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When the creators of 40K were growing up and when they were making the game, there was an ongoing civil war in the UK because of discrimination against catholics. Catholics were not afforded full civil rights in part of the UK and were heavily discriminated against in employment and allocation of public services like public housing. The government of the UK supported this.

Modern UK is a lot better, but there are hardcore anti-catholic parties which can be quite influential, just look at the DUP being in effective coalition with the conservatives recently.

But I think it's not unreasonable to say that the choice of catholic aesthetics was at least in some small part an expression of those attitudes. A pretty benign one I have no problem with, but some UK posters seemed confused about the recent history of anticatholic sentiment in their country so I thought I'd mention it.

Hecaton wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Just_Breathe wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am ortodox.

Then recuse yourself from this discussion.
It's pretty clear you're on the defensive.

Yeah you don't get to decide that at all.

Karol's just objectively wrong though. Or at least, the viewpoint he's putting forth is objectively wrong.

That is a "But" being added to "Are you Catholic? Then go away". It is not the type of thing you want to add onto.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Just_Breathe wrote:

Karol wrote:
I am ortodox.

Then recuse yourself from this discussion.
It's pretty clear you're on the defensive.

Yeah you don't get to decide that at all.

Karol's just objectively wrong though. Or at least, the viewpoint he's putting forth is objectively wrong.

That is a "But" being added to "Are you Catholic? Then go away". It is not the type of thing you want to add onto.

I was trying to figure out why they were being this way.
I was wrong about the bias, but stumbled onto the real reason.
Sorry for the cringe commands.
I just don't like absolute denialists.
Please stop.

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
I don't go to parties. Don't have time for them attending sport school.

Wait you go to sport school? Is there any way you can make comparisons between your experiences there and playing 40k?

this got me lol

Deadnight wrote:

Dai wrote:
There is an inkling of anti catholic sentiment in the uk but i wouldnt say anymore so than any other protestant country and it is not something you would likely come across on any given day unless you were going around asking people.

I dunno. Respectfully that stance is a bit... naive.

To be fair, here in scotland/ni, you don't need to go much further than an old firm football match (celtic and rangers; one of the most hostile rivalries in sport) or get within stone throwing range of an Orange Order march/parade to get some truly disgusting anti catholic/sometimes anti-Irish sectarianism and chanting. It can be quite open and extremely blatant.

Genuinely, there's a reason I don't go into blue bars in Glasgow when a game is one. Not worth risking a Glasgow smile. :p

And Northern Ireland has a lot of people that will strongly express a bitter and extremely militant anti-catholic sentiment.30 years of the troubles and four hundred years of divisiveness prior to then doesn't go away any time soon.

Fair! As a Welshman it is very easy to forget that sort of stuff, thankfully despite all our many issues we do not have that divide


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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:
I don't go to parties. Don't have time for them attending sport school.

Wait you go to sport school? Is there any way you can make comparisons between your experiences there and playing 40k?

this got me lol

I feel a little bad hopefully he took as friendly banter, at the end of the day he is one of our own.

 Da Boss wrote:
When the creators of 40K were growing up and when they were making the game, there was an ongoing civil war in the UK because of discrimination against catholics. Catholics were not afforded full civil rights in part of the UK and were heavily discriminated against in employment and allocation of public services like public housing. The government of the UK supported this.

Modern UK is a lot better, but there are hardcore anti-catholic parties which can be quite influential, just look at the DUP being in effective coalition with the conservatives recently.

But I think it's not unreasonable to say that the choice of catholic aesthetics was at least in some small part an expression of those attitudes. A pretty benign one I have no problem with, but some UK posters seemed confused about the recent history of anticatholic sentiment in their country so I thought I'd mention it.

I don’t think it’s fair to equate the feelings and issues in the northern Irish communities, or those in Glasgow with the football rivalry, to the rest of the UK, the anti-catholic and opposite anti-Protestant feelings and hatred are very much specific to their locality and problems, not nationwide.

In the interwar years there was a definite anti catholic thing in the uk nation wide, but like many issue from earlier generations, like homophobia and racism, they are massively reduced. The uk, for the younger generations is a very secular society and I very much doubt most 20 year olds care about Catholicism let alone any religion.

Now the makers of GW may well have heard of the sectarianism prevailing in our grand parents time but outside of niche events like the old firm derby or the troubles in Northern Ireland (which were/are a whole different level but very local animosities) they are unlikely to have witnessed much of it themselves and kids now certainly don’t.


