Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BuFFo wrote:


It's nice to have competent people who could actually exist and survive instead of this fascist/socialist/religious clown show every other race represents that can only exist in a fantasy setting.

Yeah this is something that I do look forward to with LoV at least.

The general narrative and tone of the setting has been morphing over the last few years to portray the Imperium as good guys, or at the very least to present their awfulness as being totally justified and necessary. And then GW wonders why people of certain political persuasions keep flocking to the IP in ever greater numbers.

Voss wrote:
(especially necrons. Psychic gene-engineering, cloning and warp travel make the necrontyr look like absolute blithering idiots. Another more-better tech faction to mock the ancient 'masters' of the physical universe)

That's more of a problem with how Necrons are represented in the crunch. They should really operate more like Custodes than Robot Marines.

They are undead in space.So they should have some sort unending waves of things mechanic. Doesn't matter if it is through returning models or making the basic troopers tougher then the avarge thing. As long as they stick to the table it is good. The rest of the army should be super powerful "heroes" and powerful engines with rules representing the fact that just like tyranids they are a race that won their version of total war in a galaxy.

Maybe they should be a build for them with lots of bigger stuff, but I do worry that if GW did it we would just get a different version of NDK, Meatmountain, Crusher, Voidweaver spam etc

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Yeah, I can't really say the Votanites lore met the high standard that GW has put out with say, Primaris, or any lore whatsoever after 2019.

Dude, if you're going to say this sort of thing, please remember to include the /s at the end of your post.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So GW makes games where the hairy fat dudes who live in the basement and make stuff all day are the good guys.

Yep.

Someone knowns their fanbase.

(strokes beard lovingly)

A Dwarf being the "good guy" will always be an improvement on an Elf getting that moniker.

The Necromunda squats looks pretty great to me, I love their distinctive helmets.

The Leagues of Vhatever squats are not doing much for me yet but I’m content to see what else is in stock there. The new fluff seems kind of neat.

 catbarf wrote:

Voss wrote:
Stagnant technology. Nope. They're fine, can innovate, progress and their guns are just even more better.

I'm cherry-picking this a little because I'm not sure I understand your argument- stagnant technology is a trait of the Imperium, not the setting writ large. Tau are constantly innovating and progressing. Tyranids are developing new threats to the Imperium. Orks come up with new stuff from time to time. It's the dying, decaying empires of the setting- Eldar and the Imperium primarily- for whom stagnation is a core theme.

Same deal with AI, really. Tau have sentient AI, including one standing in for Aun'Va. Fear of hostile AI is an Imperial theme- though Tau do have hints that AI rebellion could be on the distant horizon, and nu-Squats explicitly state that not all Votann are what we would consider sane.

I mean, this is kind of what I was getting at; the Imperium is a gakky place where people act irrationally in service of a slowly decaying cargo cult of a regime. Another race succeeding where the Imperium failed isn't necessarily contrary to the setting, it's just highlighting the Imperium's problems. I think it's certainly possible for them to be written as ill-fitting Mary Sues, but I think it's also very possible to write them as a minor power with their own issues that nonetheless has avoided swirling down the drain like the Imperium is.

It absolutely is. _Anyone_ succeeding is contrary to the setting. Especially if they have already solved the exact problems that brought down everyone else.
Tau are still new to the galaxy, they just haven't stepped far enough out to be slapped down. Orks and Tyranids are more obstacles than species/cultures. They just keep doing what they're (biologically) programmed to do.

The setting is one without hope. Having human descendants (or anyone) with all the answers just built in, feels unearned and off-brand. Almost anyone could have done the same, but apparently just chose not to.
That its also furthering the 'more gun' lethality escalation doesn't help either.

If succeeding is contrary to the setting the Orks should be written out as they always succeed and have a good time doing it.

 Gert wrote:
If succeeding is contrary to the setting the Orks should be written out as they always succeed and have a good time doing it.

