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In the context of other laser weapons in the game (e.g. lasguns, multilasers) that are AP0, and going by the theorised operation of such weapons (high-powered lasers that transfer so much energy, so quickly, that they explosively vapourise/ionise material they impact), then why do lascannons (and their equivalents like Eldar lances) have such a good AP values in-game?

If a lascannon were to hit a target, it would (to my understanding) transfer all its energy into the target's surface, whether that be flesh or armour. That surface material would then ablate... explosively. Not only would armour (any armour, even a thick jacket), protect you from the laser by absorbing its energy and ablating instead of you, but the ensuing cloud of steam, plasma, whatever that erupted would then also impair the laser from penetrating further via atmospheric bloom... i.e. the cloud itself would occlude or refract the laser, absorbing its energy and reducing its focus.

Yet las weapons span a huge range of AP values, and lascannons seem to be the Imperium's go-to long-range, anti-armour ground weapon.

Part of me thinks that las weapons as a rule should have terrible AP, and that other weapons could perform a lascannon's current role in ways that makes more sense, e.g:
- Missile launchers (improving the krak missile, or even giving launchers something more exotic like plasma or melta missiles and making krak small blast/Heavy D3). Missile launchers should also be able to fire flakk anti-flyer missiles IMO, but that's a different issue.
- Autocannons, which might need a rework anyway given their similarity to heavy bolters. Lore-wise their rounds are supposedly armour-piercing, and some wikis describe them as being like 'twentieth-century tank guns'... which definitely have a range of armour-piercing ammo options. Maybe switch the current profiles of the lascannon and autocannon (potentially renaming the latter)? The new lascannon – instead of being S7, AP1 like the autocannon – could alternatively be S8 AP0 (like a more powerful, two-shot multilaser).
- Potentially even a new long-range plasma weapon (existing Imperial plasma guns have the same AP profile as a lascannon, and similar strengths, which is why I've suggested plasma twice).

PS: Another thing I think could be interesting with las weapons is an accuracy bonus to the wielder, representing their lack of recoil and excellent 'ballistics' (near-zero projectile travel time, a completely flat trajectory unless refracted/diffracted, etc.).

You're forgetting the Hotshot weapons in your analysis, all of which have very high AP for their relative strenght. Which make them pretty unique in that regards, and that's why I like them.

Lascannons are effective? Aren't they still single shot, D6 damage? Or did they all get the Cognis Lascannon change?

Realism and 40k don’t mix.

Well. Allow me to delve deeply into my knowledge of early, and often rather ropey, 40K lore.

Before Necromunda was a twinkle in the Milkman’s Eye, came Confrontation.

Confrontation is definitely something worth looking into, as whilst never officially released as a book, it was a set of rules serialised rules in White Dwarf. And it spanned a fair few issues.

At its core, Confrontation was very much maybe a dozen models per player, and the rules were stupidly detailed. Like….mind bogglingly detailed.

That’s not to say it was a stupid rule set in case anyone takes umbrage.

It was also some of the earliest properly finnickity detailed background for weapons.

Now, this is paraphrasing, because whilst I have most if not all of the relevant WD’s, I’m moving house this weekend so many many lovely things are boxed up. But, I believe I can give the gist of it.

Essentially, it’s a matter of resistant materials, and channelling of resources.

Confrontation specified that all Las weapons operated by pretty standardised battery packs. A Las Pistol might only hold a single battery pack, and generally lack much in the way of settings. But it’s output based on a single properly charged battery pack was highly standardised.

Lasguns used the same single battery pack as a Las Pistol. But their size allowed for a greater variety of settings. Numbers entirely out my bum right now? A single pack could provide say, 40 shots on average range/RoF. The operator could ramp up different aspects, or lower them. That would affect how deadly a given trigger pull was, and drain the battery pack accordingly (low yield, single shot could allow for say 80 shots. High yield, rapid charge might produce a mere 5 shots).

The Lascannon however? If memory serves it took something like Six Battery Packs per shot. Greater power input, through a purpose built weapon, greater power in that single shot.