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Hecaton wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Just find your description of the UK as odd? Never sure how accurate the flags on dakka are to say where a poster is but I don’t recognise your description of the uk, as a lifelong resident I Find it at odds with what is actually happening here. But maybe you have different experiences from me so who knows.

I'm not saying that Brits hate the Spanish or anything. I'm just saying that there's some elements among the traditionalist wing of British culture that like to point to real and imagined historical excesses of the Spanish as part of their national founding myth, more or less. The same way there's elements of traditionalist US culture over here that still cleave to that "manifest destiny" idea.

The only real mention of the Spanish in school history classes is the armada and they never really get into why we were at war, much more about what happened and it’s after effects. Not much else is taught.

Now the French, that’s a nation we have history with and that is still taught. You ask any Brit which European country we have beef with and they will say the French every time.

I wouldn't say Brit, I'd say English or someone who is of Protestant descent.

Scots and the English are very different on most issues and especially religion. The English are generally a lot quieter about not liking Christianity that isn't their flavour but it's a serious problem in Scotland. People who aren't even particularly into religion will use sectarian slurs and not understand why that's a bad thing to do because it's so common to hear them among communities, especially in the West.
Even my parents have both had loads of experience with casual sectarianism in their lives and even I've had to ask people to stop casually using anti-Catholic slurs, as even though I'm not Catholic it disgusts me to hear people use the terms.
You find it the most in Scottish football where every single team is either Catholic or Protestant based, with Celtic and The Rangers being the big two that always without fail have fights and violence at their games and after.

 Gert wrote:
I wouldn't say Brit, I'd say English or someone who is of Protestant descent.

Indeed, in scotland the 'auld alliance' with france was a thing and its not the French the Scots generally have a problem with. :p

Fair points, it just goes to show that even in a tiny wee island like ours the differences between regions and areas makes it impossible to generalise.

Back on topic, if there was one, I think if you ask the original writers the satire was just generally aimed at the “church” rather than one particular church. A lot of the tropes from the early days were just taken from “high” church practices rather than orthodox or catholic or Anglican. There is a lot more cross over than many would like to admit.

I’m Anglican but have been to services that are very similar to catholic services I have attended. Matins and sung communion being classic examples. Do them in Latin and it’s all very similar to what we see in 40k.

Gert wrote:I wouldn't say Brit, I'd say English or someone who is of Protestant descent.

Scots and the English are very different on most issues and especially religion. The English are generally a lot quieter about not liking Christianity that isn't their flavour but it's a serious problem in Scotland. People who aren't even particularly into religion will use sectarian slurs and not understand why that's a bad thing to do because it's so common to hear them among communities, especially in the West.
Even my parents have both had loads of experience with casual sectarianism in their lives and even I've had to ask people to stop casually using anti-Catholic slurs, as even though I'm not Catholic it disgusts me to hear people use the terms.
You find it the most in Scottish football where every single team is either Catholic or Protestant based, with Celtic and The Rangers being the big two that always without fail have fights and violence at their games and after.

O/t because its kind of important.

Mate, my wife is a die-hard jambo (hearts supporter). I'm Irish (so technically catholic). I've had season tickets to the football because its her thing and I really dont mind. Youre qbsolutely right. The naked aggression and nastiness is vile. My wife never really considered it before me, now she abhors it and it really bothers her.

And yeah, back home we had the troubles. Not a day went by as a youf when the radio wasn't telling us about a Catholic or protestant bding killed or injured, or a place bombed or worse. Serious business like. Not a laughing matter. And here in scotkand ita bloody entertainment. Its vile.

Guys I worked with who are a bit older will tell you a lot about the blatant sectarianism that went on, even up to twenty or thirty years ago. You wouldn't get a job because of your surname or because you went to this school instead of that school (you know, catholic or protestant schools), never mind the football.

Andykp wrote:

I’m Anglican but have been to services that are very similar to catholic services I have attended. Matins and sung communion being classic examples. Do them in Latin and it’s all very similar to what we see in 40k.

I'm not surprised. I mean tbf 'anglican' is 'almost' catholic. 'Ol Henry kept everything except he swapped the pope for the arch Bishop of Canterbury when he had his reformation. The proper fire and brimstone protestant preachers like john knox were up this way, not in England. And incidentally they were the ones that settled Northern Ireland in the 17th century and we still have fallout from that to this day.

