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So for a long time I was as stanch a Squat supporter as you could find based mainly on my love of the Epic Squats and their steampunk aesthetic. And my dislike of GW proactively editing books to eliminate references to Squats which struck me as petty.

But now that they are finally back, along with 2 more plastic space dwarf lines, and I'm just not feeling it. The designs are kind of generically sci-fi for both the Necromunda and 40k Squats.

By contrast the AoS sky dwarves, with their insane steampunk armor, those I can totally get behind and would use for 40k.

Anyone else feeling this way?

The design of nu-squats is pretty boring but I 'm interested to see the genetically modified guys. The Ironkin models look like weedier Khador Man'o'War suits.

I really like a lot of the fluff though. It has a lot of interesting ideas that make them still feel classicly dwarfy without them just being Space Dwarfs. I wish Tomb Kings In Space had had this much thought put into them.

Also the AoS Sky-dwarfs are way too far gone the other way. They look ridiculous.

The Necromunda models look cool enough - but I've little interest in that game.

The 40k Votans?
While im not thrilled with that hover bike, I also haven't seen enough of the line yet.

edit When it drops, this will be the 1st codex I've read in many many years lore wise.

My issue is the 'technologically advanced sci-fi meets 40k' aesthetic is already being done with Primaris. I quite liked the generic trooper, but the Pioneer could've passed as a Guard model and I'd have believed it.

Another vote for the Ironkin looking like a Khador model.

The art we've seen of what are presumably the new Hearthguard makes them look even more like Starcraft Marines.

The way they are painted and the way the models look like they make me think of Infinity.

how to say, they are not bad just a little bit too close to what we already got from Mantic, at least the Necromunda as there are not many previews from the others, and I don't see anything that makes me buy the GW ones over Mantic or WGA

at least for SciFi Dwarfs, WGA ticks the Vikings in Space, Mantic the SciFi Miners and high tech dwarfs

maybe there is somehting later that ticks the Necromunda/40k Grimdark theme, otherwise the AoS ones fit that theme better

I think GW is doing a good job on the worldbuilding part of them and actually putting thought into how their society operates. This is something that really hampers a lot of AOS factions in that their team is so obsessed with this ongoing narrative that they forget to actually develop the setting and the factions within it in interesting ways.

So, I do want to give GW props for that, but I'm finding most of the actual lore and it's details really eyerollingly bland. One reason Squats disappeared was because GW realized that unlike their Space Orcs and Space Elves, their Space Dwarfs were really bland and generic and very much just [fantasy race in space] with none of the extra stuff that went into Orks and Eldar to make them legitimately distinct and transcend their initial concept. With Votaan so far we're getting all the usual Dwarf checkmarks; grudges, Viking-inspired naming conventions (with modern GW nonsense-spelling), use of runic script, a focus on mining and wealth etc etc. It's all just very standard and basically the entire reason Squats were dropped in the first place. Unfortunately the AI-Core's don't seem to be enough of a thing to help them distinguish themselves, but there could be more on the horizon to help that, so who knows.

Aesthetically, at least they aren't the jokey old RT designs or WHFB Dwarfs with space guns, but so far nothing about them is really doing much to establish its own distinct design space. Obviously they're descended from humans, but so far a lot of their stuff just looks a little too close to modern Imperial designs and like others have said, very close to Primaris or Guard stuff.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So for a long time I was as stanch a Squat supporter as you could find based mainly on my love of the Epic Squats and their steampunk aesthetic. And my dislike of GW proactively editing books to eliminate references to Squats which struck me as petty.

But now that they are finally back, along with 2 more plastic space dwarf lines, and I'm just not feeling it. The designs are kind of generically sci-fi for both the Necromunda and 40k Squats.

By contrast the AoS sky dwarves, with their insane steampunk armor, those I can totally get behind and would use for 40k.

Anyone else feeling this way?

The background is hacking me off (they're too perfect, and just crapping on the major setting themes by presenting them as long-solved problems.)
The models... eh. Haven't really seen enough. The bike and the irynkynkyn are overstuffed with pointless gubbins, which I'm not a fan of. The squat trooper is... too big? I think? Need more than an isolated glamor shot, needs background and other models to compare it to.