One day (not soon, I’m busy) I may do a Background thread on such things, because the background is the predominant part of my hobby enjoyment, and I do like to share!

That sounds really cool and makes a lot of sense.
Probably wouldn't fit in a wargame like current 40k though, because you would have to keep track of ammo for about 100+ models and weapon systems.
I mean, you could try to make it fit, but what would the point of that be? That just sounds like extra bloat on a system that's already horribly swollen.

If I had to put it in modern terms?

Imagine you’ve the ability to throw out attacks based on energy. But, you have a set voltage (I’m sorry, I’m useless at this. I can never remember whether it’s amps, volts or wattage that does the damage. Just substitute my use of voltage above for the correct word, yeah?) per day.

Let’s call it….10,000 volts.

In terms of Las weapons, you could put all of those 10,000 volts into a single human. That’s….that’s them done. Pushing up the daisies and feeding the worms.

Or, you could put 1,000 volts into 10 humans. Some may not survive.

You could also potentially put a single volt into 10,000 humans. I suspect none of them would notice at all.

And every iteration in between.

Bobthehero wrote:You're forgetting the Hotshot weapons in your analysis, all of which have very high AP for their relative strenght. Which make them pretty unique in that regards, and that's why I like them.

I had a sentence about hotshots in there at one point. Can't find anything that explains why they have higher AP either, the wikis just state that they channel much higher power levels. But if that's the only reason... then how do you reconcile that logic with something like a multilaser that has twice the S, but zero AP?

Maybe hotshot lasguns should get extra strength rather than AP2/reduced range; i.e. the hotshot lasgun could go up to a current bolter profile. (Actual boltguns should get an improvement separately to this, and so wouldn't be the same as hotshots... but that's already been discussed to death elsewhere.) Scion AP would come from special weapons instead. Maybe GW could even think about the introduction of Scion combi-weapons.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Lascannons are effective? Aren't they still single shot, D6 damage? Or did they all get the Cognis Lascannon change?

Well I'd rather be facing a tank or terminator with a lascannon than a lasgun.

(Not sure it makes sense for every lascannon in the game to be Assault 2, but I like the D3+3 damage.)

JNAProductions wrote:Realism and 40k don’t mix.

In that case I'd like some S10 lasguns pls.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well. Allow me to delve deeply into my knowledge of early, and often rather ropey, 40K lore.

I'd never even heard of Confrontation. Sounds pretty cool. Certainly wouldn't say no to a thread about it.

I get the thing about variable power outputs (wattage rather than volts, maybe?), but not sure that alone can explain the AP on weapons like lascannons or hotshots. What makes a hotshot more penetrating than a multilaser, for example?

The wikis say that each lascannon shot requires a fresh battery pack (which makes a bit more sense than six... just imagining those poor HWT Guardsmen lugging around packs that are almost bigger than they are).

CthuluIsSpy wrote:That sounds really cool and makes a lot of sense.
Probably wouldn't fit in a wargame like current 40k though, because you would have to keep track of ammo for about 100+ models and weapon systems.
I mean, you could try to make it fit, but what would the point of that be? That just sounds like extra bloat on a system that's already horribly swollen.

I don't get what you mean... why would you have to keep track of ammo exactly? Where's the extra bloat coming from?

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Realism and 40k don’t mix.

In that case I'd like some S10 lasguns pls.

Realism and 40k don't mix.

But the lore of the setting is something to reference-and in the lore, Lasguns are mass produced rifles used by the vast majority of the Imperium's forces. While Lascannons are an excellent anti-tank laser fielded by the same faction.

Your opening talks a lot about the physics of lasers-if you want to apply physics, then I suggest you start with, say, Daemons. See how that goes.

You are waaaay over-thinking this.
It's just not that complicated.

Lascannons are effective anti-armor weapons because that's what's cool in sci-fi (ok, sci-fantasy to be fair). The bigger the laser weapon, the more it blows gak up. War of the Worlds, Star Wars, any number of bad sci-fi movies, comics.... Wich is all at the core of 40k.

