapest thing in power armor you can get now? Imagine now trying to kill over 120 or 150 sisters of battle in power armor that are all obsec and run onto points. lol

Same for CSM, just clog up the board with cheap tough obsec, everyone loves playing into that, right?

This just seems like another tears in my beer post.

Aren't sacrestans 16ppm, plus eventual upgrades on the leader? So only 480 points + upgrades if maxed out.

When the rest of the list, 1500 points of stuff, gets a significant bonus such as functional armywide +1 save then yeah, I'm pretty sure the army has been buffed significantly.

Sacrestans are powerful, but they don't win the games alone. And now they might be squishier against a selected array of weapons, but also exactly as they were against some other stuff (AP0 or AP-3+) but doing the math we could see that it's nothing gamebreaking.

The math on the rest of the army, 1500 points of stuff using 2000 lists (or even more if sacrestants aren't maxed out) returns significant numbers instead.

And I don't even think that lots of sacrestans were necessary for sisters. I mean before changes. Good unit for sure, still T3 1W melee only dudes though which died in mass to weapons with high rate of fire. Now they die easier but in many cases they were overkilled so I don't think they're significantly worse now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have real trouble finding sympathy for anyone saying an army-wide buff is actually a nerf because one specific build doesn't like it due to said build spamming the one unit that doesn't receive the buff.

The "can't re-roll wounds" change to Valorous Heart is a pretty lame substitute, sure, but calling this a nerf to Sisters is flat out false.

Really the only thing that bothers me is that it affects things it really shouldn't.

Oh no, their 7+ save ignores one pip of AP meaning that it doesn't actually change the game in any way.

ERJAK wrote:
As an additional WTF from goonhammer:

Lennon had this to say: "...The Exorcist, Castigator and Rhinos should all continue to be staples. I may even be tempted to paint some Paragons…"

Say whatever you want about my take on the AoC change for Sisters, at least it comes from THIS reality.

The only thing the Castigator has been the staple of is the bargain bin. True story, at adepticon, one of the vendors had a 30% off NO SALES TAX sale on the last day. Every single Sisters of Battle unit was gone almost instantly. They had multiple Castigators left by the time they packed up.

I'm mostly a casual player, and I saw it as stupid. Now I'm wondering how much GW paid them for that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh no, their 7+ save ignores one pip of AP meaning that it doesn't actually change the game in any way.

Do you practice missing the point?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh no, their 7+ save ignores one pip of AP meaning that it doesn't actually change the game in any way.

Do you practice missing the point?

I think he got the point pretty well. Complaining that Repentia get AOC is silly since the only game effect is they:they get a save against AP -1 attacks if they manage to find a +1 Save modifier. Oh my game is ruined by this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh no, their 7+ save ignores one pip of AP meaning that it doesn't actually change the game in any way.

Do you practice missing the point?

I mean they got a rule that doesn't actually change anything about how they're played and did nothing to improve their durability at all so complaining that it technically affects them because GW didn't write them out for no reason is a bit silly.

Well silly even for Dakka's normal standards of pedantry.

And sure, if you give them a cover save they get a 6+ save that ignores a single pip of AP, but that's not exactly lighting the world on fire is it? They already have a 6++ and a 5+ FNP so it literally changes nothing for how they're played.

 Blackie wrote:
Aren't sacrestans 16ppm, plus eventual upgrades on the leader? So only 480 points + upgrades if maxed out.

When the rest of the list, 1500 points of stuff, gets a significant bonus such as functional armywide +1 save then yeah, I'm pretty sure the army has been buffed significantly.

Sacrestans are powerful, but they don't win the games alone. And now they might be squishier against a selected array of weapons, but also exactly as they were against some other stuff (AP0 or AP-3+) but doing the math we could see that it's nothing gamebreaking.

The math on the rest of the army, 1500 points of stuff using 2000 lists (or even more if sacrestants aren't maxed out) returns significant numbers instead.

And I don't even think that lots of sacrestans were necessary for sisters. I mean before changes. Good unit for sure, still T3 1W melee only dudes though which died in mass to weapons with high rate of fire. Now they die easier but in many cases they were overkilled so I don't think they're significantly worse now.

The change to bodyguard means neither the robot lady, neither celestine can be run efficiently. That is huge for sisters, because those two are the tougher ones of their characters. And saying that them being bad, but the bad thing getting a little bit worse, is like telling an ork player that maybe his buggies got nerfed, but now he can run more boys, even if he doesn't want to run more buy.


