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Fergie0044 wrote: I doubt anyone thinks having more CP in round 4 and 5 is a balance for having less starting CP, but I'm all for this change. Having CP be a drip fed resource for both players will be much better than being on the receiving end of a 3 stratagem combo alpha strike on the first turn. Have you seen the new Knight codex with its 4CP all damage turns to MWs on a wound roll of 6 strat? Turn 1 saw my full squad of Blightlord terminators deleted by a single knight!
Won't that... still happen with these changes? Not familiar with the exact combo but if it only costs 4CP, they'll easily be able to have that much for turn 1.
Sure. If they don't have like 6+ warlord traits/relics. Knights like those.
Dendarien wrote: Yeah someone pushes 27 tyranid warriors with transhuman into the middle of the table.
Or someone pushes 14 chaos knight war dogs into the center of the table.
They don’t need cp or relics or traits to do that. Just good cost efficient data sheets.
Efficient datasheets are a separate problem from starting CP.
Plus not a lot of books seem to have a plethora of defensive stratagems so for someone on the defensive these CP changes are not going to change that much.
Personally I am in the wait and see mode before judging if this is all trash or not. A lot of matched play changes and potentially quite a few point changes mean the landscape is about to shift a lot.
Boyz -1
Gretchin same
Beast Boyz same
Wazbomm +10
Nobz -1
"few buggies" -5
"HQ got a 5-10 point cut across the board"
Source is apparently a guy with a PDF at a FLGS, so don't lose your sleep over these amazing buffs just yet.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Dendarien wrote: The CP changes will probably just make people more vulnerable to alpha strikes. You won’t have as much cp to defend yourself and you won’t be able to push back as hard against armies that pressure you.
This is my thinking. CP is currently much more necessary for defense then offense. Tau, Eldar, and Nids don't NEED strats to pick up entire enemy units, they mostly use them to hedge against unfavorable dice.
Anything they're shooting at NEEDS CP to have a reasonable expectation of survival. This whole change seems like it's pushing for even more aggressive alphastrike and it heavily favors already strong armies.
Boyz -1
Gretchin same
Beast Boyz same
Wazbomm +10
Nobz -1
"few buggies" -5
"HQ got a 5-10 point cut across the board"
Source is apparently a guy with a PDF at a FLGS, so don't lose your sleep over these amazing buffs just yet.
The sad part is that I can see GW doing this and patting themselves on the back and thinking that this is what Orks need. Given how out of touch they are for the Ork ruleset, I'm afraid that we may not even get away with this.
However, you can now take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment at no CP cost if it matches your WARLORD’s faction – great news for Knight players in Incursion games.
Well, that's a big load of . My LoWs will still cost me 1CP apiece, because "REASONS". Same for my dreadnoughts and "standard" tanks.
Depends on the exact wording. If it literally sets the CP cost of the detachment to 0, which is 6 + 1 from Martial Legacy, then it eats Martial Legacy. I guess that might depend on the order you're supposed to apply those (my bet is they won't consider that detail at all and we'll need an FAQ)
It'll probably be a Command Benefit. I.E.: "+3 Command Points if the unit in this detachment is from the same FACTION as your WARLORD". Similar to Patrols, Battalions, and the Supreme Command Detachment. So, Martial Legacy will still penalize you for using the "wrong models".
However, you can now take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment at no CP cost if it matches your WARLORD’s faction – great news for Knight players in Incursion games.
Well, that's a big load of . My LoWs will still cost me 1CP apiece, because "REASONS". Same for my dreadnoughts and "standard" tanks.
Depends on the exact wording. If it literally sets the CP cost of the detachment to 0, which is 6 + 1 from Martial Legacy, then it eats Martial Legacy. I guess that might depend on the order you're supposed to apply those (my bet is they won't consider that detail at all and we'll need an FAQ)
It'll probably be a Command Benefit. I.E.: "+3 Command Points if the unit in this detachment is from the same FACTION as your WARLORD". Similar to Patrols, Battalions, and the Supreme Command Detachment. So, Martial Legacy will still penalize you for using the "wrong models".
Yea, I can see it going both ways. If WarCom didn't have a history of not quite understanding the rulesets they talk about, I'd say the wording they use "at no CP cost" is important. "At no CP cost" in the context of the ruleset is quite a bit different than "refunding" or however you'd word what actually happens.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gad, but there's currently two different costs in you taking a FW LOW with your CSM force, isn't there?
There's the Command Cost of 3CP for selecting a SHAD, and then there's the Martial Legacy element of the datasheet which charges you a CP for taking the unit.
