Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What i would like to see?

Chaos daemons troops can be taken as troops for their respective Occult CSM factions

Flamers for tsons
Plague barers and nurglings for DG
Daemonetts for Emp children
Blood letters for WE.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Basic demons should be more powerful (and cost more points). Space Marines should be outmatched 1v1 vs Bloodletters in CC. They're supposed to be terrifying horrors from the immaterium, not color-coded villains for Astartes to bop.

Yay for power creep!

I mean, I completely agree as a Daemons player. A Daemonette can outmatch a space marine in contests of speed and skill, and a bloodletter can outmatch a space marine in contests of strength and stamina. But who are we kidding? They will probably stay GEQish rather than MEQish.

Bloodletters and daemonettes are basically ork boyz and drukhari wyches respectively, so appropriate comparisons should be made with those two units in mind, they have nothing to do with SM. They're both 1W T-shirt save models while SM are heavy armored infantries, not to mention that those daemons are melee only unlike the SM dudes who fire quality shooting even with troops.

Eventually if GW decides to go full power creep on them they could end up close to harlequin troupes in stats, definitely nothing like SM though.

I hope "taste the rainbow" Chaos Undivided and god specific armies can work reasonably well with whatever book they come up with.
Restricting stuff to mono-God means you have a very small model range to work with, but you'd hope Mono-God could still work for people who want themed forces.

Belakor should by the leader of chaos demons, of course there are characters, be he should be the RG of demons. The codex should be designed to take a chaos undivided army with some interesting quirks maybe like the old ork animosity rules.

You can take an army for a single god with some special rules and benefits but the aim should be a competitive undivided army

I'm happy af with the current range. I only want better synergy lore and rulewise with other codexes, cool lore, and all the four gods represented on the cover

 Blackie wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Basic demons should be more powerful (and cost more points). Space Marines should be outmatched 1v1 vs Bloodletters in CC. They're supposed to be terrifying horrors from the immaterium, not color-coded villains for Astartes to bop.

Yay for power creep!

I mean, I completely agree as a Daemons player. A Daemonette can outmatch a space marine in contests of speed and skill, and a bloodletter can outmatch a space marine in contests of strength and stamina. But who are we kidding? They will probably stay GEQish rather than MEQish.

Bloodletters and daemonettes are basically ork boyz and drukhari wyches respectively, so appropriate comparisons should be made with those two units in mind, they have nothing to do with SM. They're both 1W T-shirt save models while SM are heavy armored infantries, not to mention that those daemons are melee only unlike the SM dudes who fire quality shooting even with troops.

Eventually if GW decides to go full power creep on them they could end up close to harlequin troupes in stats, definitely nothing like SM though.

maybe now but bloodletters (and pretty much all of korne) used to be meqs. bloodletters were s4/t4 3+ save with a power sword, pretty much all korne used to have a 3+ armor save from their brass armor stuff. if anything daemonettes used to be genestealer equivalents back when rending was terrifying

In 30k, Daemonettes are T5 with 2 wounds for turns one and 2, T4 for turns 3 and 4, and T3 till the end of the game.

And Marines still only have one wound.

This is because the Daemons are flavored as Lovecraftian horrors from beyond space and time in that game, rather than Tyranids-with-emotions.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In 30k, Daemonettes are T5 with 2 wounds for turns one and 2, T4 for turns 3 and 4, and T3 till the end of the game.

And Marines still only have one wound.

This is because the Daemons are flavored as Lovecraftian horrors from beyond space and time in that game, rather than Tyranids-with-emotions.

They're also not specifically daemonettes iirc but undefined ruinstorm daemons?

In the long term I'd like to see Chaos Daemons being redone from the ground up.
In the short term I hope nothing in the original post happens. The game is too lethal, AP has gotten out of control with kitchen scissors doubling damage against Lychguard. And for Warp's sake no Combat Doctrines.

The only thing I could agree to is changing lesser daemon horde rules from 20+ to 11+ to fit with the current Blast rule and then the inarguable stuff like making sure datasheets with the same name have similar rules (Spawn/Daemon Princes).

