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Could you just imagine a battle between the First Born and the Primaris?

Primaris.

Because backgroundwise, I’ll always maintain the first born were only ever a stopgap bodge job. A recovery of the last remaining dregs of the Primarch Project, post scattering.

We can reasonably infer this for at least two reasons.

1. Thunder Warriors.

Arguably individually more powerful than Astartes, but short lived. They had their time in the sun, but were then massacred, because The Emperor had new, longer lived and more stable toys to play with.

2. Thunder Warriors.

What? Do you really think The Emperor would’ve stopped there? That he looked at even the The Primarchs as “yep, that’s the best I can ever, ever do. Science doesn’t get more Science than this!”? Give over.

3. Cawl.

Cawl, or at least personalities Cawl has, worked on the original bodge job Astartes. That/those personalities would be fully aware that more could’ve been done if the only had the time they lacked.

Even if we can discount the Astartes project being a bodge job in the first place? There are always ways to tinker and improve. Lessons to be learned, and the resultant knowledge applied.

So whilst I cast no shade at all as those that favour First Born? I personally find the Primaris incredibly compelling from a purely background point of view.

Even their super specialised Squad structure harks back to the Great Crusade era. Line Troopers are line Troopers, everyone else is hyper specialised, but only because they’re backed up by the Line Troops.

First born all the way because it proves that Horus was right.

Can I vote both?

There is far more story potential in the game while both exist than there is with only one or the other.

I know I'm in the background forums, but have you read the WD Torchbearer Fleet Crusade rules? They're awesome.

And yes, I absolutely can picture a war between Primaris and Firstborn- in fact, I think it's planned already. I've thought so since day one.

Don't get me wrong, they won't actually pull the trigger on it for a decade, but I think people are already throwing out story hooks that could start bending it in that direction, and then they sit back and analyze which of those hooks are set deepest.

Advance planning... But with wiggle room built in so that they don't trap themselves.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
First born all the way because it proves that Horus was right.

How so? And about what?

If anything, primaris indicate that the big E was happy with plans to abandon his sons and 'grandsons.'

If firstborn were properly upscaled I'd be happy with just having firstborn.

Deathwatch Veterans were a step in the right direction and I'm really looking forward to the new beakies because the scaling seems a lot better.

I like primaris on a model level...and that's it.

FB are where it's at for me. Even tho I own like 6k Primaris, I just can't write a list with the currently available models that feels good to me.

I can't reiterate more, gimme Primaris level detail on FB MK's(heroes/30k/whatever) and I'm sold.

Refrained from voting because neither option really fits.

I like the primaris models a lot. I like the way their special tacticool gear makes them feel better equipped than other imperial forces in more ways than raw toughness and rifle power. I like the concepts of their units. (Why haven't their been jump pack shooty marines before?)

But that said, the primaris lore is really clunky, and the setting would probably have been better served by just introducing a new mark of "primaris armor" and gear to explain the truescale marines and all their new toys. Especially given how GW has sort of moved away from all the hooks they were setting up with primaris. (No longer free of gene flaws. No longer seem poised to start a civil war. Etc.) If we all just collectively agreed that Cawl spent 10k years stockpiling a wave of "normal" firstborn marines and a bunch of new tech, the fluff would probably be a lot less awkward.

Real marines made by the emperor (before all the retcon that appeared in 8th ed and the re-retcon that happened after that).

It is the 41st millennium, there is no cawl, there is no primaris, there is only war!

As a Chaos player, Primaris are only a little fluff blurb on Fabius' Datasheet to me, so "Firstborn" of course. I also prefer the older Design, Primaris helmets are ugly, most of their models are too clean, they've stolen our Autocannons, they've stolen IGs stubbers, they've stolen Taus hover tanks and they try to be creapier than Nightlords with their reavers. Even older loyalist Marines look more interesting to me, Grey Knights, the last tactical Marines kit, Space Wolves - there seems to be more to discover than with Heresy style bland Primaris that even forgot their Legion Upgrade sprue

Firstborn of course.