This does not need to change. And it absolutely doesn't need to change to be more realistic.

Your same logic would apply to melta weapons, since those use electromagnetic radiation as well. So no, if the energy transfer is high enough, that tank is fething dead.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:You're forgetting the Hotshot weapons in your analysis, all of which have very high AP for their relative strenght. Which make them pretty unique in that regards, and that's why I like them.

I had a sentence about hotshots in there at one point. Can't find anything that explains why they have higher AP either, the wikis just state that they channel much higher power levels. But if that's the only reason... then how do you reconcile that logic with something like a multilaser that has twice the S, but zero AP?

Maybe hotshot lasguns should get extra strength rather than AP2/reduced range; i.e. the hotshot lasgun could go up to a current bolter profile. (Actual boltguns should get an improvement separately to this, and so wouldn't be the same as hotshots... but that's already been discussed to death elsewhere.) Scion AP would come from special weapons instead. Maybe GW could even think about the introduction of Scion combi-weapons.

Multilaser fire wider beam that smacks into the target but dissipates quickly. Hotshots are thinner beams, that punch through as more of their energy is concentrated. And before you ask, Lascannon accomplish both by having bigger capacitor to sustain the beam longer to transfer enough energy to melt armor and target. That's my explanation anyway.

As for making Hotshots into weak bolter, boring as hell, Scions already once were Marines -1 in the older IG codex, their AP3 capacity on a handheld rifle is actually a pretty distinguishing feature, and something they should definitely keep. It's like making a low toughness Nurgle Marine or TSuns with regular bolters. Generic, boring, useless.

Regarding the physics:

If a lascannon were to hit a target, it would (to my understanding) transfer all its energy into the target's surface, whether that be flesh or armour. That surface material would then ablate... explosively. Not only would armour (any armour, even a thick jacket), protect you from the laser by absorbing its energy and ablating instead of you, but the ensuing cloud of steam, plasma, whatever that erupted would then also impair the laser from penetrating further via atmospheric bloom... i.e. the cloud itself would occlude or refract the laser, absorbing its energy and reducing its focus.

I think the later with the atmospheric bloom is not really relevant in the time frame of a laser shot. While for scenic reasons lasbolts are depicted as visible, a lasburst is likely very (we are talking nanoseconds to few milliseconds) short.

Regarding the power settings/different AP: One can note that a laserweapon has 3 different angles of "Energy" (I am aware of, maybe there are more) that depending on their setting can influence strength, AP und Damage:
1. color: the longer the wave length (more red) of each photon, the less energy it has. The shorter the wave length (more blue, even ultraviolett) the higher the energy. Also by choosing absorbance wavelength of certain materials you can greatly increase how much of that energy is absorbed

Water:

This might influence strength and AP (depending on if it can penetrate/evaporate metal efficiently or not)
2. number and timing of photons: in a "small" laser weapon, as few as a single photon may leave the weapon at any time point, a bigger laser may be constructed in a way that hundreds are shot simultanously because several photon sources work in parallel. Lasweapons can also differ in how fast the photons are pulsed. 1, 10, 100... photon pulses per picoseconds make quite a difference.
This might influence damage (how much energy is transfered) and AP (if enough photons arrive, they can melt trough thicker stuff)
3. how many photons are produced and shot per trigger pull/share of the battery for one shot and how fast those shots come
This might influence damage and rate of fire

Enough Nerddom. To wrap it up my completely homebrew image always was:
- Lasguns: wavelength chosen to heat water (perfect to damage organics, not really good against metal, therefore low S no AP), number and timing of photons optimized for "what is cheap to build" (low damage and AP)
- Hotshot Lasguns: at least two wavelengths (one optimized for evaporating water, another for penetrating light armor, therefore better AP) which is of course more expensive. Still relativly (!) low number of photons/pulses (to keep it light enough to carry, therefore still D1)
- Multilaser: same wavelength as Lasguns, but higher photon yield (more strength, same AP). More Energy in Battery allows for higher rate of fire (more "shots" per second)
- Lascannon: wavelengths optimized for Plasteel/Rockcrete/Wraithbone/Steel/Tyranid Chitin etc. (high AP, High Strength), multiple arrays side by side for short, very intense photon bursts (high damage), massive power consumption und need for cooling systems (low rate of fire)


But again: those are just my thoughts.

