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So I was reading through the new warcom article on heresy, and much to my surprise there was an asterisk next to them describing how Dorn killed “alpharius”.
“Or did he?, it’s hard to tell with Alpharius involved.”
I know French confirmed that he wanted alpharius dead, but given that he is a massive fanboy for dorn, how alpharius did not act like alpharius proper in the book, and the fact that GW reigns above the writers, I think Alpharius has a solid chance to be alive.
I know this will most likely be a pretty contentious topic, but ambiguity and arguability is the recurring theme in alpha legion discussions.

Insane theory time: one of them is "dead".

While I haven't read Praetorian of Dorn yet, IIRC, they had been experimenting with soul transference, since they both share a soul.

My theory is that they knew whichever of them was "visible" to the rest of the galaxy put themselves at tremendous risk.

However, if the soul, strength, and knowledge could be transferred to another Legionary at will, then death would no longer matter, they could still get the same work done and if a "host" dies, then just pick another one.

What if the Alpha Legion's actions during the Heresy was a test between "Alpharius" and "Omegon" to see who should actually lead in the shadows and who's part of their shared soul gets transferred repeatedly for the purpose of having a visible figurehead? What if "Alpharius" did die, but that was part of the plan for "Omegon" to secretly lead from the shadows?

I’ve actually had that same thought, that’s a pretty good theory and it fits especially well with how alpha legion had some randomly very tall marines and the whole “blood of the primarch” shenanigans they can get up to. Honestly we just need to get some 30k behaving alpha legion in 40k to get some resolution on stuff. Like what happened to their secret production facilities and storage out in deep space that should let them theoretically maintain full legion strength and heresy level equipment, maybe some story of an internal schism would be interesting to hear, or even better just some black book like accounts of their actions.

Yes would be neat if they had been playing silly buggers all this time but the blood necessary was finally running out...

To be fair, the blood is only necessary to give the legionaire the martial skill and dna of the primarch, for things where the illusion only needs to be skin deep, the silly buggery can continue without.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Insane theory time: one of them is "dead".

While I haven't read Praetorian of Dorn yet, IIRC, they had been experimenting with soul transference, since they both share a soul.

Skip it. It was written by the worst kind of fanboy: the Imperial Fists fan boy.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Insane theory time: one of them is "dead".

While I haven't read Praetorian of Dorn yet, IIRC, they had been experimenting with soul transference, since they both share a soul.

Skip it. It was written by the worst kind of fanboy: the Imperial Fists fan boy.

I assume they were meaning the primarch body is dead, but not the soul, which I’m fine with. Alpharius’ power always came from his brain, unlike others.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Insane theory time: one of them is "dead".

While I haven't read Praetorian of Dorn yet, IIRC, they had been experimenting with soul transference, since they both share a soul.

Skip it. It was written by the worst kind of fanboy: the Imperial Fists fan boy.

Well, I'll want something to listen to while painting some fists. What about the Siege of Terra series, and specifically Saturnine?

The lack of a definitive answer is sort of the idea though.
Alpharius and Omegon had their own private war within the Alpha Legion where each would have their own plans and schemes while foiling the other twin. It has good bits and bad bits but overall Omegon seemed to be the twin that wasn't on board with Horus's Heresying. He actively sabotages Horus's plans to recruit the White Scars, destroying a Warp manipulating relay station that prevented the Scars from using their Astropaths to see outside of the Chondax system. There were also a few Loyalist elements of the Alpha Legion, one of which was destroyed by someone claiming to be Alpharius disguised as Shadrak Meduson.

IMO, the first twin "Alpharius" is dead. Dorn killed him at Pluto and the second twin "Omegon" took up the mantle after feeling the first's death. When "Alpharius" shows up to the Traitors muster at Ullanor, he gives Horus the plans for the Solar defences then breaks a blade in two, throwing it a the Warmaster's feet before vanishing. The Alpha Legion doesn't attack Terra in any large capacity and "Alpharius" is killed again this time by Guilliman on Eskrador. I also believe the second death is real and this causes the true splintering of the Legion where we have some who seemingly stay loyal to the Emperor in their own twisted way (such as the Redacted), some who work more as mercenaries (such as the Unsung), and some who fully embrace the Dark Gods (such as the forces of Kernax Voldorius or Arkos the Faithless).

