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I have always viewed PL as basically the demo mode of the game. you can use it to show someone new to the game the rough idea of it with out getting into the weeds.

Dudeface wrote:
Both sides including myself have been to some degree: abrupt, rude, negligent, outright offensive or ignorant.

The point is this thread needs to die.

Evidently some people use PL and enjoy it, some people don't want to use it and think it should go irrespective of any justification.

Those two trains of thought are incompatible at this juncture and were going to loop endlessly (again).

Can we all agree to leave it?

Lol, request mod-hood then if you want to close the thread. You can't unilaterally make that call, especially when the post right above this one (as well as mine earlier) pushed back on this dubious assertion you made that summoning isn't intended to be unlimited in PL games.

As the person who started this thread 40 pages ago, I have asked the mods to close it twice now, with zero success. I can only surmise this is being kept open by a mod.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Both sides including myself have been to some degree: abrupt, rude, negligent, outright offensive or ignorant.

The point is this thread needs to die.

Evidently some people use PL and enjoy it, some people don't want to use it and think it should go irrespective of any justification.

Those two trains of thought are incompatible at this juncture and were going to loop endlessly (again).

Can we all agree to leave it?

Lol, request mod-hood then if you want to close the thread. You can't unilaterally make that call, especially when the post right above this one (as well as mine earlier) pushed back on this dubious assertion you made that summoning isn't intended to be unlimited in PL games.

I didn't state it wasn't intended, I said stating PL is bad because of summoning when the rule isn't attached to PL, it's a "matched play" restriction rule. If summoning is what upsets the anti-PL crowd it's a literal 1 sentence change to that rule to change it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As the person who started this thread 40 pages ago, I have asked the mods to close it twice now, with zero success. I can only surmise this is being kept open by a mod.

Post a bunch of political stuff.




Wait, only works half the time. Post a bunch of right leaning political stuff...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As the person who started this thread 40 pages ago, I have asked the mods to close it twice now, with zero success. I can only surmise this is being kept open by a mod.

Well, again, dakka has a rep as an unmoderated cesspit. (Going for the lock here)

 Just Tony wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As the person who started this thread 40 pages ago, I have asked the mods to close it twice now, with zero success. I can only surmise this is being kept open by a mod.

Post a bunch of political stuff.




Wait, only works half the time. Post a bunch of right leaning political stuff...

Anyone who plays PL is a facist nazi/crazy SJW [delete as appropriate]!

So where should those of us who play Open and/or us PL post and discuss the game with that in mind then?

 Just Tony wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As the person who started this thread 40 pages ago, I have asked the mods to close it twice now, with zero success. I can only surmise this is being kept open by a mod.

Post a bunch of political stuff.




Wait, only works half the time. Post a bunch of right leaning political stuff...

It's very funny to me that people will post things like this when the stuff actually getting threads locked is like, white supremacy, homophobia/transphobia, etc, and nothing actually right leaning.

 Blndmage wrote:
So where should those of us who play Open and/or us PL post and discuss the game with that in mind then?

Open a thread for PL play and suggestions - the entire premise of this thread is a discussion of removing points, not a general discussion of PL which will no doubt not have content from the PL detractors.

 Blndmage wrote:
So where should those of us who play Open and/or us PL post and discuss the game with that in mind then?

By opening a thread to discuss it? Like the one we are in now, like the one that is 30+ pages?

 Just Tony wrote:

Post a bunch of political stuff.




Wait, only works half the time. Post a bunch of right leaning political stuff...

I'll remake that thread about prosthetics and ableism when I collect the right references.

Blndmage wrote:So where should those of us who play Open and/or us PL post and discuss the game with that in mind then?

Power Level Appreciation Thread.

How incredibly difficult is it to think of that?

Dudeface wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
So where should those of us who play Open and/or us PL post and discuss the game with that in mind then?

Open a thread for PL play and suggestions - the entire premise of this thread is a discussion of removing points, not a general discussion of PL which will no doubt not have content from the PL detractors.

Apparently not that difficult.

Backspacehacker wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
So where should those of us who play Open and/or us PL post and discuss the game with that in mind then?

By opening a thread to discuss it? Like the one we are in now, like the one that is 30+ pages?

You mean the one predicated on the polarizing removal of points?