I went from initial enthusiasm to a kind of indifferent melded with irritation (at the background and more more-better guns and inserting yet-another-faction into the release line-up).

I'm somewhat interested in the fluff. Some good ideas but I'll withhold judgement for a while.

As for the minis, I'm unimpressed. The Forgefathers+Tau aesthetic thing just doesn't grab me.

I'm a grognard with enough original squats to keep me busy though so I'm not really the target audience for these guys. Might buy the codex but probably not the models.

We’ve barely seen anything of them.

I’m reserving judgement until I’ve seen something resembling an army shown off.

Eyeing up the Necro'Squats for at least stargrave & 5 Parsecs.

Votann being a different-letters-but-same-pronunciation rendition of Wotan, an alternate Germanic spelling of Odin, is I think a pretty good summary of the faction thus far. Continuing the on-the-nose theme with Hearthkyn (hearth-kin) and Theyns (thanes), they seem to be barely a step removed from just being generic Tolkien Dwarfs in space. I like the lore about their integration with AI, but the Dwarf culture is basically Deep Rock Galactic played straight.

I'm just waiting to read about them having societal meetings called Altyngs or maintaining a Dataslate of Grudges.

Voss wrote:
The background is hacking me off (they're too perfect, and just crapping on the major setting themes by presenting them as long-solved problems.)

Though to be fair, people said the same thing about the Tau, despite them having some pretty dark but subtle elements to their lore until GW (and Phil Kelly in particular) dropped the subtlety and elevated the Ethereals to mustache-twirling mind-controlling villains.

Not to put words in your mouth (more of a general observation of the fanbase), but I think there's a fine line between 'this faction is bad because it isn't grimdark enough' and 'this faction is bad because it contradicts my headcanon that everything the Imperium does is justified and necessary'. I expect they'll have their own problems- in particular the idea of their society being run by quasi-sane AI has a lot of potential- but they don't need to be all the same ones the Imperials do.

Again, we’re getting very little info. That no downside has been mentioned (other than their reliance on the Votann, and the Votann going wonky) does not mean there is no downside.

To me, they're the league of meh.

Any other day I would be excited for an AI driven faction, as the potential is there for awesome tanks and sci-fi grunge, almost like cyberpunk to the AdMech's dieselpunk.

But they look like stunty space Marines so far, to me, anyways.

 Bosskelot wrote:
So, I do want to give GW props for that, but I'm finding most of the actual lore and it's details really eyerollingly bland. One reason Squats disappeared was because GW realized that unlike their Space Orcs and Space Elves, their Space Dwarfs were really bland and generic and very much just [fantasy race in space] with none of the extra stuff that went into Orks and Eldar to make them legitimately distinct and transcend their initial concept. With Votaan so far we're getting all the usual Dwarf checkmarks; grudges, Viking-inspired naming conventions (with modern GW nonsense-spelling), use of runic script, a focus on mining and wealth etc etc. It's all just very standard and basically the entire reason Squats were dropped in the first place. Unfortunately the AI-Core's don't seem to be enough of a thing to help them distinguish themselves, but there could be more on the horizon to help that, so who knows.

Its a bit early to go full doom and gloom - but this sums up my position.

I don't even hate the models. I just don't feel anything for them really. Because they are bland and generic.

Might be different when we get the full range, and a codex full of fluff. But that's my take at the moment.

Did you like 1W Primaris Marines? Necrons? How about every other hyper space technology faction with T4S4 BECAUSE WE'VE GOT AN ENTIRELY NEW FACTION BASED AROUND THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD!

Yeah, I can't really say the Votanites lore met the high standard that GW has put out with say, Primaris, or any lore whatsoever after 2019. It's just as silly if not more so.

Also their statlines leave a LOT to be desired. I expect their weapons to be silly good.

Most new armies look bland when they start out. Necrons were basically mindless exterminator bots with only a handful of models for ages. Genestealer Cults were interesting, but ultimately were one or two unique models and a bunch of guardsmen and guard models with icons on them.


Armies can always look a bit boring when all you've got is a few models to their name.

Idk about that. On-release (at least of their codex), Necrons were an interesting fusion of Lovecraftian horror and the all too familiar soulless machine trope, in that not only were the machines soulless Hunter-Killers (like the terminator!) but they were in the service of ancient, Lovecraftian entities with inscrutable intelligence and motives. It was an interesting dynamic, like severing the Terminator from Skynet and instead having it Anhuld serve Yog-Sothoth.

