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My first question (below) has been answered; a related question is - do scions get Hammer of the Emperor at all?

Hello all, I was wondering about this since it isn't clear to me.

Hammer of the Emperor: If every <Regiment> unit in your army is drawn from the same regiment, then
each time a <Regiment> model from your army makes aranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.

I reckon scions get to use this new rule 'cos it says this in the codex:
Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects

9th Iotan Gorgonnes: Resolute Heroism
When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by an INFANTRY model with this doctrine against the closest enemy unit, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.

So, does the additional hit auto wound or do you roll for it? Does each six you roll to hit do 2 auto wounds? or one auto wound and one additional hit?

Ta very much like

I'm pretty sure the scions aren't impacted by this new rule, as they don't have the <regiment> keyword, they have the <Tempestus Regiment>. From what I understand these are different keywords as the wording within the "<...>" isn't identical?

The supplement "The Greater Good" changes the Scion keyword I think.

HappyTemplar wrote:
I'm pretty sure the scions aren't impacted by this new rule, as they don't have the <regiment> keyword, they have the <Tempestus Regiment>. From what I understand these are different keywords as the wording within the "<...>" isn't identical?

The supplement "The Greater Good" changes the Scion keyword I think.

It's very confusing but the way I read it, the Milatarum Tempestus keyword remains, and there's nothing to contadict this from the main codex: 'Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects'.
If you are playing with Greater Good - and you don't have to - they just gain <Milatarum Tempestus> which gives them access to their doctrine etc.
Milatarum Tempestus is still considered their regiment.

I could be wrong it's happened before!

Pretty sure there is a faq stating that additional hits don't have any specific value, so you'd have a hit that needs to roll to wound

If I am wrong, it seems the way to get Hammer on scions is to not use Greater Good. From the FAQ on that book: Note, if you wish to continue using your
Militarum Tempestus Detachments as you currently have been, you
can simply select the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine from page
65 in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good. [this refers you back to the main codex]

Actually the Storm Troopers doctrine ain't bad with the new rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pretty sure there is a faq stating that additional hits don't have any specific value, so you'd have a hit that needs to roll to wound

I reckon you are right, and to play it any other way would be OP.

The question for me has become do Scions get to use the Hammer rule at all?

I don't want to believe that GW would greenlight a unit that gets EXPLODING and AUTO WOUNDING on 6s, with FRFSRF Hotshot las guns at 24", but here we are.

I would personally roll off on this. This is a level of stupid I would not allow or play against.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't want to believe that GW would greenlight a unit that gets EXPLODING and AUTO WOUNDING on 6s, with FRFSRF Hotshot las guns at 24", but here we are.

I would personally roll off on this. This is a level of stupid I would not allow or play against.

The rules are clear.

You might not like them, but they’re not unclear. There’s nothing here that merits a roll-off.

Scions absolutely get Hammer of the Emperor. Their <Regiment> keyword is Militarum Tempestus. There is no issues using it with <Tempestus Regiment> either, it is an additional keyword Militarum Tempestus units get in a Militarum Tempestus detachment.

I answered the question in greater details here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAstraMilitarum/comments/u4pzw9/militarum_tempestus_is_regiment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

In summary:
- pure Scions get Hammer.
- pure Guard get Hammer.
- mixing of any kind breaks Hammer.

Thank you very much Jarms48, you've done great work there! totally cleared it up for me. Agree with the first comment on that reddit post though - my head hurts. Time to redesign my army list again

Jarms48 wrote:
Scions absolutely get Hammer of the Emperor. Their <Regiment> keyword is Militarum Tempestus. There is no issues using it with <Tempestus Regiment> either, it is an additional keyword Militarum Tempestus units get in a Militarum Tempestus detachment.

I answered the question in greater details here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAstraMilitarum/comments/u4pzw9/militarum_tempestus_is_regiment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

In summary:
- pure Scions get Hammer.
- pure Guard get Hammer.
- mixing of any kind breaks Hammer.

In the codex it states what you say, totally agree. But in a newer Psychic Awakening book they get 'Tempestus Regiment', not 'Regiment'. Can't find the rules about this right now, so do 'newer' rules beat 'older' rules?

If Psychic Awakening rules beat Codex rules, then they don't get it.

Later edit: you address this in your post and though I didn't think about it like that before, I totally agree .

<Tempestus Regiment> is not a replacement, it's an additional keyword Militarum Tempestus units receive if taken in a Militarum Tempestus detachment. That's it.

So, I can run a list of JUST Taurox Primes, (Which would be 15-20) and because of the Transport rule don't require any battle formation for Transports, I can just load them up with Gatling cannons and Missile Launchers and go nuts? This seems silly.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I can run a list of JUST Taurox Primes, (Which would be 15-20) and because of the Transport rule don't require any battle formation for Transports, I can just load them up with Gatling cannons and Missile Launchers and go nuts? This seems silly.

You cannot include more Dedicated Transport units in your army than Troops units

Moxieman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I can run a list of JUST Taurox Primes, (Which would be 15-20) and because of the Transport rule don't require any battle formation for Transports, I can just load them up with Gatling cannons and Missile Launchers and go nuts? This seems silly.

You cannot include more Dedicated Transport units in your army than Troops units

Infantry, not Troops.
But yeah, that's a thing.