Hey substance of the topic is another thing, they asked where can we talk about it, and this thread is proof of just that discussing PL, the fact its predicated on removing points is not really relevant to where you can talk about it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If not a casual *player*, what am I?

Just a normal player. The reality is that you care far more about the game than genuine casual players. And remember that forums like this are not a representative sample, the people here are the 5-10% least casual players in the entire community. So being one of the most casual members of the forum doesn't mean a lot.

Also, I think you're being far too literal when I refer to "type of game" - I am referring to "do we want a friendly beer and pretzels game" or "do we want to go full ham and tournament this" kind of dynamics, the same kind of chat you'd have before a football game with your mates. I'm not talking about "which of these rules do we follow", I'm going even more basic than that.

"I don't know dude, I just have this box of space marines, do people even do tournaments for this stuff?"
-Actual casual player

It's literally just called communication, and of all the things 40k should be, it should be a chance to HAVE communication. I don't want a game where two strangers rock up, say nothing, and push toy soldiers around. I want a game where people can talk, communicate, lay out how they're feeling and what they want, and work to support and empower the other.

But, again, why do you value this? Never in my entire life have I had a conversation about "hey, I know this game is unbalanced so what power level do we want to aim for" and felt that it has added anything of value to my life other than allowing us to overcome the flaws of the game. What gain is there in having to agree to a thing after discussing it vs. having that thing already settled without needing a discussion? Do you just love arguing and need more excuses to do it?

And please don't make straw man arguments. Not needing to have a pre-game conversation about how to play the game is not the same as not having conversation at all. We can still talk about football, make plans for dinner after the game, vent about work, etc. The game will absolutely not be played in silence. But those things have nothing to do with the pre-game negotiation you are talking about.

If balance is so "trivially easy", do it for me now.

Delete PL. Use only the normal point system. Balance is improved with a trivial amount of effort.

Is this perfect balance? No. But perfect balance is not what I said was trivially easy. Improving balance is.

Where is your sense of empathy?

I'll have empathy for your "needs" when you can point to more than a trivial time savings as a practical value for PL. Until then, until the benefit of you is more than trivial, it will be outweighed by even modest gains for other people.

But I might ask you the same question: where was your sense of empathy when you dismissed the 5+ alternative point systems I requested? Why don't you value my needs?

Because by your own statements, you don’t actually want them and are just proposing them as hyperbole at best and an attempt to make someone else look bad at worst.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If not a casual *player*, what am I?

Just a normal player.

There are that many types of player in the game that I genuinely don't believe you can call anyone truly "normal" because there IS no norm.

The reality is that you care far more about the game than genuine casual players. And remember that forums like this are not a representative sample, the people here are the 5-10% least casual players in the entire community. So being one of the most casual members of the forum doesn't mean a lot.

Do you actually know what I'm talking about, because it sounds that you don't.

Forum engagement =/= playing
Painting =/= playing
Lore =/= playing
Modelling =/=playing
Playing = playing

I have repeated ad nauseam that I am a casual player, not a casual hobbyist. Please, listen what I am saying, because I think you think I'm saying something else.

Also, I think you're being far too literal when I refer to "type of game" - I am referring to "do we want a friendly beer and pretzels game" or "do we want to go full ham and tournament this" kind of dynamics, the same kind of chat you'd have before a football game with your mates. I'm not talking about "which of these rules do we follow", I'm going even more basic than that.

"I don't know dude, I just have this box of space marines, do people even do tournaments for this stuff?"
-Actual casual player

Also an actual casual player:
"Yeah, I like my Space Marines, but I'm just here to put them on the table and have fun, I'm not desperate to win".

Why do you need to be so contrarian over what people are and aren't allowed to be?

It's literally just called communication, and of all the things 40k should be, it should be a chance to HAVE communication. I don't want a game where two strangers rock up, say nothing, and push toy soldiers around. I want a game where people can talk, communicate, lay out how they're feeling and what they want, and work to support and empower the other.

But, again, why do you value this?

Because communication is good?? I've never once thought in my life "hey, you know what'd be great - NOT communicating my feelings and expectations with someone and seeing how that goes".

What gain is there in having to agree to a thing after discussing it vs. having that thing already settled without needing a discussion?

Because not everything can or should be settled pre-discussion, because reality is messy, people have different wants and needs, and no ruleset should ever circumvent human experiences.