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 Mmmpi wrote:


I'm mostly a casual player, and I saw it as stupid. Now I'm wondering how much GW paid them for that.

For all we know, they could be in the middle of testing 10th ed, where maybe castigators are awesome. The problem of course is, that balance patchs don't exist to prep people for the next edition or the next patch wave, but for the problems that exist here and now. A player who may quit w40k right now, is not going to care that in 12th ed sacrosancts break the meta in how good they are.

Ork players using boyz, nah not if they can help it.

Green tides been dead a while now.

Quasistellar wrote:
I'm just gonna bookmark this thread.

I'm interested to see how the hottest of takes ages.

Beat me to it. Yeah honestly I hate the hot takes of recent 40k. 1 overwhelming and abused unit is being nerfed so now the whole army is being useless despite getting army wide buffs. It happened with custodes lol. they got rid of 3+ invulns and got rid of some strats and legit every custodes player was weeping and crying despite getting good point reductions and a ton of free rules. yeah now look. I this is is an overall buff especially with more miracle dice. I don't see in anyway that this is holistically a nerf.

I feel like units like Zephyrim might be spammed now as they have more mobility and damage while being around the same points. compare to pre-change sacrosancts would be in VH getting a 3+ 4++ but 2+ save against ap -1/-2 but are locked into VH. Now Zephyrim get a 2+ so equal to Sancrosant in VH without invulns (only matters with ap -3) but do more damage and can be played in other melee buff orders so even more punchy but somewhat equal durability. but this doesn't take into account the broken (power level and mechanic) bodyguard rule.

This doesn't even take into account so many decent units getting buffed like basic sisters, paragons, mortifiers, novitiates, rhinos, repentia, etc etc. All the while being able to pick the optimal order. Sacrosancts were the optimal build but I don't think they were so far ahead of everything else that they are better than every other unit getting a massive defensive boost ON TOP of getting their order's bonus. And holistically no one is talking about getting more miracle dice. sure its okays to look at AoC in a vacuum but then you need look at it as a whole. I think overall the army has gotten a buff.

But as always, people will probably find one or two busted units, spam them, they get changed, and we'll be here all over again. but that's just my hot take

Zephs don't get a 2+.

They get a 3+ and reduce AP by 1. Big difference.

jacobiW 804587 11348008 wrote:

Beat me to it. Yeah honestly I hate the hot takes of recent 40k. 1 overwhelming and abused unit is being nerfed so now the whole army is being useless despite getting army wide buffs. It happened with custodes lol. they got rid of 3+ invulns and got rid of some strats and legit every custodes player was weeping and crying despite getting good point reductions and a ton of free rules. yeah now look. I this is is an overall buff especially with more miracle dice. I don't see in anyway that this is holistically a nerf.

Sure and for that I can give you a counter example of GK. NDKs get nerfed, double brotherhood option gets removed, interceptors get a points hike and you can only run 1 GM in NDK armour. But hey termintors became 2 pts cheaper, so it balances itself out. Yet somehow the army is kind of a gone. Orks the same, annoying buggies get nerfed over and over again, and somehow the boys builds didn't take root amonth the players. Not the mention the entire marine line which was suppose to adapt to entire meta, since like DE codex, yet somehow it never did. Pur magic.

Karol wrote:

jacobiW 804587 11348008 wrote:

Beat me to it. Yeah honestly I hate the hot takes of recent 40k. 1 overwhelming and abused unit is being nerfed so now the whole army is being useless despite getting army wide buffs. It happened with custodes lol. they got rid of 3+ invulns and got rid of some strats and legit every custodes player was weeping and crying despite getting good point reductions and a ton of free rules. yeah now look. I this is is an overall buff especially with more miracle dice. I don't see in anyway that this is holistically a nerf.

Sure and for that I can give you a counter example of GK. NDKs get nerfed, double brotherhood option gets removed, interceptors get a points hike and you can only run 1 GM in NDK armour. But hey termintors became 2 pts cheaper, so it balances itself out. Yet somehow the army is kind of a gone. Orks the same, annoying buggies get nerfed over and over again, and somehow the boys builds didn't take root amonth the players. Not the mention the entire marine line which was suppose to adapt to entire meta, since like DE codex, yet somehow it never did. Pur magic.