The balance dataslate has just been updated, and it includes some extra wording about Scions. Unfortunately it looks like GW did not intend that Scions would get Hammer of the Emperor, however from my initial understanding it also allows you to take scions with regular guard and the regular guard will still get it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/zNYDiBPKGflEhGZp.pdf

‘Hammer of the Emperor: If every <Regiment> unit
in your army is drawn from the same regiment, then
each time a <Regiment> model from your army makes a
ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically
wounds the target. Note that units listed as Advisors
and Auxilla (including Militarum Tempestus units) do
not prevent other Astra Militarum units from your army
from gaining this rule, but Advisors and Auxilla units
(including Militarum Tempestus units) never benefit from
this rule.’

IMO hard to say what the *intent* was, but RaW it seems clear MT no longer qualify for Hammer of the Emperor (never means never, after all).

Reason I say that the intent seems unclear is because they buried the bit about MT never benefiting from the rule in a section clarifying that Advisor/Auxilia units don't prevent the <Regiment> (of which MT is one) units from gaining the ability though they don't benefit themselves. Taking it that way, its possible that they intended to clarify that MT units taken in a non-MT <Regiment> cannot also get Hammer of the Emperor (as there were some initial arguments and discussions wrt the previous wording loosely allowing the possibility) rather than fully disallowing MT from gaining it ever... but if that was the intent they did an *awful* job of phrasing it.

That’s sad. Can’t have nice things I guess. Back to struggle street we go.

I actually welcome the change, since it means you can mix in scions again and still benefit from the rule for the rest of your army.

Not people who play pure Scions. Like me. You get nothing.

Called it!

Thanks for making this though, I love it when YMDC denizens are so righteous in their conviction, only for GW to appear and absolutely clearly write out what was already clear in the first place.

If it was clear in the first place GW wouldn't need to rewrite the entire rule just a few days after releasing it - they would have just left it as is and issued a FAQ stating what the correct interpretation of the rule was.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Called it!

Thanks for making this though, I love it when YMDC denizens are so righteous in their conviction, only for GW to appear and absolutely clearly write out what was already clear in the first place.

Ah yes. Clear enough that gw rewrote it rather than faq　it. They changed rule. Not clarified. Errata, change. Faq, clarification.

Stop the ego spats folks. It has been clarified and is clear and that’s all YMDC cares about!

I agree that RAI is not clear (RAW is absolutely certainly clear unfortunately), since they are referring to Scions with auxiliaries, it's like they completely forgot pure Scions exist when they did the edit.
It seems like they were trying to shoehorn an edit into the rule so that Guard could still take Scions without losing Hammer. In doing so they absolutely screwed pure Scion armies, who alongside Guard were bottom of the barrel according to statistics. Now this new balance patch means Scions gained nothing at all yet lost out on half of their advanced ap against half the armies in the game. With Guard being buffed with Indirect, free equipment and Hammer and Scions only losing out, Scions are now certainly bottom of the barrel.
It's what happens when you rush things.

You dont know what will happen in the new AM codex. Maybe scions will get an additional AP on their guns to compensate for this. So far, some guns have been improved in new codexes.

 p5freak wrote:
You dont know what will happen in the new AM codex. Maybe scions will get an additional AP on their guns to compensate for this. So far, some guns have been improved in new codexes.

Yes but this is supposed to be there to help until a new codex arrives (since a new codex will replace this anyway). Which at the moment looks like it will be a long long way off.
They nerfed a faction that was already bottom without applying any of the buffs the rest of the codex got. It's utter facepalm level.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
You dont know what will happen in the new AM codex. Maybe scions will get an additional AP on their guns to compensate for this. So far, some guns have been improved in new codexes.

Yes but this is supposed to be there to help until a new codex arrives (since a new codex will replace this anyway). Which at the moment looks like it will be a long long way off.
They nerfed a faction that was already bottom without applying any of the buffs the rest of the codex got. It's utter facepalm level.

Tell that to necrons, daemons, orks. They got absolutely nothing from the latest balance dataslate.

 p5freak wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
You dont know what will happen in the new AM codex. Maybe scions will get an additional AP on their guns to compensate for this. So far, some guns have been improved in new codexes.

Yes but this is supposed to be there to help until a new codex arrives (since a new codex will replace this anyway). Which at the moment looks like it will be a long long way off.
They nerfed a faction that was already bottom without applying any of the buffs the rest of the codex got. It's utter facepalm level.

Tell that to necrons, daemons, orks. They got absolutely nothing from the latest balance dataslate.

Which is a shame in itself. However Necrons, Daemons and Orks were not placing anywhere near as low as Guard (and therefore Scions) before this balance data slate. Scions main thing is their ap reduction, so they lost out even more than those 3 and were already placing significantly lower than they had been (in the low 30% win rate compared to mid-high 40%).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Called it!

Thanks for making this though, I love it when YMDC denizens are so righteous in their conviction, only for GW to appear and absolutely clearly write out what was already clear in the first place.

Which is pretty laughable considering Imperial Guard have a 26% winrate right now. Yay. All we need is more nerfs.

Yeah, because being corrected on a misunderstanding of a rule, is totally a nerf. Get over it. Given the proclivity of new codex's being stupidly op, Guard will still get theirs.