For example, there is no ruleset so perfect that you and I would be able to have a game, because we have fundamentally different intentions and expectations - and that's okay! The issue is acting like we aren't people with out own desires and needs.

Do you just love arguing and need more excuses to do it?

The fact that you think that setting boundaries and expectations is "arguing" says a lot about how you communicate with people.

And please don't make straw man arguments. Not needing to have a pre-game conversation about how to play the game is not the same as not having conversation at all. We can still talk about football, make plans for dinner after the game, vent about work, etc. The game will absolutely not be played in silence. But those things have nothing to do with the pre-game negotiation you are talking about.

Well, actually, those things *aren't* appealing to some - some people genuinely don't want to talk about real life when they play, and only want to talk about the game - which is why having a pre-game chat about how both parties want to play is so critically important!

If balance is so "trivially easy", do it for me now.

Delete PL. Use only the normal point system. Balance is improved with a trivial amount of effort.

That literally doesn't change anything about how balanced *your* games are though. All you've done is take a steaming gak over my games. You haven't affected your own balance at all.

Try again, buster.

Where is your sense of empathy?

I'll have empathy for your "needs" when you can point to more than a trivial time savings as a practical value for PL.

This just in, apparently basic levels of empathy need to be justified and earned via an argument, instead of just respecting people.

Nope, I stand by exactly what I've said - you are devoid of respect. It is ironic that you complain about folks treating you how you treat others.

But I might ask you the same question: where was your sense of empathy when you dismissed the 5+ alternative point systems I requested? Why don't you value my needs?

If you'll notice, I actually never dismissed them, and said that, if you showed me someone who *genuinely* had a use for them (so, I'm not going to be listening to you here, because I'm sure you can appreciate that I am skeptical of your bias, having never mentioned these before, and only bringing them up to attempt to discredit my argument that there should be more accessible systems), then I'd be fully on board.

Because, unlike you, I actually want people to have the tools they ask for, instead of taking them away because I don't use them.
It's called empathy. You might want to try it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because by your own statements, you don’t actually want them and are just proposing them as hyperbole at best and an attempt to make someone else look bad at worst.

Shhhhh, they know this, but they'll almost certainly kick up a fuss about people being exclusionary.

If you *are* genuine about it, could you lay out in detail how such systems would all work, the audience (specifically, I want testimonies) for said system, and also you to accept that PL is valid. If you can't or won't do that, then why should we entertain this discussion further if you're making bad faith hyperbole arguments?

Here's a real-world experiment to settle this question. PL vs. normal points, 2000 points and 100 points. No battlescribe, no GW app, just a .txt document in notepad and the windows calculator. And just to make sure I gave every benefit of the doubt to PL I wrote the points list first, so any time savings from already knowing roughly what the list would contain was applied to the PL time.

Normal points:

Tank commander (demolisher, LC) - 200 Tank commander (relic BC, LC) - 200 Pask (demolisher, LC) - 225 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Platoon commander - 25 Platoon commander - 25 Veterans (plasma x3, lascannon, vox, plasma pistol, power sword) - 100 Bullgryns x6 - 180 Sentinel (LC) - 40 Manticore (HB, full payload) - 155 Manticore (HB, full payload) - 155 Valkyrie (lascannon, missiles, HB x2) - 165 Chimera (HF x2) - 85 Chimera (HF x2) - 85 Total: 2000/2000, 6 minutes to build

PL:

Tank commander (demolisher, LC, MM x2, HK) - 13 Tank commander (relic BC, LC, MM x2, HK) - 12 Pask (demolisher, LC, MM x2, HK) - 12 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Platoon commander - 2 Platoon commander - 2 Crusaders x10 - 10 Command squad (4x plasma) - 2 Hades drill - 4 Manticore (full payload, HB, HK) - 9 Manticore (full payload, HB, HK) - 9 Basilisk (HB, HK) - 7 Total: 100/100, 5 minutes to build.

TL;DR: 5 minutes to build a list with PL, 6 minutes to build a list with normal points.

Now, are they fully optimized tournament lists? No, but that doesn't matter. Making choices is the same in both systems and if anything it will skew the results even further in favor of the normal point system. If I add another 30 minutes to each list as I debate the merits of plasma delivery via Valkyrie vs. plasma delivery via Hades drill the one minute of time savings becomes an even smaller percentage of the total time spent.