<returns to normal service>

Yeah I'd agree Andy that it's much, much better nowadays. But I'd also say I've experienced some comments based around people assuming I'm catholic (and I was raised catholic, for sure) in England. I think when you're not part of the group facing those sorts of comments you're probably not as aware of it?
But I definitely agree it's not a big deal at all and the UK is a pretty pluralistic place, and any anti-catholic sentiment in 40K is super minor and not important at all. I'm not a big fan of the Church myself.

The fact that 40K is such a mix of influences is part of what makes it cool.

40k is more "organised religion given too much power by the state is bad" rather than "religion bad".

Sgt. Cortez 805342 11374756 wrote:

Let me just say when I visit (catholic) churches from the middle ages or baroque era in Germany the Inspiration for 40K becomes extremely obvious. Even the Cult of Death sometimes becomes apparent. There's a church in Lübeck that could be right out of 40K, skulls, bones and skeletons everywhere.
I get the impression you're overthinking it, though.
You won't find White Scars in mongolia or Necrons in egypt, but it's pretty obvious that these factions are derived from (western) perceptions of a certain era of these cultures.

Am not sure what cathedral looks have to do with the structure of the imperial church though. That is a bit like saying that a dog is like an elephant, and I guess it kind of a is, because both have 4 legs. Plus look wise the priests themselfs look more then ortodox ones, then catholic ones.


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Dai 805342 11374734 wrote:
Wait you go to sport school? Is there any way you can make comparisons between your experiences there and playing 40k?

Yes. My main is wrestling and secondary is hammer throw. I don't think either are very similar. w40k is a game , a school is a school, sports or any other it prepares you either to got a sports collage, go pro and become a teacher/trainer yourself after university. Both require being focused and train on a regular basis, but that is the only similarity I can find.


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Hecaton 805342 11374773 wrote:

Seriously, if this hasn't made it clear that Karol is an elaborate troll account I don't know what will.

Removed - do NOT post personal info on a public forum.




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Hecaton wrote:


Karol's just objectively wrong though. Or at least, the viewpoint he's putting forth is objectively wrong.

Which one? Does the imperial church have a pope, a curia, do cardinals pick the pope, is the imperial church separate from the imperial goverment, does the imperial church not have the right to sentance someone to death, do the garb the imperial priest were look more catholic then ortodox, especialy grecocatholic?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That is a "But" being added to "Are you Catholic? Then go away". It is not the type of thing you want to add onto.

In the case of that particular poster, yeah it is.


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Andykp wrote:
The only real mention of the Spanish in school history classes is the armada and they never really get into why we were at war, much more about what happened and it’s after effects. Not much else is taught.

Now the French, that’s a nation we have history with and that is still taught. You ask any Brit which European country we have beef with and they will say the French every time.

Maybe. There's a reason the "Inquisition" sketch in Monty Python worked for a British audience; emphasis of the atrocities of the Spanish Inquisition was part of the cultural lexicon. For people in the US, oftentimes that sketch *is* their introduction to the Spanish Inquisition as a component of history.

Hecaton wrote:


Maybe. There's a reason the "Inquisition" sketch in Monty Python worked for a British audience; emphasis of the atrocities of the Spanish Inquisition was part of the cultural lexicon. For people in the US, oftentimes that sketch *is* their introduction to the Spanish Inquisition as a component of history.

Not sure thats a commentary on the BRITISH Hecaton

Karol wrote:

Which one? Does the imperial church have a pope,

Yeah he's called the Ecclesiarch.

Karol wrote:
a curia,

Probably. We don't know all the details. The Holy Synod and Synod Ministra seem to fill this role.

Karol wrote:
do cardinals pick the pope,

Yup.

Karol wrote:
is the imperial church separate from the imperial goverment,

No, and that makes it true to the Catholic church for a good portion of its history (especially pre-Westphalia).

Karol wrote:
does the imperial church not have the right to sentance someone to death,

It does, which makes it true to the Catholic church for a good portion of its history.

Karol wrote:
do the garb the imperial priest were look more catholic then ortodox, especialy grecocatholic?

Irrelevant, but for example the Fleur de Lys used by Sororitas is associated with Jeanne d'Arc, a prominent Catholic figure.


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BrianDavion wrote:

Not sure thats a commentary on the BRITISH Hecaton

Are you not following the conversation?

 kodos wrote:
it is more about what Pop Culture thinks the Christian Churches are (and that they are all the same) rather than what the catholic church actual is

Space Evangelicals would fit better

^This
40k is based on pop-culture interpretation of history pushed up to its extremes, not just history (although that does play a part, of course).
There will be errors. But that's ok, because 40k isn't historical fiction.

Karol wrote:


This is my schools page.

i know you're young, but don't post personal information online.