So those depictions of Hellguns/Hotshots firing purple beams were closer to reality than expected?

Based on the RPGs, hotshots do fire higher power beams but in addition to eating higher power per shot (hence today backpack supply) they also fire a physically narrower beam than a lasgun.

So against an unarmoured target, a lasbolt from a Mars-pattern lasrifle and a kantrael-pattern hellgun will vaporise about the same amount of human body.

The lasgun blows a 'crater' out of your skin and muscle, potentially reaching the vital organs underneath and killing you.

The hellgun burns a "needle hole" right through you in a through-and-through wound which is probably survivable unless it clips an artery, major vein, heart or spinal cord.

The latter is affected less by abating a layer of armour first because it has to burn through less armour.


Comparing lascannon to multilaser is about the same - focused single through and through beam versus a stuttering pulse of 'punches'

If we want to go deeper into the physics nerdery of laser weapons, the interaction with the target surface becomes another variable to consider.

Beyond just reflectivity and power lost there, some materials just respond differently to various attributes of the weapon (for example, a human eye is damaged much more by green lasers than red lasers since the fleshy bits we've evolved with are much more responsive to green light after spending most of our history worrying about predators in the bushes). Who knows what similar oddities start popping up when we introduce space magic, living metal and QFT-powered protection systems to the equation.

The metaphysics of the 40k Universe is different than ours. One is fantasy, the other is reality.

You cannot do a 1 for 1 comparison. Any attempt is based on feelings, not physics, since the 40k Universe has contradictions built into it's metaphysics, of which, there are no contradictions in the real Universe. So whatever you feel happens in 40k, can. It's pure imagination.

The "facts" of the 40k Universe changes as the needs of the company changes, and authors delete/create new fluff.

So if you want Lascannons to not hurt armor, then play a game with 0 AP on your weapons all you want. I'm sure your opponent won't mind.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

In that case I'd like some S10 lasguns pls.

Just roll a 6 to hit and you effectively have that

Because big laser goes PEW

Seriously, your looking for realism in 40k, just stop.

 Ordana wrote:
Because big laser goes PEW

Seriously, your looking for realism in 40k, just stop.

^^^^^Very much this.

It really is not any more complex than the lascannon looks big and impressive and they needed a big sci-fi anti-tank gun for Rogue Trader. Nobody cares if the physics behind it work or not. It's a big fricking laser, as it always has been, and it works because GW says it does. Stop overthinking 40k realism. That way lies madness.

+1 to the above. You can ask such questions as the OP of hard sci-fi settings. 40k is not, and has never been, hard sci-fi. At best it is amongst the softest of soft sci-fi, and it doesn't seem uncommon to refer to it as "space fantasy" rather than any particular variant of sci-fi.

It's the most common anti-armor option because the writers needed a future-y sounding weapon to kill heavily armored stuff that was something readers would be familiar enough with to understand the basics of how it might function(enough that they could visualize what kind of pew it pew-pew'd. Easiest way to do that was just to make it a bigger lasgun.

As for why it does what it does, space magic.

I always like to think of the lascannon to be like the eye laser from an assultron in Fallout. Its just a massive wave of energy that it basically has force behind it and its so bright that it blinds you too. just a massive PEEEEEEEEEEEW as it slams into the target and burns a hole right through.

I suspect whatever arcane and unknown technology goes into Las weapons is purely a More Power = Bigger laser all the way up to Lance weapons on starships. Although I also suspect in the case of hotshots it may also be some magic lens trickery since this is all super sci fi tech we don't comprehend, the rarity and cost of materials is what limits their distribution to regular soldiers.

Part of me wonders also why the Imperium dosen't just equip marines with bigger power packs and hooked in Multilasers beyond bolters being "traditional" and a psychological weapon (most creatures are scared of explosions).