I think that because of the impact the psychic foretelling both received from the kabal they understand the hopeless state of the galaxy, and even though they’re alive, why try to do anything. They’re probably just farming space beets (the most devious vegetable) halfway across the universe because they know that the only way the universe was going to be saved from the primordial evil was Horus winning, and they could have figured out the way the battle was going to go and just feigned deaths to escape to the aforementioned beet farm.

I like the body hopping theory, personally. It makes the uncharacteristically silly behavior in Praetorians of Dorn make more sense, basically using Dorn to fake his own death. From what little I've read of him, Dorn seems like the sort of straight-forward guy who would be relatively easy to deceive (for a primarch) and also be considered a very reliable source when reporting Alpharius's death back to Malcador and the Emperor. Much more in-character for Alpharius than arranging an elaborate cage match where he just says, "Pretty please join the dark side?" over and over.

Plus, having a body-hopping genius working an angle is just more interesting than having the twins get killed off by two of the most boring primarchs.

I could also see abandoning their legion being an attempt to shake up the galactic game board. All the big players are obsessed with thinking of the Heresy as a matter of primarchs and their legions. Having an unaccounted for schemer focusing on the big picture instead of bickering over planets might be a more viable way to change things for humanity.

I’ve always thought it seems odd that the primarch who was the master of secrets lies and tricks etc was out smarted by both dorn and guilliman. And quite easily from the sounds of it.

I thought the point of dorn killing alpharius was alpharius was of proving to omegon that the other primarchs were a lost cause and would never act for the greater good of the galaxy.

So the question is was he actually willing to die (fully dead) to prove a point to omegon or was it a staged death that still proved his point and he survived using one of the methods already described.

Speaking of the greater good, pretty sure Tau fluff is that they had a sudden leap in technology over a short period (few thousand years). From Bronze Age to battle suits. Would be cool if one of the twin primarchs is at the heart of the tau expansion

mrFickle wrote:
I’ve always thought it seems odd that the primarch who was the master of secrets lies and tricks etc was out smarted by both dorn and guilliman. And quite easily from the sounds of it.

I thought the point of dorn killing alpharius was alpharius was of proving to omegon that the other primarchs were a lost cause and would never act for the greater good of the galaxy.

So the question is was he actually willing to die (fully dead) to prove a point to omegon or was it a staged death that still proved his point and he survived using one of the methods already described.

Speaking of the greater good, pretty sure Tau fluff is that they had a sudden leap in technology over a short period (few thousand years). From Bronze Age to battle suits. Would be cool if one of the twin primarchs is at the heart of the tau expansion

Holy throne you might have a somewhat believable theory there. Alphas always loved their xeno tech and advancing technology, being stealthy, shooting people before they can do anything. Tau are also very resistant to chaos so they’d like them because they’re not going to become like the new state of humanity. Now beyond that I’m oblivious to Tau lore, have we ever met the highest of the highest ranks?

Yes, the Ethereals are the highest of the T'au. The idea behind the T'au advancing rapidly is down to the high degree of societal unity. They weren't fighting loads of wars between nations or having race wars so they were able to focus on advancing their culture and technology.

 Gert wrote:
Yes, the Ethereals are the highest of the T'au. The idea behind the T'au advancing rapidly is down to the high degree of societal unity. They weren't fighting loads of wars between nations or having race wars so they were able to focus on advancing their culture and technology.

I see what you are saying but there’s no reason that one if the twins can’t be behind that or a secret partner within the tau leadership. Also I think the fact that Tau take in other races in clouding humans is possibly a clue as it could be a way of the creating a group of humans to save from Choas devouring the imperium

mrFickle wrote:
I see what you are saying but there’s no reason that one if the twins can’t be behind that or a secret partner within the tau leadership. Also I think the fact that Tau take in other races in clouding humans is possibly a clue as it could be a way of the creating a group of humans to save from Choas devouring the imperium

There's no reason to suggest that the Alpha Legion has anything to do with the T'au. They were still indoctrinated into Imperial culture and as a result, are massively Xenophobic. So the idea that either of the Primarchs would deliberately shape the evolution of a Xenos species to keep the Imperium from being destroyed is just plain wrong. It also took four thousand years of T'au expansion before they even reached the borders of the Imperium and that was only in 700.M41.