Can we now acknowledge the obvious, that PL has no reason to exist?

CadianSgtBob wrote:Here's a real-world experiment to settle this question. PL vs. normal points, 2000 points and 100 points. No battlescribe, no GW app, just a .txt document in notepad and the windows calculator. And just to make sure I gave every benefit of the doubt to PL I wrote the points list first, so any time savings from already knowing roughly what the list would contain was applied to the PL time.

[...]

TL;DR: 6 minutes to build a list with PL, 5 minutes to build a list with normal points.

Now, are they fully optimized tournament lists? No, but that doesn't matter. Making choices is the same in both systems and if anything it will skew the results even further in favor of the normal point system. If I add another 30 minutes to each list as I debate the merits of plasma delivery via Valkyrie vs. plasma delivery via Hades drill the one minute of time savings becomes an even smaller percentage of the total time spent.

Can we now acknowledge the obvious, that PL has no reason to exist?

No, because as we've ascertained, PL has no reason for YOU to use it. Your experiences aren't the same as everyone else's, which at this point, I feel should go without saying, but here we are.

When I have the energy to do so, I'll repeat this same performance, as I actually mentioned earlier, with a 75 PL and 1500 point list, and see how long it takes, to demonstrate that your experience isn't the only one.

My 1500 point list is trivial to write - 3x Baneblades, 2 without sponsons, one with one pair of sponsons, a patrol with Creed, 1x scions with 2x plasma and plasma Pistol, and a Trojan dedicated transport

Power Level I can't remember off the top of my head like I can points for Baneblades, BS3 Plasma, Creed, and Scions.

Baneblades are 410 (470 with sponsons), scions are 45, plasma are 10 each but the pistol is free, creed is 60, Trojans are 85.

We have trojans in this game? I thought it was a kids game?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Your experiences aren't the same as everyone else's, which at this point, I feel should go without saying, but here we are.

You can keep saying this but you still can't provide any reason why they aren't. You make a bunch of vague statements about "I prefer PL" or "I find points difficult" but no details. Why? Because when you look at the details there's no significant difference. Both lists were made with the exact same process (add a core set of units, add up points, add secondary units to fill points, make final adjustments) and at no point was there any functional difference between them. The normal point system had a few more digits to type and a tiny bit of additional math to add up 10+10+10+70=100 but that's a few seconds of difference at most. There is no point in the process where you can point to it and say "yes, that is the part that takes longer" with a compelling reason for why it takes longer. And TBH I'm not even sure that PL was really faster beyond the margin of random variation, I wouldn't be surprised if the PL list took longer if I did the test again.

The reality here is that I'm not exceptional. I don't have exceptional skill at math, I don't play an exceptional amount of 40k (my army is currently in storage and I haven't played a game in at least a year) with a bunch of lists memorized, and I certainly don't have some amazing strategic brilliance at figuring out perfect lists. PL is just not an easier tool to use by any meaningful margin.

When I have the energy to do so, I'll repeat this same performance, as I actually mentioned earlier, with a 75 PL and 1500 point list, and see how long it takes, to demonstrate that your experience isn't the only one.

Please do, and please be honest about it. Don't spend a bunch of time making a perfectly optimized 1500 point tournament list and compare it to quickly duplicating one of your stock 75 point lists. I made an honest effort to build the two lists with the exact same process and same level of care given to unit selection and I even made the one potential source of bias I could foresee favor the side I dislike.

Can you justify your favorite pizza toppings?
What about your favorite sandwich ingredients?

Or, are those just what you happen to like best? Because when it comes to toy soldier games, "I like this," even without good articulation as to WHY you like it... Is totally fine. This is a hobby we partake in for fun-if it's more fun to play with PL, play with PL. If you only like to play 40k wearing a scarf, wear that scarf. If your favorite army is Word Bearers, play the crap out of Word Bearers.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Optimizing lists to match your playstyle is part of player skill though, plus facing the exact same armies all the time is super boring.

I believe 40k has never been designed for "blind" games against random opponents, regardless of how popular this way of playing might be in some areas. Heck, I know pineapple on pizza is pretty popular somewhere (very far from where I live thankfully) and I can't think of a worst kind of heresy .