As far as I'm aware, Martial Legacy doesn't modify the Command Cost of a detachment to take it, so I don't see why you think a change to the SHAD would get around Martial Legacy, Rihgu.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dysartes wrote: Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gad, but there's currently two different costs in you taking a FW LOW with your CSM force, isn't there?
There's the Command Cost of 3CP for selecting a SHAD, and then there's the Martial Legacy element of the datasheet which charges you a CP for taking the unit.
As far as I'm aware, Martial Legacy doesn't modify the Command Cost of a detachment to take it, so I don't see why you think a change to the SHAD would get around Martial Legacy, Rihgu.
The rule Martial Legacy is
MARTIAL LEGACY
If your army is Battle-forged, then when this unit is included in a Detachment, increase that Detachment’s Command Cost by 1CP.
Although I guess there is an implicit Order of Operations here.
Add Detachment -> Cost Set to 0(??? depends on exact wording)
Add unit to Detachment, Increase Cost by 1.
So alas, I don't think we're getting past Martial Legacy.
Dysartes wrote: Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Gad, but there's currently two different costs in you taking a FW LOW with your CSM force, isn't there?
There's the Command Cost of 3CP for selecting a SHAD, and then there's the Martial Legacy element of the datasheet which charges you a CP for taking the unit.
As far as I'm aware, Martial Legacy doesn't modify the Command Cost of a detachment to take it, so I don't see why you think a change to the SHAD would get around Martial Legacy, Rihgu.
Basically what tneva82 said. Actual rule:
"If your army is Battle-forged, then when this unit is included in a Detachment, increase that Detachment's Command Cost by 1CP."
So it basically comes down to the rule in the Nephalim CA either making the detachment "free", or changing the Command Benefit, as they have typically done.
One of my long time friends really summed it up the other day when I asked if he'd like to get a game in this week.
He said: "I don't have the energy to learn 9th edition, and I don't even know where all of my rules for my Imperial Guard are, how many books do I need? Maybe we can play some other time." Pretty much sums up the state of the game. HH can't release soon enough.
Now we're up to having to pay command points for Warlord Traits and Relics because? WHY?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/14 16:47:37
Togusa wrote: One of my long time friends really summed it up the other day when I asked if he'd like to get a game in this week.
He said: "I don't have the energy to learn 9th edition, and I don't even know where all of my rules for my Imperial Guard are, how many books do I need? Maybe we can play some other time." Pretty much sums up the state of the game. HH can't release soon enough.
Now we're up to having to pay command points for Warlord Traits and Relics because? WHY?
Why not? More importantly for your example, is your guard buddy playing tournament 40k? If not, ignore this book, you don't have to pay for traits and relics.
They can play with just their codex and rulebook if they wanted, they'd be at a disadvantage admittedly, but nothing stopping it.
Also important to note the actual wording in the Warcom article:
However, you can now take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment at no CP cost if it matches your WARLORD’s faction – great news for Knight players in Incursion games.
So it at least sounds (remembering that Warcom doesn't always get the wording right) like it only makes the detachment "free", not the actual unit. And even if it did, still no help for any Martial Legacy unit that isn't a LoW.
So...does this kill the majority of warlord traits and relics?
And I'm not talking about second or third WTs or 2nd or 3rd Relics, I'm talking about killing off people taking their FIRST warlord trait and FIRST relic.
Looking at Sisters of Battle: Any list that isn't Bloody rose or Our Martyrd Lady doesn't really need a warlord trait. Indomitable belief for the extra invul is nice but not really necessary, especially if running vehicles like Paragons.
For relics, Book of Saint Lucius and Sigil Ecclesiastus are common picks, but those are 'comfort' takes that aren't strictly necessary. Chaplet of Sacrifice has the benefit of being CP neutral (gives a free strat) while also being decent offensively. The rest are all defensive relics on characters that aren't worth spending 1/6th of your total CP on.
Realistically on Non-BR, Non- OoML list will probably only take Chaplet of Sacrifice and that's only because it's 'free' and does offer a small boost. You might take righteous rage on Vahl but...honestly...probably not?
For BR, Every BR list absolutely MUST have 2 CP available for their pregame scout move with Repentia. It's easily the most powerful strat BR have, so you're not going to give that up for any relic/WT.
You really want a Word of the Emperor/Rapturous blows canoness to get into combat, so Burning Ire will get taken most of the time, but again, isn't NECESSARY. A melee relic is nice, but honestly even in bloody rose the Blade of Saint Estallia or the Blade of Saint Mina aren't...great. You might take Chaplet of Sacrifice because it's 'free' and gives rerolls and fight on death.