The T'au ally with other races because they aren't Xenophobic. The T'au'va promotes cooperation and understanding which is a tenet the T'au take to other species when they are encountered. The whole point of the T'au is that there is a faction in 40k where war isn't the primary use of expansion and where people within the Empire live relatively happy lives, even compared to modern standards.

 Gert wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I see what you are saying but there’s no reason that one if the twins can’t be behind that or a secret partner within the tau leadership. Also I think the fact that Tau take in other races in clouding humans is possibly a clue as it could be a way of the creating a group of humans to save from Choas devouring the imperium

There's no reason to suggest that the Alpha Legion has anything to do with the T'au. They were still indoctrinated into Imperial culture and as a result, are massively Xenophobic. So the idea that either of the Primarchs would deliberately shape the evolution of a Xenos species to keep the Imperium from being destroyed is just plain wrong. It also took four thousand years of T'au expansion before they even reached the borders of the Imperium and that was only in 700.M41.

The T'au ally with other races because they aren't Xenophobic. The T'au'va promotes cooperation and understanding which is a tenet the T'au take to other species when they are encountered. The whole point of the T'au is that there is a faction in 40k where war isn't the primary use of expansion and where people within the Empire live relatively happy lives, even compared to modern standards.

The alpha primarchs were very accepting of xenos. They worked with the cabal and used xeno tech extensively.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
The alpha primarchs were very accepting of xenos. They worked with the cabal and used xeno tech extensively.

Just because Alpharius seemed to work with the Cabal, doesn't erase the fact the Alpha Legion exterminated a lot of Xenos in their time including during the Rangdan Xenocides. Omegon it seemed was very much against working with the Cabal and ordered the operation that destroyed the Warp relay station gifted to Alpharius by the Cabal.
So no, the Primarchs were not accepting of Xenos.
Where do you get the idea the Legion used Xenos technology "extensively"?

Well 1d4chan says the Spear that Alpharius uses is Necron in nature but I haven't seen any fluff to actually support it.

"Will use <thing> for advantage" is in no way mutually exclusive with "Disdain for <thing>. It's kind of a hallmark of precisely the overblown themes of hubris and drama that the Heresy is outright built on. Its just the presentation has shifted from Homeric to Shakespearean over time.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well 1d4chan says the Spear that Alpharius uses is Necron in nature but I haven't seen any fluff to actually support it.

Lex says it's rumoured to be Xenos and that it supposedly pre-dates the rise of the Aeldari. But as with all things Alpha Legion, it's a rumour.
But one Primarch using one rumoured Xenos weapon does not mean the Legion "extensively" uses Xenos technology. It would be like saying that the Ultramarines extensively use Chaos weaponry because the Gauntlets of Ultramar were taken from a Chaos champion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Catulle wrote:
"Will use <thing> for advantage" is in no way mutually exclusive with "Disdain for <thing>. It's kind of a hallmark of precisely the overblown themes of hubris and drama that the Heresy is outright built on. Its just the presentation has shifted from Homeric to Shakespearean over time.

Exactly. The Imperium arms Callidus Assassins with adapted C'tan weaponry and the Deathwatch makes extensive use of Xenos artefacts and weapons for the explicit purpose of exterminating Xenos.

 Gert wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I see what you are saying but there’s no reason that one if the twins can’t be behind that or a secret partner within the tau leadership. Also I think the fact that Tau take in other races in clouding humans is possibly a clue as it could be a way of the creating a group of humans to save from Choas devouring the imperium

There's no reason to suggest that the Alpha Legion has anything to do with the T'au. They were still indoctrinated into Imperial culture and as a result, are massively Xenophobic. So the idea that either of the Primarchs would deliberately shape the evolution of a Xenos species to keep the Imperium from being destroyed is just plain wrong. It also took four thousand years of T'au expansion before they even reached the borders of the Imperium and that was only in 700.M41.