The model design doesn't really catch me, like the classic Squats did. Lore's fine.

 catbarf wrote:
Votann being a different-letters-but-same-pronunciation rendition of Wotan, an alternate Germanic spelling of Odin, is I think a pretty good summary of the faction thus far. Continuing the on-the-nose theme with Hearthkyn (hearth-kin) and Theyns (thanes), they seem to be barely a step removed from just being generic Tolkien Dwarfs in space. I like the lore about their integration with AI, but the Dwarf culture is basically Deep Rock Galactic played straight.

I'm just waiting to read about them having societal meetings called Altyngs or maintaining a Dataslate of Grudges.

Voss wrote:
The background is hacking me off (they're too perfect, and just crapping on the major setting themes by presenting them as long-solved problems.)

Though to be fair, people said the same thing about the Tau, despite them having some pretty dark but subtle elements to their lore until GW (and Phil Kelly in particular) dropped the subtlety and elevated the Ethereals to mustache-twirling mind-controlling villains.

Some people said that about Tau because they didn't want anime. Tau have very obvious problems in terms of background (and the game), and its been consistent since their introduction- There are several places they don't have any stakes (psychic abilities, corruption, and possibly souls, to draw the first two to a logical conclusion, or at least 'lesser souls' in a weird way). The don't have the thematic AI problems the new Squats do, because they limit their AI drones. Their impacts on the setting are intentionally minor.
They also have the same problems Tomb Kings and Lizardmen had in Fantasy. They aren't universal players and don't have any ability to get to the primary conflicts (or indeed, out of their irrelevant little corners) without vigorous handwaving.

Tau had and have a problem with relevance, but they don't kick the setting's themes over.

Nu-squats, on the other hand, have it all.

Not to put words in your mouth (more of a general observation of the fanbase), but I think there's a fine line between 'this faction is bad because it isn't grimdark enough' and 'this faction is bad because it contradicts my headcanon that everything the Imperium does is justified and necessary'. I expect they'll have their own problems- in particular the idea of their society being run by quasi-sane AI has a lot of potential- but they don't need to be all the same ones the Imperials do.

Nope. Zero to do with any of that (and as a 'general observation' I'll skip being offended by it). The problem is they hit the major themes of the setting and knock it all down:

Psychic abilities run rampant is one of the major themes of the setting. Squats? Can just turn it off. Encode usable but non-threatening psychic genes in whatever clone batches they like, with no chance of mutation. If they want a safe psychic race, they could just have that.

Cloning (and thus population booms beyond all reason, or population limits because 'dying race') Nope. They do cloning perfectly. Controlled mutation, none of the usual problems of cloning with limited gene-pool, poor, degrading copies, nothing. Its just fine and they can innovate on it to create new sub-strains and do whatever

Stagnant technology. Nope. They're fine, can innovate, progress and their guns are just even more better.

Hostile AI? Nope. Theirs are fine and friendly. The old cores are slow, but... whatever. With everything else, do they even need old god machines for anything beyond tradition? This may turn into something interesting, but nothing suggests they even need it.

Warp travel. Well, they can do psychic barriers and AI navigation, so even that's fine. Hi, Tau and Necrons, you're idiots now. (especially necrons. Psychic gene-engineering, cloning and warp travel make the necrontyr look like absolute blithering idiots. Another more-better tech faction to mock the ancient 'masters' of the physical universe)

Voss wrote:

Hostile AI? Nope. Theirs are fine and friendly. The old cores are slow, but... whatever. With everything else, do they even need old god machines for anything beyond tradition? This may turn into something interesting, but nothing suggests they even need it.

*cough* Ancestor Core senility denier. *cough*

And people wonder why the subtlety for the T'au etherials was dropped.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Did you like 1W Primaris Marines? Necrons? How about every other hyper space technology faction with T4S4 BECAUSE WE'VE GOT AN ENTIRELY NEW FACTION BASED AROUND THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD!

Yeah, I can't really say the Votanites lore met the high standard that GW has put out with say, Primaris, or any lore whatsoever after 2019. It's just as silly if not more so.