Aren’t lasguns actually thermal energy?, I remember the charge cells actually store thermal energy and lasguns tend to more burn through things than zzzzzzz laser them.

JNAProductions wrote:Realism and 40k don't mix.

But the lore of the setting is something to reference-and in the lore, Lasguns are mass produced rifles used by the vast majority of the Imperium's forces. While Lascannons are an excellent anti-tank laser fielded by the same faction.

Your opening talks a lot about the physics of lasers-if you want to apply physics, then I suggest you start with, say, Daemons. See how that goes.

I find it a bit hypocritical for you to dismiss the lore of Space Marines/bolters in other threads because of their tabletop popularity, yet tell me here that the lore is the final word.

You can't just decide where the line is drawn. 40k is military sci-fi. It's fun to talk and hypothesise about the tech in it. That's half the fun of all science fiction IMO. And there are certain grains of scientific realism (or plausibility) within 40k that you're just conveniently ignoring, especially when it comes to weapons. Plasma weapons linearly-accelerate balls of superheated hydrogen-based plasma contained by magnetic fields. Bolt weapons rely on a combination of technologies that are very familiar to us in the modern world. Melta, rail, pulse, missile, etc. weapons... all attempt to be grounded in current reality or scientific possibility (if not probability). Even most Tyranid weapons rely on organic technologies that aren't utterly implausible: acids, burrowing bugs, claws, bony protrusions, sinewy whips or hooks...

Yes, there are psykers and power weapons and literal gods and whatever else that are pretty much just handwavium or total space fantasy. Doesn't invalidate the other things that the writers attempted to keep within the realms of possibility. Daemons may be more space-magicky than most, but they aren't as exempt from the laws of physics as you seem to think.

ccs wrote:You are waaaay over-thinking this.
It's just not that complicated.

Lascannons are effective anti-armor weapons because that's what's cool in sci-fi (ok, sci-fantasy to be fair). The bigger the laser weapon, the more it blows gak up. War of the Worlds, Star Wars, any number of bad sci-fi movies, comics.... Wich is all at the core of 40k.

This does not need to change. And it absolutely doesn't need to change to be more realistic.

A giant laser cannon would be cooler though if it didn't need to switch out battery packs every shot (boring ). Or regularly replace its barrels mid-battle due to laser-induced damage and fouling (so lame ). Did you know that Scions usually carry spare weapon parts into battle with them, because hotshot lasguns are particularly high-maintenance and prone to component failure during use, in the event of which Scions are trained to... OMG, I can't even.

Would it interest you to know that the 40k wiki article on lascannons specifically mentions "blooming"? I.e. the energy-scattering effect I mentioned in the OP? Ironically enough, the IEEE article also suggests some solutions to the problem that would be cool if implemented for hotshot and lascannon weapons (although I don't see them completely averting the problem).

Hecaton wrote:Your same logic would apply to melta weapons, since those use electromagnetic radiation as well. So no, if the energy transfer is high enough, that tank is fething dead.

To my understanding, Melta weapons generate a miniature fusion reaction and then unleash the thermal energy from that reaction in a convection beam... almost like a giant blowtorch. I doubt they'd be affected so much by air distortions or other surface effects.

Bobthehero wrote:Multilaser fire wider beam that smacks into the target but dissipates quickly. Hotshots are thinner beams, that punch through as more of their energy is concentrated. And before you ask, Lascannon accomplish both by having bigger capacitor to sustain the beam longer to transfer enough energy to melt armor and target. That's my explanation anyway.

locarno24 wrote:Based on the RPGs, hotshots do fire higher power beams but in addition to eating higher power per shot (hence today backpack supply) they also fire a physically narrower beam than a lasgun.

That's an interesting take, I haven't seen the RPGs. The wikis just mention power levels, nothing about beam width.

Although surely something like that would be impractical for the same reason flechettes are impractical... i.e. the actual injury would be minimal? And to cut deep into something, the laser would have to travel through a narrow channel full of material it's already ablated. Basically, it would create a cloud of expanding plasma, gas, particles, etc. within the cavity that would then block itself from penetrating much further.

