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I kind of feel in practice you'd clear the Termagaunt bubble wrap and then charge the Tervigon with something spiky in close combat. Its pointed aggressively - but its not like Tyranids are winning on the back of Tervigons. (Or at least, not yet).

Its sort of a similar thought on warriors. I think the deathspitter/bonesword combo for 25 points is clearly too cheap when compared with almost every other troop type in the game. But until someone goes "you know what, screw it, here's my bug-City list with 60ish~ warriors" I don't think GW are going to pick up on it. They do also die (Leviathan transhuman aside) fairly efficiently to a lot of the damage 3 guns GW have been putting in codexes.

ERJAK wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.

If GW wasn't completely incompetent with rules writing, this stuff wouldn't happen. This type of thing is the 'well it's your fault for dressing like that' of the wargaming world.

fething YIKES. Whatever point you're trying to make here, I think drawing any sort of equivalence between "I don't like the rules in the toy spacemen game" and actual sexual harrasment/assault is pretty messed up. Please be a little more considerate in future.

Tyel wrote:
I kind of feel in practice you'd clear the Termagaunt bubble wrap and then charge the Tervigon with something spiky in close combat. Its pointed aggressively - but its not like Tyranids are winning on the back of Tervigons. (Or at least, not yet).

Its sort of a similar thought on warriors. I think the deathspitter/bonesword combo for 25 points is clearly too cheap when compared with almost every other troop type in the game. But until someone goes "you know what, screw it, here's my bug-City list with 60ish~ warriors" I don't think GW are going to pick up on it. They do also die (Leviathan transhuman aside) fairly efficiently to a lot of the damage 3 guns GW have been putting in codexes.

Warriors do have a presence in the tournament lists, usually as minimum troop tax unit, but a few lists do have a few large warriors broods.

I don't think I have seen a tournament list with a Tervigon.

Tyranid FAQ is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MlX8DsXkD19YhnUE.pdf

Some key points:

No double shooty Hive Tyrant as expected
Overrun can't be used in engagement range Overrun removed the broken "instead of consolidation" wording
Encircle is used at the end of the movement phase
Hive Nexus is now CORE only - no unlocking Maleceptor psychic actions
Power of the Hive Mind is now CHARACTER only, can't be used for an extra Maleceptor cast
Maleceptor's psychic action counts as a cast when under it's own imperative
Effectively you now get up to two psychic overloads per turn, not 3-4

So sad for all the casuals who hadn't gotten their chance to do 40 mortal wounds with a Maleceptor.


edit: does this direct reduction of the obscene power of the Maleceptor count as a nerf to the Maleceptor or a nerf to the combo? I'm personally unclear on the difference but hey.

Has anyone or event ever tried saying something along the lines of: This codex is too new, in order to create a more fun and competitive environment, we will only be allowing this faction to use "pre-codex rules and costs"? Give the new faction time to breath and open it's eyes before smothering it. Also, unleashing it onto a competive scene that has likely not played against it or had time to functionally alter it's lists is just BEGGING for skewed results and snap nerfs.

We shouldn't be using fresh week old codexes, in competitive events imho. There needs to be a 1-2 month period of competitive play testing or something. Hell, even 2 weeks. Better that they don't get to play the new rules, then they have to go through all the trouble of getting to top 8 and having it all be the exact same book/sub faction.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone or event ever tried saying something along the lines of: This codex is too new, in order to create a more fun and competitive environment, we will only be allowing this faction to use "pre-codex rules and costs"?

IIRC one of the big name groups had a poll asking if they should wait until the 2-week FAQs were released, and it was something like 95% no. (I'll see if I can find it...)

Dudeface wrote:


What you mean to say is "you need to have bolter guys anyway so they might as well fire at the gaunts" if 2 tac squads don't kill 15 gaunts which are then reinforced by the tervigon anyway it's a bit of a futile effort. It's all maths and hypotheticals which don't really translate into real world games anyway usually to be honest.

Edit: also shoota boyz are pretty bad at dealing with anything, that's just not a fair comparison for anyone.

How big tac squads? 2x5 shouldn't remove 15 gaunts in one go. 2x10 and we are talking

It's kind of a chicken and egg sort of situation. If people can't use a new codex then there can't be any feedback to cause a FAQ to be written.

EDIT

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone or event ever tried saying something along the lines of: This codex is too new, in order to create a more fun and competitive environment, we will only be allowing this faction to use "pre-codex rules and costs"? Give the new faction time to breath and open it's eyes before smothering it. Also, unleashing it onto a competive scene that has likely not played against it or had time to functionally alter it's lists is just BEGGING for skewed results and snap nerfs.

We shouldn't be using fresh week old codexes, in competitive events imho. There needs to be a 1-2 month period of competitive play testing or something. Hell, even 2 weeks. Better that they don't get to play the new rules, then they have to go through all the trouble of getting to top 8 and having it all be the exact same book/sub faction.

So you wait month, then same result as book is still same after month

tneva82 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


What you mean to say is "you need to have bolter guys anyway so they might as well fire at the gaunts" if 2 tac squads don't kill 15 gaunts which are then reinforced by the tervigon anyway it's a bit of a futile effort. It's all maths and hypotheticals which don't really translate into real world games anyway usually to be honest.