Please keep one of my national treasures out of your tawdry arguments over Power Levels. Next you will drag poutine into your polemics about having to paint your miniatures to get 10 VPs. Keep this up and I will come over there and put ketchup on all of your pasta. And your chips.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Optimizing lists to match your playstyle is part of player skill though, plus facing the exact same armies all the time is super boring.

I believe 40k has never been designed for "blind" games against random opponents, regardless of how popular this way of playing might be in some areas. Heck, I know pineapple on pizza is pretty popular somewhere (very far from where I live thankfully) and I can't think of a worst kind of heresy .

Please keep one of my national treasures out of your tawdry arguments over Power Levels. Next you will drag poutine into your polemics about having to paint your miniatures to get 10 VPs. Keep this up and I will come over there and put ketchup on all of your pasta. And your chips.

Depends where you are, chips in the UK regularly get a dose of ketchup and are great.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Here's a real-world experiment to settle this question. PL vs. normal points, 2000 points and 100 points. No battlescribe, no GW app, just a .txt document in notepad and the windows calculator. And just to make sure I gave every benefit of the doubt to PL I wrote the points list first, so any time savings from already knowing roughly what the list would contain was applied to the PL time.

Normal points:

Tank commander (demolisher, LC) - 200 Tank commander (relic BC, LC) - 200 Pask (demolisher, LC) - 225 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 60 Platoon commander - 25 Platoon commander - 25 Veterans (plasma x3, lascannon, vox, plasma pistol, power sword) - 100 Bullgryns x6 - 180 Sentinel (LC) - 40 Manticore (HB, full payload) - 155 Manticore (HB, full payload) - 155 Valkyrie (lascannon, missiles, HB x2) - 165 Chimera (HF x2) - 85 Chimera (HF x2) - 85 Total: 2000/2000, 6 minutes to build

PL:

Tank commander (demolisher, LC, MM x2, HK) - 13 Tank commander (relic BC, LC, MM x2, HK) - 12 Pask (demolisher, LC, MM x2, HK) - 12 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Infantry squad (LC, plasma, plasma pistol, power sword, vox) - 3 Platoon commander - 2 Platoon commander - 2 Crusaders x10 - 10 Command squad (4x plasma) - 2 Hades drill - 4 Manticore (full payload, HB, HK) - 9 Manticore (full payload, HB, HK) - 9 Basilisk (HB, HK) - 7 Total: 100/100, 5 minutes to build.

TL;DR: 6 minutes to build a list with PL, 5 minutes to build a list with normal points.

Now, are they fully optimized tournament lists? No, but that doesn't matter. Making choices is the same in both systems and if anything it will skew the results even further in favor of the normal point system. If I add another 30 minutes to each list as I debate the merits of plasma delivery via Valkyrie vs. plasma delivery via Hades drill the one minute of time savings becomes an even smaller percentage of the total time spent.

Can we now acknowledge the obvious, that PL has no reason to exist?

Except as I've already explained, when I and other people in my group build lists, we don't even pick equipment. Your PL list took as long as it did because you factored load-out into the list, which in a PL game is unnecessary at the list building stage. You can do it as you're packing your models up to go to wherever it is you're playing, and if you happen to be the host, you can do it as you're putting models on the table. And next game? You can use the same list, but the loadouts you choose THAT day may be entirely different, but it doesn't matter, because the value of the units doesn't change based on the load out.

Now obviously, not everyone who plays PL does it this way- some people will think about load-out at the list building stage. Also, for Crusade players like me, once the load-out is chosen, it is locked in until you burn RP to modify it. But even so, I still don't bother thinking about load-out at all when I'm doing the list building- I still leave until game day.

The difference {for some people) between list building with PL vs. list building with points is not a difference of degree- it is a conceptually dissimilar experience. Equipment selection isn't an integrated part of the list-building process with PL- it's an afterthought. And when you finally get to that stage where you're picking equipment, you just grab whichever models you feel like using that day, knowing that the list you made isn't going to change in value no matter which load-out you pick.

With points, you must pick your load out at the list building stage- you have no choice, because which load-out you pick plays a part in how many units you get to bring. Buy too much expensive gear and you don't get to bring as many dudes. Not an issue with PL.