Terminators also got Armour of Contempt so they're actually much improved durability wise.

You would never run termintors over paladins.
And terminators even with the buff, are still weaker then strikes or interceptors, who on top of getting the same buff, also have more shots, more A, being faster and costing a bit over half as much as the termintors.

Paladins could get extremly annoying. But with nids being out any psychic army that can't deal with MW spam is going to be hard pressed to do much. It is funny though to see that GW forgets their own rules. they did not want NDKs to get the buff, yet somehow other inv dreads get it which is bizzar, but they forgot that unlike every other form of marines we don't have storm shields. So Draigo gets the buff and , assuming someone was crazy enough to do it, GK can take staffs in their squads which can buff our resiliance.

In general the change does have medium to big impact on marine armies. And a positive one too. 1ksons got a lot better, and very annoying if someon can't MW spam for example. But SoB lost a ton of stuff, on top of nerfs they already got, and got buffs to stuff which was not making them win. I don't think that AoC jump infantry is going to replace the old sacrosanct spam. SoB were reliant on protecting their heroes as long as possible, and they can no longer do that.

Karol wrote:
You would never run termintors over paladins.
And terminators even with the buff, are still weaker then strikes or interceptors, who on top of getting the same buff, also have more shots, more A, being faster and costing a bit over half as much as the termintors.

Paladins could get extremly annoying. But with nids being out any psychic army that can't deal with MW spam is going to be hard pressed to do much. It is funny though to see that GW forgets their own rules. they did not want NDKs to get the buff, yet somehow other inv dreads get it which is bizzar, but they forgot that unlike every other form of marines we don't have storm shields. So Draigo gets the buff and , assuming someone was crazy enough to do it, GK can take staffs in their squads which can buff our resiliance.

In general the change does have medium to big impact on marine armies. And a positive one too. 1ksons got a lot better, and very annoying if someon can't MW spam for example. But SoB lost a ton of stuff, on top of nerfs they already got, and got buffs to stuff which was not making them win. I don't think that AoC jump infantry is going to replace the old sacrosanct spam. SoB were reliant on protecting their heroes as long as possible, and they can no longer do that.

Terminators are troops with Obsec, Paladins are not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Zephs don't get a 2+.

They get a 3+ and reduce AP by 1. Big difference.

so yeah I definitely misinterpreted the rules. so sacresants would have an effective 1+ save against ap-1/-2 only and a 2+ base. So they would pretty much always have a 2+ save besides ap-3. big difference. but the damage and mobility difference the Zephyrim bring I think outweighs this. the sacresants have better strength or damage 2 but the Zephyrim get 1 more attack plus being in something like bloody rose for +1A and ap (marginal). though ap-4 is funnily enough is most optimal against sacresants

So +2 attacks (but only +1 after 1 round), 6" better move, ap increase (more useful as other armies will get AoC) and deepstrike, plus more miracle dice I think beats out better save, bodyguard (which was just dumb and broken mechanically), better strength or damage, and heroic interventions.

not to mentioned I still feel every other unit getting a MASSIVE buff outweighs what was lost. maybe not by a lot but I still think sisters are better. Sure lists would run a lot of sacrosancts but they would also run mortifiers, basic sisters, and retributors, and normal which flat out got a major buff. They now all have a better VH trait while also being able to get bonus from another order.

So ap -1 is equal between VH and AoC. ap-2 is better in VH. but ap-3 and above is far better in AoC so more useful on paragons and mortifiers. plus order buffs




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Karol wrote:

jacobiW 804587 11348008 wrote:

Beat me to it. Yeah honestly I hate the hot takes of recent 40k. 1 overwhelming and abused unit is being nerfed so now the whole army is being useless despite getting army wide buffs. It happened with custodes lol. they got rid of 3+ invulns and got rid of some strats and legit every custodes player was weeping and crying despite getting good point reductions and a ton of free rules. yeah now look. I this is is an overall buff especially with more miracle dice. I don't see in anyway that this is holistically a nerf.