JakeSiren wrote:
I would like to see a reduction of book work needed to keep track of reserve points. Keeping track of how many points you spent on splitting Horrors, summoning units, and creating Chaos Spawn can get quite burdensome. In addition, it requires a high level of trust that you or your opponent isn't fudging the points.

That's really good criticism of the mechanic, I would just like to point out that lists with some amount of summoning have gotten top 4s at Grand Tournaments, so the mechanic could probably be very effective if units could move and summon more than 9" away. But that wouldn't solve the book keeping. Another issue is the lack of cost in PL games, I wouldn't play against that unless my opponent was new and I just wanted to give them an easy win, something I have offered to do once when my opponent didn't know about summoning costs in pts games. I don't think GW has ever found a good way to handle summoning, using psychic powers was definitely a failure IMO and I do think deep strike can cover a lot of the space needed for Daemons to feel like they are jumping out of the warp and that's a relatively easy mechanic to balance compared to the ability to potentially summon any unit from your codex (assuming that they were all viable counters to a situation).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In 30k, Daemonettes are T5 with 2 wounds for turns one and 2, T4 for turns 3 and 4, and T3 till the end of the game.

And Marines still only have one wound.

This is because the Daemons are flavored as Lovecraftian horrors from beyond space and time in that game, rather than Tyranids-with-emotions.

It cheapens the setting to have them not be scary. There's a reason why the GK's exist - because demons represent a significant challenge to even most Space Marines.

Dudeface wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In 30k, Daemonettes are T5 with 2 wounds for turns one and 2, T4 for turns 3 and 4, and T3 till the end of the game.

And Marines still only have one wound.

This is because the Daemons are flavored as Lovecraftian horrors from beyond space and time in that game, rather than Tyranids-with-emotions.

They're also not specifically daemonettes iirc but undefined ruinstorm daemons?

Yes, that is the general profile for Ruinstorm Lesser Daemons. They become "god-ified" by buying (with extra points) upgrades on top of that profile, e.g.

Khorne with 3+ armor and Deny the Witch
Slaanesh with Soporific Musk (a neat ability I won't get into here)
Tzeench becomes psykers
Malal gets Preferred Enemy (Daemons)
Nurgle gets Touch of Rust I think? I don't remember.
Etc.

I'd guess Daemons will end up as detachments like Harleys where you can include them without breaking your army bonuses. You will probably still be able to make an entire army out of them, but the detachment solution keeps the summoned allies flavor without the janky mechanics.

Echoing the desire to field daemons alongside chaos marines again. I'd even be okay with just rolling the entire faction into the CSM book, tbh. Do all the daemon and CSM datasheets combined even match loyalist marines for individual datasheets?

If we're not doing that, then I kind of like the idea of going whole hog with flavorful army-wide doctrine slot abilities. Like, if you're playing mono-Nurgle, you should get a mechanic that makes the entire battlefield feel like it's slimy and buzzing with flies. If you're playing Tzeentch, you should be able to perform some massive magic ritual that spews out magical attacks based on how many units perform psychic actions to fuel it. If you're Khorne, you should get something Blood Tithe-y. If you're Slaanesh, maybe you get wandering clouds of magical haze that can hide your units or debuff the enemy as their senses are overloaded or something. Or maybe you can perform a "Torment" action when you slay an enemy in close combat that buffs Slaaneshi daemons around you.

And then multi-god armies can have access to more generic themes like ye olde warp storm type effects. Or maybe some sort of "phase into reality" type rule that makes you hard to hurt early on (because you're still insubstantial) and more lethal as the game goes on (because you're manifesting more fully like the evil spirit in a horror movie). Essentially what drbored pitched on the first page.

Yeah, I don't see any reason not to fold them into a broader Chaos Codex, much like happened with the Harlequins. If people still want to play pure Daemons, they can, but to me it just feels a bit weird to cordon them off as an entirely separate thing.

As per what Wyldhunt said above, I'd like to see mono-faction bonuses too, but additionally bring back the old antagonism between Khorne/Slaanesh and Tzeentch/Nurgle, so there are at the very least some drawbacks to mixing in those specific instances.

One book for each chaos god and one book for chaos undivided.