Edit: also shoota boyz are pretty bad at dealing with anything, that's just not a fair comparison for anyone.

How big tac squads? 2x5 shouldn't remove 15 gaunts in one go. 2x10 and we are talking

It takes 25 tac marines to get the 50 bolter rounds requested. This does not equate to bolters being good termagant killers in this scenario though, as above the ability to take the hits from the gaunts and then out punch them as well makes the difference however.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone or event ever tried saying something along the lines of: This codex is too new, in order to create a more fun and competitive environment, we will only be allowing this faction to use "pre-codex rules and costs"? Give the new faction time to breath and open it's eyes before smothering it. Also, unleashing it onto a competive scene that has likely not played against it or had time to functionally alter it's lists is just BEGGING for skewed results and snap nerfs.

We shouldn't be using fresh week old codexes, in competitive events imho. There needs to be a 1-2 month period of competitive play testing or something. Hell, even 2 weeks. Better that they don't get to play the new rules, then they have to go through all the trouble of getting to top 8 and having it all be the exact same book/sub faction.

I seem to remember hearing from several AoS tournaments that they didn't allow a book until it had its faq in the past, donno if that is still a thing in some places.

But yes, while the general community is probably not in favour of it I wouldn't mind a new codex not being allowed until the initial faq was released.
And its not like we needed tournaments to show that double Heavy weapon Tyrants or all the psychic stuff stacked on a Maleceptor was broken.

Gaunts and Gants are fine in my opinion.

Intercessor auto-bolt rifles tear them a new one, and they are also a Troops choice, and if their rifle don't take care of them, their weight of melee attacks certainly can. If a player wants to pretend Primaris aren't options, that's on them to make their army's shortcomings. I don't use any space marine supplement for my Primaris only army, and I don't lament that I have hobbled my army is two ways. I improvise, adapt, overcome with what I do have.

CSM also have it pretty good vs. gants/gaunts currently at 12ppm with Malicious Volleys. Even chainswords and pistols with Hateful Assault and Death to the False Emperor are going to eviscerate gants/guants.

Every Tyranid game I played posted Crusher Stampede, I've never come close to having a problem with their smaller bugs. In fact, I think it is difficult to have a bad game when a 'nid player brings swarms of them. Because win or lose, their opponent feels like a baller by the sheer amount of carnage they did to the 'nid army. Bring on their uncounted numbers!

 xttz wrote:
Tyranid FAQ is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MlX8DsXkD19YhnUE.pdf

Some key points:

No double shooty Hive Tyrant as expected
Overrun can't be used in engagement range
Encircle is used at the end of the movement phase
Hive Nexus is now CORE only - no unlocking Maleceptor psychic actions
Power of the Hive Mind is now CHARACTER only, can't be used for an extra Maleceptor cast
Maleceptor's psychic action counts as a cast when under it's own imperative
Effectively you now get up to two psychic overloads per turn, not 3-4

This is a really good FAQ, IMO. They knocked out all the stupid stuff like the double VC Hive Tyrant, they nerfed the BS from the Maleceptor/Hive Nexus without making it unusable, and Encircle the Prey is at least somewhat defanged. I bet Nids will still do really well in tournaments but this is about as good of a balance pass as you could expect if you take points off the table (yeah the Harpy needs to go up in points.)

Maybe my friends will actually play me and my decidedly middle-of-the-road Nids lists now

Its a good "woops, we didn't think this through" response.

Not sure its going to dramatically alter Tyranid win% for the reasons said - but it might push them down towards 60%, and may open up more variety in competitive Tyranid list building.

LOL no doubling up on a weapon for Tyrants. What's with GW and garbage looking "one of each weapon" loadouts?

 xttz wrote:
Tyranid FAQ is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MlX8DsXkD19YhnUE.pdf

Some key points:

No double shooty Hive Tyrant as expected
Overrun can't be used in engagement range
Encircle is used at the end of the movement phase
Hive Nexus is now CORE only - no unlocking Maleceptor psychic actions
Power of the Hive Mind is now CHARACTER only, can't be used for an extra Maleceptor cast
Maleceptor's psychic action counts as a cast when under it's own imperative
Effectively you now get up to two psychic overloads per turn, not 3-4

And Synapse is now an (Aura). Sweet, we can shut it down. Vox Scream!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

We shouldn't be using fresh week old codexes, in competitive events imho. There needs to be a 1-2 month period of competitive play testing or something. Hell, even 2 weeks. Better that they don't get to play the new rules, then they have to go through all the trouble of getting to top 8 and having it all be the exact same book/sub faction.

But who's gonna do that 1-2 month period of competitive play testing? GW stuff? In an ideal world yes.

Otherwise I'm perfectly fine with GTs being the beta testers. This way in most of the real world metas the top lists that are nerfed ASAP never show up. It's thanks to allowing new codexes to GTs that voidweavers have been nerfed pretty soon so very few people actually bullied their opponents by bringing tons of those undercosted skimmers.