The T'au ally with other races because they aren't Xenophobic. The T'au'va promotes cooperation and understanding which is a tenet the T'au take to other species when they are encountered. The whole point of the T'au is that there is a faction in 40k where war isn't the primary use of expansion and where people within the Empire live relatively happy lives, even compared to modern standards.

No I just thought it was a cool idea. I don’t see why alpharius couldn’t come round to the idea of working with xenos to fulfil his master plan. As I understand it Tau we’re discovered by the imperium and they were a Bronze Age type civilisation and considered not a threat. The imperial agent that surveyed them was going to order an extermination but got distracted as he thought they were so unimportant. A thousand years later these guys are operating tech as good as the imperiums. There must have been some outside intervention. And the alpha legion have agents in the highest part of the imperium so I’m sure they are downloading all of their confidential data.

mrFickle wrote:
No I just thought it was a cool idea. I don’t see why alpharius couldn’t come round to the idea of working with xenos to fulfil his master plan.

The Cabal's plan was for humanity to wipe itself out through constant civil conflict thereby starving the Chaos Gods of a food source. Even Eldrad changed his tune and decided that genocide wasn't actually the way to beat Chaos. How do the T'au allow for this plan when they actively don't eradicate mankind?

As I understand it Tau we’re discovered by the imperium and they were a Bronze Age type civilisation and considered not a threat. The imperial agent that surveyed them was going to order an extermination but got distracted as he thought they were so unimportant. A thousand years later these guys are operating tech as good as the imperiums. There must have been some outside intervention. And the alpha legion have agents in the highest part of the imperium so I’m sure they are downloading all of their confidential data.

A Mechanicus Explorator vessel did discover the world of T'au and had it marked for cleansing and resettlement but the Navy fleet was destroyed by a Warp Storm. It was six thousand years before the Imperium made contact with the T'au species now well into a period of technological advancement. Just for reference humanity's Bronze Age was 5322 years ago and in that time the entire planet has never been united. With the entire T'au species united under one system, it's not surprising that it took them a little over a Millenium to establish the eight Septs and begin assimilating alien species.
Their tech is also not as good as the Imperium's, it's just consolidated and concentrated a lot better.
Alpharius would have to have a complete personality switch in order to consider the T'au as an alternative to the Imperium. He didn't like Xenos and he didn't cooperate with Xenos, with the only exception being the Cabal.

I don't think it's out of the question for Alpharius to cooperate with xenos to further his goals. I doubt his end game involves letting the tau rule the galaxy, but I imagine he'd enjoy having access to the tau as a tool.

That said, I think it would be kind of cringe to ascribe the technological accomplishments of the tau to some human ubermensch wandering over and "uplifting" them. Kind of has the same vibes as saying aliens must have built the pyramids because, "there's no way ancient Egyptians could have been smart enough to pull it off."

It's certainly possible that Alpharius is alive, but as an AL fan, I would much prefer it if both him and Omegon were dead. Specifically, I would much prefer it if they were both dead, and most if not all of the Alpha Legion thought otherwise.

One of the AL's two major flaws is their tendency to overcomplicate what could otherwise be simple situations and interactions. The best and most entertaining way to illustrate that failing, I would argue, is to create a situation where the only reason why the legion is so fractured in the first place is because they assume that their Primarchs are both alive and secretly guiding them towards an inscrutable "master plan" which would result in their control over the galaxy. Bonus points if there really is a failsafe plan designed by Alpharius/Omegon for after their death, but it's convoluted to the extent that the legion itself finds it incomprehensible.

Having the Alpha Legion be following some secret plan set out by their Primarch (who was really alive the entire time) is, frankly, a lot less interesting than establishing that the legion known for having everything under control has in fact spent thousands of years desperately scrabbling for a coherent game plan.