Side note: if weapons like lasguns and multilasers could create that level of explosive impact with a less-focused beam... that's a huge amount of energy being discharged.

Bobthehero wrote:As for making Hotshots into weak bolter, boring as hell, Scions already once were Marines -1 in the older IG codex, their AP3 capacity on a handheld rifle is actually a pretty distinguishing feature, and something they should definitely keep. It's like making a low toughness Nurgle Marine or TSuns with regular bolters. Generic, boring, useless.

Does "generic, boring, useless" apply to Marine bolters then? I seem to recall some opposition in other threads to them being made more distinguished. Also a whooooollllle lotta people complaining about AP on basic infantry weapons.

And there are other ways to make Scions distinctive.

Pyroalchi wrote:Regarding the physics:

If a lascannon were to hit a target, it would (to my understanding) transfer all its energy into the target's surface, whether that be flesh or armour. That surface material would then ablate... explosively. Not only would armour (any armour, even a thick jacket), protect you from the laser by absorbing its energy and ablating instead of you, but the ensuing cloud of steam, plasma, whatever that erupted would then also impair the laser from penetrating further via atmospheric bloom... i.e. the cloud itself would occlude or refract the laser, absorbing its energy and reducing its focus.

I think the later with the atmospheric bloom is not really relevant in the time frame of a laser shot. While for scenic reasons lasbolts are depicted as visible, a lasburst is likely very (we are talking nanoseconds to few milliseconds) short.

I agree, but in order for a laser to penetrate at all it needs to travel into the target through a cavity it's already created by ablating/vapourising material... which will then be filling the cavity and be preventing further excavation.

Pyroalchi wrote:Regarding the power settings/different AP: One can note that a laserweapon has 3 different angles of "Energy" (I am aware of, maybe there are more) that depending on their setting can influence strength, AP und Damage:
1. color: the longer the wave length (more red) of each photon, the less energy it has. The shorter the wave length (more blue, even ultraviolett) the higher the energy. Also by choosing absorbance wavelength of certain materials you can greatly increase how much of that energy is absorbed
...
This might influence strength and AP (depending on if it can penetrate/evaporate metal efficiently or not)

It might, but also in another way as well. To my understanding, longer wavelengths typically scatter less when passing through materials than shorter wavelengths, which is why radio waves are used to transmit data over longer distances (they're the best at penetrating objects and terrain without scattering). Maybe something to do with atmospheric reflection as well. Microwaves are used over shorter distances (e.g. in Wi-Fi) because they can still penetrate through things like walls, but their higher frequency allows them to transmit information more quickly than radio waves. Ultraviolet, X-ray and gamma wavelengths are extremely high energy, but tend to be absorbed more easily by atmospheres... which is why anything above UVA/UVB frequencies can't really reach the ground on Earth (you go up in a plane, your exposure to those rays increases, because you're closer to space and there's less atmosphere shielding you).

Like you said though, materials matter. E.g. radio waves can travel for kilometers and kilometers, but you can block them with a thin sheet of metal (try wrapping aluminium foil around a phone).

An example of how photon energy can be inversely-proportionate to penetration higher-energy light on the left, low-energy on the right):



Maybe the best candidate for laser penetration is a huge output of lower-energy photons that pass through armour and offload a ton of thermal energy deep in the target. Not the exciting kind of laser you could explode someone with, but one that essentially 'cooks' them from the inside-out... using microwaves?

Pyroalchi wrote:2. number and timing of photons: in a "small" laser weapon, as few as a single photon may leave the weapon at any time point, a bigger laser may be constructed in a way that hundreds are shot simultanously because several photon sources work in parallel. Lasweapons can also differ in how fast the photons are pulsed. 1, 10, 100... photon pulses per picoseconds make quite a difference.
This might influence damage (how much energy is transfered) and AP (if enough photons arrive, they can melt trough thicker stuff)
3. how many photons are produced and shot per trigger pull/share of the battery for one shot and how fast those shots come
This might influence damage and rate of fire

These points seem kinda similar? Maybe there's some nuance I'm not getting.