At the moment there isn't a single primaris kit that I like. A couple that I tolerate at most. But I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of marine stuff in general.

And my marine army, SW, would be just a dull space marine army painted in light blue if it goes full primaris. There's what, a Lt. and an upgrade with 10 shoulder pads and 2 heads to resemble the aestethics of the chapter? Lol.

They're both Space Marines, and they can both pretty much be made to fit whatever niche you prefer, so I would actually have preferred a "who cares" option.

If I have to choose, I say Primaris because the base models are better looking, and they're just another example of the many many attempts that have been made to develop/improve Space Marines in the setting.

Real shame before the madness of 9th settled (extra wounds, damage, saves and attacks for everyone!) in they didn't do a forgeworld campaign book based on the idea of a trio of chapters in the north not wanting to compromise themselves/rejecting this new fangled tech. Would have been fighting off all and sundry since the rift opened, kept their areas safish, etc. To bring them to heel several all primaris chapters are sent to defeat them. Their chapter trait could have been +1 damage to give them a fair chance against the new marines with 2 wounds and away you go. All your old toys vs the people with the new ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No one should vote Primaris, solely because the Mario kart is such a bad decision

I vote Space Marines.

I really like most of the Primaris infantry models.

The Primaris vehicles are crap. Anything Primaris on a Fly base is crap. They're both too Hi-SciFi and very little grim dark with their anti-grav and comical weapons. This however, is just poor model design.

What sucks is that mixing the two on the tabletop looks horrendous, visually.

I'm conflicted about the original SM's being phased out. While I hate to see them go, deep down I know it's something that was inevitable. In order to perpetuate the SM model line something drastic needed to happen. It's unrealistic to think that GW could have continued to add to the SM model line ad infinitum. Even going back and rescaling all of them would have only gone so far.

Firstborn.

No soulless coorperate marketing-marines for me, thank you.

I've always played marines ever since RT so I'd like to say both but I voted Primaris. I like the current timeline and I am one of the odd ones who actually like the addition of Primaris marines and how the "story" is going. I play Primaris only these days but I would like Primaris to get the elements that FB have but we're missing. Special weapons and an Devastator equivalent with heavy weapons.

Primaris.

They got me back into 40k - i just wish these were the Space Marines that were there twenty years ago.

First born.

I like the primaris models but I wish they had just said that it was an upgrade to armour and weapons and maybe some surgery to put a. Couple of new organs in to give the extra wound etc.

I just don’t like the astartes V2 idea.

I don’t think there will be a first born vs primaris angle, I think first born will eventually end up as legacy models. Why? Because at some point GW will have to do astartes v3 to maintain the income stream

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Primaris.

Because backgroundwise, I’ll always maintain the first born were only ever a stopgap bodge job. A recovery of the last remaining dregs of the Primarch Project, post scattering.

I mean, background wise. Just skip Astartes all together and make more Custodes.

Valdor didn't want marines in the first place, he believed the Great Crusade could be accomplished with Custodes leading human armies. Which may have slowed its progress, but would have prevented the HH from happening.

I prefer Old Marines. A lot of it is nostalgia I'm sure, but I like them more.

The core infantry for Primaris are pretty cool, but I don't like any of the vehicles or non-core units like their terminator stand ins or dreadnaughts.

Spears of the Emperor was a pretty cool novel though that made me a bit happier about the background, but I still think it's pretty poor and it feels very "stapled on" to the setting.

Youre not wrong. They were a business decision to (a) sell more stuff and (b) shore up their ip and trademarks. They were not designed to enhance or improve the setting.

That said, oldstartes hadnt done it for me since the early noughties. Old marines to me had steadily become walking tabernacles. It was so over-ornamented it was a joke to me. Primaris were bringing it all back to plain and mean, though I can't stand the new bladeguard with their bling.

To me, they are the marines I always wish I had. Love the scale. Love the look.reivers are da bomb. Gravis models are what terminators should always have been imo.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Primaris.

Because backgroundwise, I’ll always maintain the first born were only ever a stopgap bodge job. A recovery of the last remaining dregs of the Primarch Project, post scattering.