Dissimilar experiences.

PenitentJake wrote:
Your PL list took as long as it did because you factored load-out into the list, which in a PL game is unnecessary at the list building stage.

So much wrong in so few words.

First of all, no, that's not why it took that long. All of the equipment choices were incredibly obvious because that's what PL does. Why debate LRBT sponson options when, if they all cost the same zero points, multimeltas are the obvious correct answer? Why would you ever not take the free plasma pistol and power sword on every sergeant? Etc. I spent more time typing out the words than it took to pick which things to add.

Second, no, it isn't unnecessary. Units go in a list for a reason and their equipment is part of that reason. For example, the command squad with plasma guns goes with the Hades drill (and is required to take the drill). Its whole purpose in the list is to deep strike and kill something with special weapons, and because of the 9" minimum range on deep strike that means 4x plasma guns. Any other equipment choice would contradict its role in the list.

Third, no, it doesn't take longer at all. There is zero difference between taking five minutes in one single session and taking five minutes divided up into four minutes to write the list and one minute to pick the equipment. Ignoring equipment when you start putting a list together doesn't change the total time required to make the list, it just defers some of that time until later. The end result is still the same total amount of time spent.

Fourth, who cares? Even if you increase the time savings to a whole two minutes who ****ing cares? It's still a choice between four minutes and six minutes out of a 3-4 hour game. You're nitpicking at a ridiculously minor detail and ignoring the broader point that there is no meaningful difference in time here.

But even so, I still don't bother thinking about load-out at all when I'm doing the list building- I still leave until game day.

You're contradicting yourself here. You play Crusade which means fixed lists, how do you leave equipment choices to game day when they have to be written permanently into your order of battle and only changed at a high price? You might be willing to spend tons of RP changing things on game day but even then you still have to pick a default choice to start with, you can't leave it as "TBD" in your list.

Buy too much expensive gear and you don't get to bring as many dudes.

Why would you think that this is a good thing? If you brought a ton of expensive and powerful equipment for your dudes why should you have the same number of dudes as someone who brought their dudes with basic starting equipment only? Do you not think you should have to pay the fair price for your powerful gear? Or is your opponent expected to sacrifice their fun and replace everything in their own list with all the expensive stuff just so they aren't at a significant disadvantage?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Can you justify your favorite pizza toppings?
What about your favorite sandwich ingredients?

Or, are those just what you happen to like best? Because when it comes to toy soldier games, "I like this," even without good articulation as to WHY you like it... Is totally fine. This is a hobby we partake in for fun-if it's more fun to play with PL, play with PL. If you only like to play 40k wearing a scarf, wear that scarf. If your favorite army is Word Bearers, play the crap out of Word Bearers.

Cool. Use PL and enjoy it. But if you want to argue against having it removed then you need something more compelling than "I like it and I don't have to justify it".

I just don't understand how it would take longer in PL you have the added bonus that your guard list doesn't pay for squad upgrades anyway (sounds familiar). I'd love to see you take an honest crack doing the same for say chaos marines, even just balancing it out to ~2k can take some hefty reshuffling and calculations that adds way more time due to the granularity and not wanting 10+ points free.

Edit: PL didn't take longer you messed your own tl;dr up

Well that starts to sounds a bit like the argument why someone things that the metric system is better then the imperial one. When all their life they lived under the yoke of the imperial system.

Regular Pts are easy, because majority people use them. If your remember how much a 5 man termintor squad with a thunder hammer and force staff costs, then you remember how much it costs. Same for an NDK with Psilancer and Heavy psycanon, with or without teleport. PL would require you to learn a second, not better, way of creating lists, which also plays merry hell with army composition, because those TH you only take one per squad are a totaly different option if they cost 0pts.

Karol wrote:
Well that starts to sounds a bit like the argument why someone things that the metric system is better then the imperial one. When all their life they lived under the yoke of the imperial system.

Regular Pts are easy, because majority people use them. If your remember how much a 5 man termintor squad with a thunder hammer and force staff costs, then you remember how much it costs. Same for an NDK with Psilancer and Heavy psycanon, with or without teleport. PL would require you to learn a second, not better, way of creating lists, which also plays merry hell with army composition, because those TH you only take one per squad are a totaly different option if they cost 0pts.

That's.... kind of the whole threads point.