Stories, legends, beliefs, and far more esoteric things become reality in the Warp. When someone claims to be Alpharius, it is the default assumption that individual is not; after all, the chances of it actually being him are slim even during the era in which he was active.

What if that very concept gained solidity in the warp, and Omegon is the embodiment of the concept that Alpharius is not Alpharius? What if Omegon always exists in the warp because the concept of Alpharius pulling strings in the background becomes real in the warp? What if this idea has substance in realspace because of actions the Alpha legion has yet to take? What if the Alpha legion know their Primarch is dead but follow instructions of his believed-soul from the warp in an effort to resurrect him, only to conjure Omegon into being in the past?

I'm just asking the logical questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flipsiders wrote:
It's certainly possible that Alpharius is alive, but as an AL fan, I would much prefer it if both him and Omegon were dead. Specifically, I would much prefer it if they were both dead, and most if not all of the Alpha Legion thought otherwise.

One of the AL's two major flaws is their tendency to overcomplicate what could otherwise be simple situations and interactions. The best and most entertaining way to illustrate that failing, I would argue, is to create a situation where the only reason why the legion is so fractured in the first place is because they assume that their Primarchs are both alive and secretly guiding them towards an inscrutable "master plan" which would result in their control over the galaxy. Bonus points if there really is a failsafe plan designed by Alpharius/Omegon for after their death, but it's convoluted to the extent that the legion itself finds it incomprehensible.

Having the Alpha Legion be following some secret plan set out by their Primarch (who was really alive the entire time) is, frankly, a lot less interesting than establishing that the legion known for having everything under control has in fact spent thousands of years desperately scrabbling for a coherent game plan.

My above sarcasm aside, this would be brilliant.

There's probably a fascinating psychology PhD thesis waiting for someone in exploring the link between people's need for cognitive closure and whether they love or hate the Alpha Legion...

If you look at Alpha Legion background in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it describes how they started waging their own campaign and setting their own military objectives without real reference to what others were doing.

Their "fall" may take a different form than just submitting directly to Chaos in general or one god in particular. They may very well still think they are fighting for a goal, but they may be deceiving themselves. They may set military objectives as if they were still fighting some organized campaign, but the real objective may simply be to cause random mayhem. They may have lost their true purpose without knowing it.

For example, they may justify raiding and blowing up Imperial supply depots or capturing interstellar transports as disrupting the Imperium's supply lines, but their true effect on the overall logistical situation may be minor, insignificant or irrelevant (if for example the sector has surplus capacity or is not actively engaged in war). In reality, it may just be piracy under a different name, even if they don't themselves believe it to be such.

Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding to benefit themselves.

With their decentralized structure, it may also be a situation of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Instead of any coherent plan, they might just be individual units acting like any other warband, though in this case they might still be convinced they are serving some higher purpose.

 Gert wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
The alpha primarchs were very accepting of xenos. They worked with the cabal and used xeno tech extensively.

Just because Alpharius seemed to work with the Cabal, doesn't erase the fact the Alpha Legion exterminated a lot of Xenos in their time including during the Rangdan Xenocides. Omegon it seemed was very much against working with the Cabal and ordered the operation that destroyed the Warp relay station gifted to Alpharius by the Cabal.
So no, the Primarchs were not accepting of Xenos.
Where do you get the idea the Legion used Xenos technology "extensively"?

Venom spheres, the pale sphere, some of their production technology, and the fact that it’s literally stated in black books that they’ll use xenos ships.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Venom spheres,

Rumoured to be Xenos tech but it's not like the Imperium doesn't have its fair share of biological weapons.

the pale sphere,

Again rumoured to be Xenos tech.

some of their production technology, and the fact that it’s literally stated in black books that they’ll use xenos ships.

That I will need some quotations for because I have never seen that before today.

Right now we're sitting on rumours and hearsay with regards to the Alpha Legion using Xenos tech but just so it's clear, using Xenos tech does not mean that the Legion cooperates with Xenos.
I have already mentioned both Calidus Assassins and the Deathwatch as examples of Imperial institutions that actively use Xenos based weaponry and the latter's entire existence is dedicated to eradicating Xenos.