Indomitable Belief is very much something that can be dropped and Book of ST. Lucius and sigil ecclesiastus are pure comfort picks you absolutely cannot afford here.
So BR will AT MOST be taking Burning Ire, Chaplet of Sacrifice, and Righteous Rage on Morvenn Vahl. Realistically, you'll probably see one of those 3. MAYBE 2 if people really lean into the 'free' aspect of Chaplet.
OoML: The mortal wound Canoness is dead. She was mostly a gimmick anyway but now she's well and truly dead (in Morvenn Vahl Builds. Exemplar of the Order giving 2 traits might be enough to bring her back). Candela scroll made them the only SoB faction that might reasonably be expected to take an imagifier...we'll see how that goes now. Righteous Rage on Morvenn is probably out of their price range. Book of St' Lucius and Indomitable belief were really only useful for Zephyrim heavy lists. Realistically, you MIGHT take either Candela Scroll or Indomitable belief or you MIGHT take Righteous Rage on Morvenn. You could very easily argue not taking any relics/Warlord traits at all, though.
So across 3 distinct subfaction groups (2 of which had supplement books that added over a dozen additional WT and Relics) you have 2 'probably?' takes (Righteous Rage on Morvenn and Chaplet of Sacrifice because it's 'free') 5 'maybe?' takes (Burning Ire, Indomitable Belief, Book of St. Lucius, Candela Scroll, Sigil Ecclesiastus), and 50 'nopes'.
We'll likely average 2 total WT/Relics and that's only because Chaplet of Sacrifice is CP neutral. How many other factions are going to skip out on not just extra relics/WTs, but ANY?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/14 17:04:23
Togusa wrote: One of my long time friends really summed it up the other day when I asked if he'd like to get a game in this week.
He said: "I don't have the energy to learn 9th edition, and I don't even know where all of my rules for my Imperial Guard are, how many books do I need? Maybe we can play some other time." Pretty much sums up the state of the game. HH can't release soon enough.
Now we're up to having to pay command points for Warlord Traits and Relics because? WHY?
Why not? More importantly for your example, is your guard buddy playing tournament 40k? If not, ignore this book, you don't have to pay for traits and relics.
They can play with just their codex and rulebook if they wanted, they'd be at a disadvantage admittedly, but nothing stopping it.
I think the issue is with the rules having changed ten times over since launch. He and I usually only play matched play as he prefers it.
You've got to admit that the current rules are a god awful mess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/14 17:18:03
Togusa wrote: One of my long time friends really summed it up the other day when I asked if he'd like to get a game in this week.
He said: "I don't have the energy to learn 9th edition, and I don't even know where all of my rules for my Imperial Guard are, how many books do I need? Maybe we can play some other time." Pretty much sums up the state of the game. HH can't release soon enough.
Now we're up to having to pay command points for Warlord Traits and Relics because? WHY?
Why not? More importantly for your example, is your guard buddy playing tournament 40k? If not, ignore this book, you don't have to pay for traits and relics.
They can play with just their codex and rulebook if they wanted, they'd be at a disadvantage admittedly, but nothing stopping it.
I think the issue is with the rules having changed ten times over since launch. He and I usually only play matched play as he prefers it.
You've got to admit that the current rules are a god awful mess.
Core rules are fine and the Codexes were one significant balance patch away from being fine(Nerf Tau, Eldar, Nids; Buff...everybody else). No idea why they decided to reinvent the wheel when they were close to a decent format.
So...does this kill the majority of warlord traits and relics?
And I'm not talking about second or third WTs or 2nd or 3rd Relics, I'm talking about killing off people taking their FIRST warlord trait and FIRST relic.
Looking at Sisters of Battle: Any list that isn't Bloody rose or Our Martyrd Lady doesn't really need a warlord trait. Indomitable belief for the extra invul is nice but not really necessary, especially if running vehicles like Paragons.
For relics, Book of Saint Lucius and Sigil Ecclesiastus are common picks, but those are 'comfort' takes that aren't strictly necessary. Chaplet of Sacrifice has the benefit of being CP neutral (gives a free strat) while also being decent offensively. The rest are all defensive relics on characters that aren't worth spending 1/6th of your total CP on.
Realistically on Non-BR, Non- OoML list will probably only take Chaplet of Sacrifice and that's only because it's 'free' and does offer a small boost. You might take righteous rage on Vahl but...honestly...probably not?