Also their statlines leave a LOT to be desired. I expect their weapons to be silly good.

The statline was very unimaginative, I agree. They're basically old Manlet Marines but with A2 and a 4+.

I think it's impossible to judge the whole faction without seeing the whole model line, and digging into their codex for the lore. We just don't know anything right now.

I think the current revealed models look cool, but I want to see what other vehicles they have, characters, and what the different units will look like.

I just wish that they would do the basics well before introducing more half-baked gimmicky cash and IP grabs.

Voss wrote:


Tau had and have a problem with relevance, but they don't kick the setting's themes over.

Nu-squats, on the other hand, have it all.

I think your concerns are valid, but I also think that there may be a lot of assumptions being made about what little we've been given, and that the assumptions might be responsible for some of that concern.

Voss wrote:

Psychic abilities run rampant is one of the major themes of the setting. Squats? Can just turn it off. Encode usable but non-threatening psychic genes in whatever clone batches they like, with no chance of mutation. If they want a safe psychic race, they could just have that.

So what I recall reading was that only those with the correct clone-skin can manifest psychic powers.

This does not necessarily mean that there are exactly the desired amount of psykers; nobody mentioned whether or not black market clon-eskins exist, and what the impact of that might be. Theoretically, if there's a black market for clone-skins, the Votan could have just as many problems with "unsanctioned psykers" as the Imperium. The article also didn't indicate whether requiring the correct clone-skin to manifest psychic powers makes it any less likely that perils of the warp will occur when a psychic clone-skin manifests a power. Nothing was said about how many psychic clone-skins exist. And theoretically, the knowledge of clone-skins is likely contained in the Votann... which are becoming less and less reliable with the passage of time.

Voss wrote:

Cloning (and thus population booms beyond all reason, or population limits because 'dying race') Nope. They do cloning perfectly. Controlled mutation, none of the usual problems of cloning with limited gene-pool, poor, degrading copies, nothing. Its just fine and they can innovate on it to create new sub-strains and do whatever.

What I recall reading is that the Votann do hold the information required to reliably clone a predefined number of different clone-skins to fulfill the necessary roles within the society.

But I don't remember reading anything about whether that technological knowledge is beginning to be impacted by the instability of the Votann, or how the political leaders determine who gets access to clone-skins- do they decide for a family what it's children must be? Would it perhaps be more Grimdark if the HyrthBoss decides whether you get a soldier, a psyker, or an engineer... Or just a menial lackey? Because nothing we've been given suggests that the Leagues (at least some of them) AREN'T places where an autocratic madman with an army of super clones that no one else can access forces people to raise psykers and killers against their will.

Voss wrote:

Stagnant technology. Nope. They're fine, can innovate, progress and their guns are just even more better.

What I remember reading is that the Votann contain the information required to build a lot of technological items that have been lost to the Imperium.

I don't remember reading whether all Votann contain all the same technological knowledge- maybe one League's Votann knows how to create a particular weapon and does it well while the Votann of another League may not have that blueprint, or may refuse to create that item due to its increasing instability.

Voss wrote:

Hostile AI? Nope. Theirs are fine and friendly. The old cores are slow, but... whatever. With everything else, do they even need old god machines for anything beyond tradition? This may turn into something interesting, but nothing suggests they even need it.

I would say the opposite is true: nothing I recall reading has suggested that they DON'T need their Votann in order for their leagues to continue to function.

Voss wrote:

Warp travel. Well, they can do psychic barriers and AI navigation, so even that's fine. Hi, Tau and Necrons, you're idiots now. (especially necrons. Psychic gene-engineering, cloning and warp travel make the necrontyr look like absolute blithering idiots. Another more-better tech faction to mock the ancient 'masters' of the physical universe)

I'm not overly familiar with Necrons, so I can't compare the little I've read about LoV tech to the less I've read about Necron tech. But I don't remember reading that the Leagues have an easy time travelling through the warp- merely that a psychically empowered clone-skin is required to activate the "barrier tech" that allows Votann ships to enter (and presumably exit) the warp.

To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong- I started this post by saying that your concerns are valid and justified, and I stand by that. But I wanted to demonstrate that there are interpretations of the sparse information we've been given that very much DO support the idea that LoV ARE consistent with the grim-darkness of the setting.