Definitely a crucial factor though, the amount of energy that can be put into the target before the plasma has time to interfere with it. But then again... the more energy gets transferred, the more plasma is created? Lower energies might not vapourise as much material.

Sherrypie wrote:If we want to go deeper into the physics nerdery of laser weapons, the interaction with the target surface becomes another variable to consider.

Beyond just reflectivity and power lost there, some materials just respond differently to various attributes of the weapon (for example, a human eye is damaged much more by green lasers than red lasers since the fleshy bits we've evolved with are much more responsive to green light after spending most of our history worrying about predators in the bushes). Who knows what similar oddities start popping up when we introduce space magic, living metal and QFT-powered protection systems to the equation.

Yup. It probably wouldn't be hard either to create armour that's effective against certain weapons and less-so against others. E.g. if you have laser-scattering armour, then a multilaser might to diddly-squat to you... but half-vapourise the guy next to you in heavier conventional armour.

BuFFo wrote:The metaphysics of the 40k Universe is different than ours. One is fantasy, the other is reality.

You cannot do a 1 for 1 comparison. Any attempt is based on feelings, not physics, since the 40k Universe has contradictions built into it's metaphysics, of which, there are no contradictions in the real Universe. So whatever you feel happens in 40k, can. It's pure imagination.

The "facts" of the 40k Universe changes as the needs of the company changes, and authors delete/create new fluff.

So if you want Lascannons to not hurt armor, then play a game with 0 AP on your weapons all you want. I'm sure your opponent won't mind.

I can do what I like, lol.

As mentioned above, a fair few 40k weapons try to factor real-life physics into their theoretical operation. So... some fantasy, some reality. And while imaginative, a lot of that imagination is grounded in real-life physical laws. Try not to think of things in such absolutes.

Besides, even a "fantasy" universe can (and should) have internal logic.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Does "generic, boring, useless" apply to Marine bolters then? I seem to recall some opposition in other threads to them being made more distinguished. Also a whooooollllle lotta people complaining about AP on basic infantry weapons.

And there are other ways to make Scions distinctive.

Boring, generic, useless in the sense that if you want to bring bolter-like weapons, you can just bring actual bolter users.

As for the complainers, let them whine, one semi-independent faction with AP on their low str, low range weapon won't break the game, and they were established as having high penetrative capacities since 5th ed. Prior to that, they were just AP 5, so even back then they have a laser gun with better penetration. The only time they didn't have AP was in the very first edition of the game where they were Str 4. There might be other ways, but I like my high AP riflemen, so I am all against removing that aspect of their faction.

bullyboy wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

In that case I'd like some S10 lasguns pls.

Just roll a 6 to hit and you effectively have that

What about if I don't roll a 6 though?

Speaking of which, BS2+ as well pls.

Ordana wrote:Seriously, your looking for realism in 40k, just stop.

Nope.

Slipspace wrote:It really is not any more complex than the lascannon looks big and impressive and they needed a big sci-fi anti-tank gun for Rogue Trader. Nobody cares if the physics behind it work or not. It's a big fricking laser, as it always has been, and it works because GW says it does. Stop overthinking 40k realism. That way lies madness.

I mean, the fact that this thread exists (and has so many lovely, passionate replies) is proof that people care, one way or the other.

Lasers are real. It's fun to think through the practical implications of a weapon that one day could be real. (Also I fully expect Great Daddy GW to read my post, frame my OP at Warhammer World, and then make lascannons AP0 in 10th.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Does "generic, boring, useless" apply to Marine bolters then? I seem to recall some opposition in other threads to them being made more distinguished. Also a whooooollllle lotta people complaining about AP on basic infantry weapons.

And there are other ways to make Scions distinctive.

Boring, generic, useless in the sense that if you want to bring bolter-like weapons, you can just bring actual bolter users.