For BR, Every BR list absolutely MUST have 2 CP available for their pregame scout move with Repentia. It's easily the most powerful strat BR have, so you're not going to give that up for any relic/WT.
You really want a Word of the Emperor/Rapturous blows canoness to get into combat, so Burning Ire will get taken most of the time, but again, isn't NECESSARY. A melee relic is nice, but honestly even in bloody rose the Blade of Saint Estallia or the Blade of Saint Mina aren't...great. You might take Chaplet of Sacrifice because it's 'free' and gives rerolls and fight on death.
Indomitable Belief is very much something that can be dropped and Book of ST. Lucius and sigil ecclesiastus are pure comfort picks you absolutely cannot afford here.
So BR will AT MOST be taking Burning Ire, Chaplet of Sacrifice, and Righteous Rage on Morvenn Vahl. Realistically, you'll probably see one of those 3. MAYBE 2 if people really lean into the 'free' aspect of Chaplet.
OoML: The mortal wound Canoness is dead. She was mostly a gimmick anyway but now she's well and truly dead (in Morvenn Vahl Builds. Exemplar of the Order giving 2 traits might be enough to bring her back). Candela scroll made them the only SoB faction that might reasonably be expected to take an imagifier...we'll see how that goes now. Righteous Rage on Morvenn is probably out of their price range. Book of St' Lucius and Indomitable belief were really only useful for Zephyrim heavy lists. Realistically, you MIGHT take either Candela Scroll or Indomitable belief or you MIGHT take Righteous Rage on Morvenn. You could very easily argue not taking any relics/Warlord traits at all, though.
So across 3 distinct subfaction groups (2 of which had supplement books that added over a dozen additional WT and Relics) you have 2 'probably?' takes (Righteous Rage on Morvenn and Chaplet of Sacrifice because it's 'free') 5 'maybe?' takes (Burning Ire, Indomitable Belief, Book of St. Lucius, Candela Scroll, Sigil Ecclesiastus), and 50 'nopes'.
We'll likely average 2 total WT/Relics and that's only because Chaplet of Sacrifice is CP neutral. How many other factions are going to skip out on not just extra relics/WTs, but ANY?
I don't think you're wrong. We'll probably see a lot fewer WTs and relics with this change, and only the absolute "best" ones, at that.
What I wonder, is how many HQs essentially become "tax units" without WTs and relics, and will therefore be taken less often. My Chaos Lord is essentially just a trumped up Warp Talon without his. If he's not going to have them, I don't see much reason to pay the points for him, instead of just bringing an extra Sorcerer, or something.
Well I was hoping the new generic trait & relic ones would also replace the generic ones in each codex and at least organize things a bit better, oh well. It does seem to make the cut to starting CP a bit steep though, I think 4/9 would have been more reasonable given the amount of pre-game upgrade strats there are.
Credit where due though, GW doing the points updates for free is a good step. Yes, yes they should have always been that way, it's not enough, and so on. But it is a definite improvement and should be noted as such.
I don't know if you have seen the new Warhammer Community Article. It has an image with the secondaries for the Astra Militarum.
I guess the rule of only one faction secondary is still in effect, because it it wasn't I would see the guard really moving up in the rankings. {It seems this is gone}
The "Inflexible Command" secondary (No Mercy, No Respite) is very, very tasty.
At the end of your turn you score +2 victory points if all your infantry are within 6' of a friendly officer.
Score 1 victory point if every vehicle is within 12' of a vehicle officer unit.
Score 1 victory point if if any units were destroyed by a unit that had an order on it.
As an interesting note it also goes on that if the officer is in a transport, that transport is assumed to have the officer keyword.
It also goes on to state that infantry units with a vox caster is within 24' of an officer it counts as being within 6' if the officer is within 1' of a friendly command squad.
This one should be easy to max. Incidentally did you know the Master of Ordinance also has the officer keyword? As does the master of the Fleet. It doesn't seem to be <Regiment> Locked either.
The secondary "By Lasgun and Bayonet" (Purge the Enemy) is 1vp for enemy untis destroyed within range of an objective marker is less good.
The "Boots on the Ground" (Battlefield Supremacy) is also interesting as you get 1 vp for each table quarter with a <Regiment> infantry unit wholly within in. You also get 1vp if a unit with a Regimental standard is wholly within 6' of the board centre. It should also be easy to max this out.