I mean, background wise. Just skip Astartes all together and make more Custodes.

Valdor didn't want marines in the first place, he believed the Great Crusade could be accomplished with Custodes leading human armies. Which may have slowed its progress, but would have prevented the HH from happening.

Nah. It just would have meant corrupted Chaos Custodes.
If there aren't some secretly already. 40k isn't a setting where power and hubris is simply fine.

The only thing that protected Custodes is that their only function prior to a couple years ago was to hang around outside the Emperor's door, with bare, oiled-up torsos and leather pants.

Not a huge fan of the idea, but why not just make increased scale firstborn using the leg template of deathwatch vets. We keep all the wargear and pose stuff, but eliminate the supposed smallness and the squatting. What say you?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Not a huge fan of the idea, but why not just make increased scale firstborn using the leg template of deathwatch vets. We keep all the wargear and pose stuff, but eliminate the supposed smallness and the squatting. What say you?

Just increasing the leg length is goofy. To properly scale marines you actually want to put more length in the torso. Primaris and the new HH beakies still have wierdly long legs.

Voss wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
First born all the way because it proves that Horus was right.

How so? And about what?

If anything, primaris indicate that the big E was happy with plans to abandon his sons and 'grandsons.'

Horus basically freaked out because he found out about the thunder warriors, and believed the emperor would eventually do the same thing to him, his brothers, and the legions.
Primaris basically proved that the astartes were just able to be replaced and eventually will be pushed out.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Horus basically freaked out because he found out about the thunder warriors, and believed the emperor would eventually do the same thing to him, his brothers, and the legions.
Primaris basically proved that the astartes were just able to be replaced and eventually will be pushed out.

When did Horus freak out about the Thunder Warriors?
Horus's biggest grudge (Chaos corruption not withstanding) was that mortals were telling the warriors that had built the Imperium what to do. He resented the Council of Terra and he orchestrated the death of an Army general who was seeking censure against the Sons of Horus for a massacre of civilians after Horus was wounded on Davin. It was a feeling reciprocated by a lot of the Primarchs and their Legions that the Emperor had abandoned them to be ruled by lesser beings.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
First born all the way because it proves that Horus was right.

How so? And about what?

If anything, primaris indicate that the big E was happy with plans to abandon his sons and 'grandsons.'

Horus basically freaked out because he found out about the thunder warriors, and believed the emperor would eventually do the same thing to him, his brothers, and the legions.
Primaris basically proved that the astartes were just able to be replaced and eventually will be pushed out.

That's a new one by me. As far as I know, the primarchs knew about the Thunderwarriors. They certainly weren't a surprise to the marines in... whichever book. [Outcast Dead?]

Horus' fall was about his own insecurities, desire for glory, issues with Daddy and the technically true vision of the future Imperium (that the Heresy would end up creating).

Well, the later version was. The Slaves to Darkness original version was that he was just a general (though one of the best, and named Warmaster), and fell ill on Davin and was simply possessed by a daemon during the rite in the warrior lodge (which were an accepted practice throughout the imperial armies)

seriously, why choose? I think primaris and first born together make a more intreasting mix

Primaris are pretty decent now and certainly the proportions are better, but the early heavily standardized look, the clear attempt to invalidate the old line mechanically, and the persistent weird separation all still don't feel good and so I just don't enjoy them.

Also, I liked the fluff rationale that power armor was highly modular/interchangeable, and enjoy the modeling opportunities there, vs. now where there are a million types of bolters and lots of gear is expressly divided.

I mean to be fair, there were always a million patterns of bolters - tigris, umbra, phobos, godwyn, ultima etc. Same with power armour - there's 8 historical marks.

Back then they were all.s4, ap5 rapid fire. What's changed now is every variant is getting bespoke rules. To an extent, I personally don't have a problem with this - mkvi armour as stealthy and mk3 as crude but 'ard for example. Bolters too. Its nice to see some variation. However i don't disagree that its gone a bit too far.wmh was a bit like this - there nothing wrong with having a standard issue 'boltgun'.