Sure and for that I can give you a counter example of GK. NDKs get nerfed, double brotherhood option gets removed, interceptors get a points hike and you can only run 1 GM in NDK armour. But hey termintors became 2 pts cheaper, so it balances itself out. Yet somehow the army is kind of a gone. Orks the same, annoying buggies get nerfed over and over again, and somehow the boys builds didn't take root amonth the players. Not the mention the entire marine line which was suppose to adapt to entire meta, since like DE codex, yet somehow it never did. Pur magic.

well idk about that. AoC is FAR stronger a buff than terminators getting a 2 point reduction. and with the boys they essentially got nerfed. boys getting get buffed with the T5 but losing mob rules and points increase was a far bit worse. Those examples the whole army was gutted. Sisters one unit in one order is getting nerfed (well regular celestines are nerfed too so 2 units). while literally every other unit in every other order is getting a massive buff, much like custodes and very unlike what happened with GK and Orks. I think people are really underestimating how powerful AoC is considering it's free for most things besides SS users.

jacobiW wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I'm just gonna bookmark this thread.

I'm interested to see how the hottest of takes ages.

Beat me to it. Yeah honestly I hate the hot takes of recent 40k. 1 overwhelming and abused unit is being nerfed so now the whole army is being useless despite getting army wide buffs. It happened with custodes lol. they got rid of 3+ invulns and got rid of some strats and legit every custodes player was weeping and crying despite getting good point reductions and a ton of free rules. yeah now look. I this is is an overall buff especially with more miracle dice. I don't see in anyway that this is holistically a nerf.

I feel like units like Zephyrim might be spammed now as they have more mobility and damage while being around the same points. compare to pre-change sacrosancts would be in VH getting a 3+ 4++ but 2+ save against ap -1/-2 but are locked into VH. Now Zephyrim get a 2+ so equal to Sancrosant in VH without invulns (only matters with ap -3) but do more damage and can be played in other melee buff orders so even more punchy but somewhat equal durability. but this doesn't take into account the broken (power level and mechanic) bodyguard rule.

This doesn't even take into account so many decent units getting buffed like basic sisters, paragons, mortifiers, novitiates, rhinos, repentia, etc etc. All the while being able to pick the optimal order. Sacrosancts were the optimal build but I don't think they were so far ahead of everything else that they are better than every other unit getting a massive defensive boost ON TOP of getting their order's bonus. And holistically no one is talking about getting more miracle dice. sure its okays to look at AoC in a vacuum but then you need look at it as a whole. I think overall the army has gotten a buff.

But as always, people will probably find one or two busted units, spam them, they get changed, and we'll be here all over again. but that's just my hot take

I think the important thing to note is Sacs were and still are a load bearing unit - They were always going to get the bodyguard nerf, the game needed it - but sisters don't have the units to do what they do. Maybe the BSS brick will claw back some ground but the cost to support that build and the lethality increse of the game since the last time I saw it makes me doubt it will get enough results.

Zephyrim aren't going to become the magic replacement. They have inferior durability, damage output and compete with another squad for speed. Repentia too are past their prime there a too many matchups where they underpeform(part of the reason - maybe the main - Sacrescants became popular to begin with) and they only get less playable with AoC. Nundams for all their defensive buffs still fall over when something looks at them and would need a doubling of Rhino chassis wounds or a worthwhile invunerable save before that changes.

While I'm not all doom and gloom about this update as a lot of internet SoB players, there's no reason to expect a revolution in game results either

The stuff that really gets mileage out of it is 2+ save models with mortal wound defense. GKs, BTs, that sort of thing. People say TS but I think the lack of defense against non-psychic MWs is a big weakness for them, with how many non-psychic MWs there are out there these days.

Sisters really don't have the datasheets they need to get the most out of this. It may be going too far to call it a nerf, but it doesn't seem like much of a buff, either.

Sisters probably break even on this. They lose out on some of their AP (like heavy bolters) but gain a slight durability buff.

Time will tell for sure and I think lists may change a bit to compensate but the army doesn't look dead to me.

Then again I have biases based around living through the WD and digital only codexes.

The only thing I would say is that Sacresants should probably get a reversal of the points increase they received, especially since this was in relation to the bodyguard ability which has been changed considerably. That would go a long way to making them seem like they took too many hits.

 bullyboy wrote:
The only thing I would say is that Sacresants should probably get a reversal of the points increase they received, especially since this was in relation to the bodyguard ability which has been changed considerably. That would go a long way to making them seem like they took too many hits.

Pfff, be serious. This is GW we're talking about.