SNIP- Duplicate post.

 solkan wrote:

Voss wrote:

Hostile AI? Nope. Theirs are fine and friendly. The old cores are slow, but... whatever. With everything else, do they even need old god machines for anything beyond tradition? This may turn into something interesting, but nothing suggests they even need it.

*cough* Ancestor Core senility denier. *cough*

And people wonder why the subtlety for the T'au etherials was dropped.

They can be a senile as you like. How that matters for the army... well, feel free to explain.
Does it impact who they fight? Does it mean stupid random tables a la the worst chaos books? 'Senility interference' in army composition like the dumb High Elf 'Intrigue at Court' rules?

Its like worrying about the mental health of High Lord of Terra #8. Who is that? What effect do they have on the setting? I'm sure someone out there probably knows, but for everyone else, when has it ever come up?
At best it impacts how the society functions. It could, admittedly could be somewhat interesting in an academic sort of way. For a lore forum, anyway. For the army, don't much care. Though right now, based on what they've released? I'm picturing the AI cores as Zardoz.

Either that or everyone goes about their day as normal while the Cores grind out an equation to warn of the tyranid attack that happened 200 years ago. For me, AI overlordship either tends toward a boring parable about human nature or doesn't really matter. Its like hearing a U2 song on the radio for the 500th time. Its just bland filler that makes me want to change the station. Other people may like it, but its not for me.

Edit: yeesh. I'm tired. This probably isn't completely comprehensible, but revising it again would just make it worse.


I have to admit, I've never seen the 'subtlety' for ethereals dropped. They sometimes get mentioned online as more sinister now, but... I haven't really read the rehash of Tau history in more recent books to play 'Spot the difference.' Does it change anything that they may twirl the odd mustache?

I love the fact that Squats are back. It's a dream come true.

I never thought this would ever happen. Ever.

And I'm glad that Squats, or Votann(whatever) are better suited as the "good guys" without any contradictory faults, than any other faction at the moment.

It's nice to have competent people who could actually exist and survive instead of this fascist/socialist/religious clown show every other race represents that can only exist in a fantasy setting.

The Kharadron almost had it right, with their view of creating constitutions, etc... Almost... But hey, if in GW games, dwarf races are the only ones that can actually be considered good guys, sign me up.

Voss wrote:
Stagnant technology. Nope. They're fine, can innovate, progress and their guns are just even more better.

I'm cherry-picking this a little because I'm not sure I understand your argument- stagnant technology is a trait of the Imperium, not the setting writ large. Tau are constantly innovating and progressing. Tyranids are developing new threats to the Imperium. Orks come up with new stuff from time to time. It's the dying, decaying empires of the setting- Eldar and the Imperium primarily- for whom stagnation is a core theme.

Same deal with AI, really. Tau have sentient AI, including one standing in for Aun'Va. Fear of hostile AI is an Imperial theme- though Tau do have hints that AI rebellion could be on the distant horizon, and nu-Squats explicitly state that not all Votann are what we would consider sane.

I mean, this is kind of what I was getting at; the Imperium is a gakky place where people act irrationally in service of a slowly decaying cargo cult of a regime. Another race succeeding where the Imperium failed isn't necessarily contrary to the setting, it's just highlighting the Imperium's problems. I think it's certainly possible for them to be written as ill-fitting Mary Sues, but I think it's also very possible to write them as a minor power with their own issues that nonetheless has avoided swirling down the drain like the Imperium is.

 BuFFo wrote:
I love the fact that Squats are back. It's a dream come true.

I never thought this would ever happen. Ever.

And I'm glad that Squats, or Votann(whatever) are better suited as the "good guys" without any contradictory faults, than any other faction at the moment.

It's nice to have competent people who could actually exist and survive instead of this fascist/socialist/religious clown show every other race represents that can only exist in a fantasy setting.

The Kharadron almost had it right, with their view of creating constitutions, etc... Almost... But hey, if in GW games, dwarf races are the only ones that can actually be considered good guys, sign me up.

So GW makes games where the hairy fat dudes who live in the basement and make stuff all day are the good guys.

Yep.

Someone knowns their fanbase.

(strokes beard lovingly)