The "Special Orders" (Shadow Operations) secondary is also interesting. It is an action that any infantry unit within 12' of an officer and in range of an objective can do. It allows for a CP to be gained on a roll of a +6 but is worth 2vp if you did it on one objective 5vp if on two objectives 10vp if on three obectives and 15pts if done on 4 objectives.
So in other words if you can can move 4 infantry units (not regiment) into range of an objective, start an action at the end of their movement phase and bam, victory points.
It will be nice to be able to score some victory points easily.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/14 19:04:25
There are quite a few WLTs and Relics I would consider paying CP for in certain builds... but in listbuilding theres also lots of situations in which I'm taking WLTs and Relics simply because I more or less have to, and not because I actually think they are doing something to make my army better.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Dirk Reinecke wrote: I don't know if you have seen the new Warhammer Community Article. It an image with the secondaries for the Astra Militarum.
I guess the rule of only one faction secondary is still in effect, because it it wasn't I would see the guard really moving up in the rankings.
Apparently you looked at the image without reading the text directly below it:
"Another change – there are no limits when it comes to faction secondary objectives. If you want to pick two objectives specific to your faction, or even all three, go right ahead – so long as they’re all from a different category."
[4000 pts] Black Legion
[3300 pts] Thousand Sons
[2000 pts] World Eaters
[2000 pts] Dark Eldar
[2700 pts] Iron Hands
I think in most cases you'd want to make one HQ good via WLT/Relics, because as pointed out, a lot of them are an obligatory tax otherwise. As people have said, what this probably does is really pushes special characters.
I guess factions who really want multiple detachments may vary. But I'm not convinced 7 CP turn 1 is better than 5 CP+WLT+Relic for most factions.
Dirk Reinecke wrote: I don't know if you have seen the new Warhammer Community Article. It an image with the secondaries for the Astra Militarum.
I guess the rule of only one faction secondary is still in effect, because it it wasn't I would see the guard really moving up in the rankings.
Apparently you looked at the image without reading the text directly below it:
"Another change – there are no limits when it comes to faction secondary objectives. If you want to pick two objectives specific to your faction, or even all three, go right ahead – so long as they’re all from a different category."
You are right, I just saw the image and immediately went to try and decipher it. That makes it even better. I now know which three secondaries I will be taking. I was already making a very infantry heavy brigade so this is just gravy. At least 3vp per turn just by existing (and of course proper placement)
Tyel wrote: I think in most cases you'd want to make one HQ good via WLT/Relics, because as pointed out, a lot of them are an obligatory tax otherwise. As people have said, what this probably does is really pushes special characters.
I guess factions who really want multiple detachments may vary. But I'm not convinced 7 CP turn 1 is better than 5 CP+WLT+Relic for most factions.
And what if your options are:
7CP
3CP+WLT+Relic +2 dreadnoughts/tanks
5CP+WLT+Relic no dreadnoughts/tanks, or 2 dreadnoughts/tanks noWLT+Relic?
Personally I like the change and will probably incorporate it into the Tempest games I play. I always thought that armies started with to much CP, and the net effect of this is you are really going to have to think when to use a stratagem or if you really need all those relics/WL traits. Also I think this will really curb the Command Re-rolls as you can't just use it willy nilly anymore, which I love #nocpreroll (shout out to TTT). I wish you got a free WL trait though as that makes who is your warlord meaningful, where here if you are not taking a trait, who is the warlord really doesn't have much effect on the game.
Now if they would just make it so units could not be under the effect of multiple stratagems at the same time with this, I think Stratagems would be much better balanced.
Now if they would just make it so units could not be under the effect of multiple stratagems at the same time with this, I think Stratagems would be much better balanced.
QFT!
Just having a unit only able to be affected by a single stratagem per phase would go a long way to preventing the wombo combos.
There would still be a few ways round it by using auras etc, but it would be heavily mitigated
xeen wrote: Personally I like the change and will probably incorporate it into the Tempest games I play. I always thought that armies started with to much CP, and the net effect of this is you are really going to have to think when to use a stratagem or if you really need all those relics/WL traits. Also I think this will really curb the Command Re-rolls as you can't just use it willy nilly anymore, which I love #nocpreroll (shout out to TTT). I wish you got a free WL trait though as that makes who is your warlord meaningful, where here if you are not taking a trait, who is the warlord really doesn't have much effect on the game.
Now if they would just make it so units could not be under the effect of multiple stratagems at the same time with this, I think Stratagems would be much better balanced.
Also free points yah!
"or if you really need all those relics/WL traits". You mean THAT Warlord trait OR Relic. Only factions with unusable strats like Orkz are likely to make more than 1 of either.
. My 