As for the complainers, let them whine, one semi-independent faction with AP on their low str, low range weapon won't break the game, and they were established as having high penetrative capacities since 5th ed. Prior to that, they were just AP 5, so even back then they have a laser gun with better penetration. The only time they didn't have AP was in the very first edition of the game where they were Str 4. There might be other ways, but I like my high AP riflemen, so I am all against removing that aspect of their faction.

Not that I necessarily disagree, just wanted to point out that if the bolter statline did change (as suggested elsewhere), then hotshots going to S4 AP0 wouldn't actually be clones of the new bolter.

Also the wikis mention hellguns/hotshots having longer range than regular lasguns, so beats me why they decided to strip 6" off them. A 6" pistol?... IMO they should go up 6" in range regardless of any other changes.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Realism and 40k don't mix.

But the lore of the setting is something to reference-and in the lore, Lasguns are mass produced rifles used by the vast majority of the Imperium's forces. While Lascannons are an excellent anti-tank laser fielded by the same faction.

Your opening talks a lot about the physics of lasers-if you want to apply physics, then I suggest you start with, say, Daemons. See how that goes.

I find it a bit hypocritical for you to dismiss the lore of Space Marines/bolters in other threads because of their tabletop popularity, yet tell me here that the lore is the final word.

You can't just decide where the line is drawn. 40k is military sci-fi. It's fun to talk and hypothesise about the tech in it. That's half the fun of all science fiction IMO. And there are certain grains of scientific realism (or plausibility) within 40k that you're just conveniently ignoring, especially when it comes to weapons. Plasma weapons linearly-accelerate balls of superheated hydrogen-based plasma contained by magnetic fields. Bolt weapons rely on a combination of technologies that are very familiar to us in the modern world. Melta, rail, pulse, missile, etc. weapons... all attempt to be grounded in current reality or scientific possibility (if not probability). Even most Tyranid weapons rely on organic technologies that aren't utterly implausible: acids, burrowing bugs, claws, bony protrusions, sinewy whips or hooks...

Yes, there are psykers and power weapons and literal gods and whatever else that are pretty much just handwavium or total space fantasy. Doesn't invalidate the other things that the writers attempted to keep within the realms of possibility. Daemons may be more space-magicky than most, but they aren't as exempt from the laws of physics as you seem to think.

Space Marines are some of the finest soldiers the Imperium has to offer. That's noted by them being stronger, tougher, better-armored, and better-equipped than Guardsmen. But the foes of the Imperium are ALSO stronger, better, etc. etc. than an ordinary human.
Comparing a Guardsman to a Tactical Marine, they have the same move and same number of attacks (though the Marine has a rule granting them more on the first round of combat). Everything else is better. Their weapon is only one point of Strength better, but they also have better rules with it inherently.

Also, 40k isn't Sci-Fi. It's Science-Fantasy.

Regarding the Nuances between my two points:

I try to formulate it differently: One thing is how many photons are send out simultanously out of you laser weapon. Think of a Laser with
one photon source going ...
two photon sources going :::::
twenty photon sources going |||||

The other is: how many photons in total are spend per shot/trigger pull. It might be a million, a billion, a trillion...

Both in combination can mean a (relatively) long, low powered beam going . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
or a very short, intense flash going ||||

In my head canon a Lasgun does this: ..... ..... ..... ..... with the wavelength being optimized for flesh sending lets say 10^10 photons per shot (just for the sake of the argument, I don't know)
a hot shot las does ::::: ::::: ::::: with one wavelength vaporizing armor, the other flesh, with 10^10 each
The multilaser does .............................................................................................................................................................................................................................., vaporizing flesh, with the same number of photons per millisecond as a lasgun, but continuous, until you stop pulling the trigger
The Lascannon does: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| aaaand empty, with 10^1000 photons per shot

Yeah, 40k has more in common with the pulp fiction novels of the 1920s than the works of Isaac Asimov. Hard science really isn't a thing and the authors fudge the numbers quite a bit.

Didn't they give the tanks less armour than WW2 tanks at one point when they tried to delve into specifics?