Now tyranids need (needed?) nerfs soon, if that means that they get to dominate a couple of GTs to make GW aware of their power I'll take it.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
LOL no doubling up on a weapon for Tyrants. What's with GW and garbage looking "one of each weapon" loadouts?

Its the old "only one of each in the box, so you can only have one of each" thing.

Also, double cannon tyrants look really really silly.

beast_gts wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone or event ever tried saying something along the lines of: This codex is too new, in order to create a more fun and competitive environment, we will only be allowing this faction to use "pre-codex rules and costs"?

IIRC one of the big name groups had a poll asking if they should wait until the 2-week FAQs were released, and it was something like 95% no. (I'll see if I can find it...)

Hard no. People should be able to use their book even if GW screws it up. Also the FAQs are a month behind now instead of two weeks.

 xttz wrote:
Tyranid FAQ is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MlX8DsXkD19YhnUE.pdf

Some key points:

No double shooty Hive Tyrant as expected
Overrun can't be used in engagement range
Encircle is used at the end of the movement phase
Hive Nexus is now CORE only - no unlocking Maleceptor psychic actions
Power of the Hive Mind is now CHARACTER only, can't be used for an extra Maleceptor cast
Maleceptor's psychic action counts as a cast when under it's own imperative
Effectively you now get up to two psychic overloads per turn, not 3-4

You can still have a hive tyrant with shardgullet and heavy venom cannon. Maleceptor nerf is good, much needed.

Not really. The model doesn't come with two venom cannons.

 p5freak wrote:
You can still have a hive tyrant with shardgullet and heavy venom cannon. Maleceptor nerf is good, much needed.

No you can't...unless you're suggesting you buy a piece of wargear then upgrade it then go back to buy a second piece of wargear.

Replace bonesword with heavy venom cannon. Replace heavy venom cannon with shardgullet. Replace monstrous scything talons with heavy venom cannon. I dont have more than 1 heavy venom cannon, because shardgullet is a different weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nomeny wrote:
Not really. The model doesn't come with two venom cannons.

WYSIWYG is not a rule. If you really want two HVC 3D print it, or buy it from a bits dealer.

 Blackie wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

We shouldn't be using fresh week old codexes, in competitive events imho. There needs to be a 1-2 month period of competitive play testing or something. Hell, even 2 weeks. Better that they don't get to play the new rules, then they have to go through all the trouble of getting to top 8 and having it all be the exact same book/sub faction.

But who's gonna do that 1-2 month period of competitive play testing? GW stuff? In an ideal world yes.

Otherwise I'm perfectly fine with GTs being the beta testers. This way in most of the real world metas the top lists that are nerfed ASAP never show up. It's thanks to allowing new codexes to GTs that voidweavers have been nerfed pretty soon so very few people actually bullied their opponents by bringing tons of those undercosted skimmers.

Now tyranids need (needed?) nerfs soon, if that means that they get to dominate a couple of GTs to make GW aware of their power I'll take it.

Yeah, this is the thing – as soon as the book's out there, and particularly in the hands of the sort of people who have a vested interest in breaking things in completely unintended ways, there's a level of computation power that would take years for any combination of writers/playtesters to arrive at.

The problem, in my view, isn't that this stuff slips through the net from time to time (although there are some obvious proofreading howlers which in my view are less forgivable than not having been able to test every single possible combination of all the moving parts at play) but rather that GW are treating the books as premium collectors' items (and pricing them accordingly), rather than the ephemeral documents they are. Personally, I like books as my hobby time is my non-screen time, but the disparity between the way the books are sold/presented and their actual usable lifespan is the aspect that bugs me the most. And that's before we even get to the environmental/sustainability aspect of creating enormous hardback books with a useful lifespan of sometimes little more than a year.

Got married since the codex came out, so I'm a little sad I could only play a few games before my physical codex is now... outdated. Its the most obnoxious feeling in the world when you cant even trust your brand new book anymore.

That said nothing they changed were things I was doing anyway. I should be ecstatic even with these changes Tyranids are still on top... but eh. I'll probably just wait for a new edition at this point. It's not actually fun playing against armies not up to date. I learned that quick.

Looks like GW's new sales model is in full effect.

Step 1. Make OP AF datasheets for models whose sales are low.
Step 2. Wait for the meta chasers to buy up those models.
Step 3. After enough models have sold, use FAQ's and the new "Balance" Data slate to reign them in.

 p5freak wrote:
Replace bonesword with heavy venom cannon. Replace heavy venom cannon with shardgullet. Replace monstrous scything talons with heavy venom cannon. I dont have more than 1 heavy venom cannon, because shardgullet is a different weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nomeny wrote:
Not really. The model doesn't come with two venom cannons.

WYSIWYG is not a rule. If you really want two HVC 3D print it, or buy it from a bits dealer.

You muster armies, THEN select a Warlord, and having a HIVE TENDRIL Warlord is what allows picking relics from the codex, so you can't go back and change your mustered army.

Good FAQ, don't see it really doing more than axing a couple percentage points off of nids win rate on its own. The book is insanely strong, will require points adjustments on a lot of things to give other armies a chance.