Karol wrote:


The change to bodyguard means neither the robot lady, neither celestine can be run efficiently. That is huge for sisters, because those two are the tougher ones of their characters. And saying that them being bad, but the bad thing getting a little bit worse, is like telling an ork player that maybe his buggies got nerfed, but now he can run more boys, even if he doesn't want to run more buy.

For their points and abilities both Vahl and Celestine don't need bodyguards to shine. In fact I've never seen players using bodyguards for those two characters in 9th.


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 bullyboy wrote:
The only thing I would say is that Sacresants should probably get a reversal of the points increase they received, especially since this was in relation to the bodyguard ability which has been changed considerably. That would go a long way to making them seem like they took too many hits.

At 16ppm they are cheap enough to be taken in large numbers anyway IMHO.

For their points and abilities both Vahl and Celestine don't need bodyguards to shine. In fact I've never seen players using bodyguards for those two characters in 9th.

SoB have been falling off with the old bodyguard rules, old sacrosancts and old VH. And as never seen goes, it really doesn't prove much. I have 0 NDKs and 0 power armoured models in my army. Does it mean it is okey to say that GK don't play multiple NDKs, no termintators and max interceptors?

At 16ppm they are cheap enough to be taken in large numbers anyway

they are not efficient enough to cost 16pts, post changes. Worse part is that unlike with lets marines GW is not going to drop an extra wound and/or +1A on them to "fix" them.


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yukishiro1 wrote:
The stuff that really gets mileage out of it is 2+ save models with mortal wound defense. GKs, BTs, that sort of thing. People say TS but I think the lack of defense against non-psychic MWs is a big weakness for them, with how many non-psychic MWs there are out there these days.

Sisters really don't have the datasheets they need to get the most out of this. It may be going too far to call it a nerf, but it doesn't seem like much of a buff, either.

True. Maybe if paradon suits had like double the fire power and/or an invs worth rolling. If a change like that was in effect, we could at least say that SoB players can switch to that kind of a list.


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jacobiW 804587 11348050 wrote:

well idk about that. AoC is FAR stronger a buff than terminators getting a 2 point reduction. and with the boys they essentially got nerfed. boys getting get buffed with the T5 but losing mob rules and points increase was a far bit worse. Those examples the whole army was gutted. Sisters one unit in one order is getting nerfed (well regular celestines are nerfed too so 2 units). while literally every other unit in every other order is getting a massive buff, much like custodes and very unlike what happened with GK and Orks. I think people are really underestimating how powerful AoC is considering it's free for most things besides SS users.

The change to double brotherhoods not being allowed did "gut" the GK. You don't see them winning match and a lot of their bad match ups are the newest armies. One can say that it is just one unit and one order. But that ain't really how playing SoB looks like. Playing something else then VH was very niche, like very very niche and also related to the no two convents nerf. And everyone who was playing SoB was playing at least 20 sacrosancts, and a lot of people played more. If tomorrow DE got nerfed by hiking up their transports cost and rules. lets say something like if you are in an open topped transports half the wounds the vehicle suffers also are lost by the unit they carry, it wouldn't matter how good the rest of the DE codex is, and it is better then then what SoB have. If someone removed NDKs from GK, the army stops existing, and it is easy to show, because the "good" GK army was exactly the same army which was good now maxed out NDKS, maxed interceptors and no termintors etc. The army was bottom of bottom tier in 8th.

ERJAK wrote:
As an additional WTF from goonhammer:

Lennon had this to say: "...The Exorcist, Castigator and Rhinos should all continue to be staples. I may even be tempted to paint some Paragons…"

Say whatever you want about my take on the AoC change for Sisters, at least it comes from THIS reality.

The only thing the Castigator has been the staple of is the bargain bin. True story, at adepticon, one of the vendors had a 30% off NO SALES TAX sale on the last day. Every single Sisters of Battle unit was gone almost instantly. They had multiple Castigators left by the time they packed up.

Yeah, I hope that, at some point, the community realizes that even the great tournament players are either spitting hot takes for visibility, or are not as oracular as one would think in their assessments. Nick N. said Ork buggies were fine. Siegler said there were no issues with Tau at release. Now they claim Nids will be to Harlequins what Harlequins were to the field (i.e. S+++ tier) even without Crusher Stampede, and Death Guard are still gonna suck, and SoB are going to be incredible. It's just all really unlikely to me.