More variety within each chaos faction. Chaos very ironically is extremely homogeneous. Every bloodletter looks the same, acts the same, has the same approach, is the same as every other bloodletter. Same for all the other daemons, chaos spawn, and so on. At least the csm legions have some different outlooks.

Models with more distinct silhouettes and less fuzzy branching sprawling pieces all around them.

A few xeno units fallen to chaos. Eldar that ran to Nurgle to escape Slaanesh, Orks that bound themselves to a Bloodthirster, a chaos spawn that was once a tyranid bioform who had an unfortunate encounter with some chaotic sorcerer.

Granted none of that will happen but it'd be nice.

Demon orks would be more of an orks codex thing if they were to happen. Chaos infected orks are immediately killed by the rest of the warband for being gits, or they’re a weirdboy which results in the ork just trapping the demon in their head and nothing happening.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
What i would like to see?

Chaos daemons troops can be taken as troops for their respective Occult CSM factions

Flamers for tsons
Plague barers and nurglings for DG
Daemonetts for Emp children
Blood letters for WE.

Flamers arent troops.

Otherwise yeah, that would be amazing

I think when there is an obvious problem (or no problem) and a simple solution GW has a very poor track record. But tricky problems that need a creative solution? GW tends to do quite well, relatively speaking. So I am cautiously optimistic.

I can only speak by my experience as playing Mono-Khorne for the past 4 years (the tears I've shed...):

I am perfectly fine with mono-god armies being extremely focused, this makes them interesting — and help them to not overlap with their CSM counterparts. I don't want my Mono-Khorne to feel like a reskineed World Eaters. Being a Space Marine or a Daemon should offer a different perspective on the same Khorne, a similar gameplay but still unique.

First, let's focus on the current main tenets of each: Khorne is fighty; Slaanesh is fast; Nurgle is resilient; and, Tzeetch is shooty and magicky. Those characteristics should be present on both their CSM and their Daemon counterparts. It gives synergy if they soup, and also grounds their gameplay.

Now we go back to the differences. Lore-wise CSM are (or were) an organized expert military force of humans, master of tactical with combined arms, using multiple types of weapons, varied units and machines of war. Daemons are not that, they are emotions made material, they are distortions of reality — so I would focus their rules into shenanigans that go beyond their units, affecting the board and the context of the match — closer to exclusive mechanics (like the Cabal Points of the Thousand Sons). I won't cover unit points, but here are suggestions:

For all
They are all HQ heavy armies, with not a lot of options in other unit types. Makes all Herald units as single named units that don't take HQ slots.

Khorne.
Lean on their AoS, Blades of Khorne counterpart — to some extent they could be lifted off directly. Blood Tithe as a mechanic makes sense, the more you kill, more powerful you get and you can push game changing powers if you manage to rack up multiple kills in a round. I would even go further and think that even enemy kills should increase Blood Tithe (at least some), as Khorne profits from any violence. This might enemies of Khorne to try to manage the damage done, to avoid hyper-buffing them and objective completion.

Nurgle.
Make the disease, death and decay the pillar. Board-wide debuffs with different diseases that affect all units. Think the Tides of the Warp from GK, but focused on debuffing — or like the Astartes Doctrines, but about debuffing enemies. They could be randomly rolled each turn, or being chosen ranging from debuffs to shoot and melee, increase damage taken, or randomly burst of Mortal Wounds everywhere.

Slaanesh.
Keep the fast, and explore something along "stealing" resources from rolls, stats, movements to represent the excess taking over — have enemy units being exhausted on a round (they have to skip one of the phases (Move, Shoot, Charge) — and make them chew through any infantry when they attack first. Khorne might be the fighty army, but Slaanesh should be one that extrapolates the benefit of being the first one to strike.

Tzeench.
Here we can go as crazy as possible, fighting a mono-tzeench army should be a Psychic phase that you want to avoid going into it. Not because of mortal wounds, or buffing units to HeroHammer — this is Thousand Sons speciality. Mono-Tzeench, should be all about unpredicatability: disable psychic powers, force them to use the power you want, remove dice from their rolls, mirror the cast of an offensive spell against you to hit another allied unit.

Overall, I just think Daemons need some more love to be more fun.

It would be cool if they were more psychological, like doing stuff to inflict combat attrition and whatnot without just being rubber monsters.