Ork success doesn't matter. There's no 'progress,' just another upcoming warlord that will do the same things the same way.
They're an obstacle for other species, not something that will change the setting. If no one else is around, they'll drag themselves back down to their normal level of squabble.

War of the Beast says otherwise my guy.

Orks succeed in the same way Slaaneshi cultists succeed - their psychology is so warped that success is different.

Like being enslaved by a brutal daemonic tyrant may be success for a Slaaneshi cultist - but that hardly counts as "successful"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orks succeed in the same way Slaaneshi cultists succeed - their psychology is so warped that success is different.

Like being enslaved by a brutal daemonic tyrant may be success for a Slaaneshi cultist - but that hardly counts as "successful"

Why doesn't it count as successful? The cultist wanted to be dominated by a superior lifeform and it got dominated.
Success is an entirely subjective matter. I recently moved to a new job further from home and with lower pay but I am far happier there. From a perspective of making money, it wasn't a successful move, but from a perspective of good mental health, it was a success.

Lore-wise, I think they sound awesome so far. A great update on the originals with new some stuff mixed in.

But their models, from what we've seen, have just felt so boring and uninspired in terms of having their own unique identity. They come across as just generic sci-fi without anything to make them have their own distinct theme / interesting aesthetic compared to something like the Kharadon overlords. Not even much in the way of the Dwarf theme, I by no means think they should all have been over-the-top with their Dwarfy design elements, but they don't really have any of it outside of some slight patterns on the Exo-armour and the bolter. Even Grendlesen had more to to tie them into the whole feeling of "Proud martial culture with a long history" with the dwarf head icons on his backpack,belt and weapon. I like the idea of DaOT sci-fi Dwarfs, but their look feels like it's missing something beyond that basic idea of sci-fi armour.

 Gert wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Orks succeed in the same way Slaaneshi cultists succeed - their psychology is so warped that success is different.

Like being enslaved by a brutal daemonic tyrant may be success for a Slaaneshi cultist - but that hardly counts as "successful"

Why doesn't it count as successful? The cultist wanted to be dominated by a superior lifeform and it got dominated.
Success is an entirely subjective matter. I recently moved to a new job further from home and with lower pay but I am far happier there. From a perspective of making money, it wasn't a successful move, but from a perspective of good mental health, it was a success.

Not to speak for others in the thread, but I think the definition of success they are using is from an out-of-universe perspective rather than an in-universe perspective. You seem to be equivocating between the two.

But I am uncertain.

There isn't a difference because its still subjective.
To some the Imperium is a success because its lasted 10k years without being utterly destroyed. To others the T'au are a failure because they haven't beaten everyone.

Whilst it is nice to see them back in the setting I have to say, just from personal taste, that I couldn't be less interested in this faction if I tried - based on the reveals to date.

Bland, generic sci-fi short people, filler imho. I think this was an appease the fans and stop the memes idea. In short (pun fully intended) it looks like a lazy, nostalgia cash grab reboot. Unlike Sisters revamp which seems ace.

Without a doubt, they are not a faction for me. To the point they likely will unseat my personal preference of factions I have least likely to have any interest in. Which is currently Sisters of Battle (sorry, not sorry). So, take everything I say as coming from a super non-(in the most apathetic way possible) fan.

Leagues of Votann seem to be Primaris space marines for people that hate space marines and especially hate Primaris space marines to me. Sure, they are more squat (that's a pun, BTW), but they don't seem all that removed from the same cloth that borne Primaris space marines. Which I like, but obviously have little appeal to the typical Dakkanuat (read: people largely who believe 3rd-5th ed was the pinnacle of 40k). They have that smooth rounded shape, and modern GW sensibilities in the models GW has shown. While revealing little of the endearingly stupid that makes 40k so much fun.

And from the little I have seen on their lore, LoV appear to not have that fasc-sh policatical baggage some kiddies seem to hate that comes with space marines (the previous sentence was a bad impression borne more of alcohol than sense). To the point, I don't really see who the LoV are going to appeal to... in the broader sense.

Space marine fans have space marines already, LoV (so far) don't seem like the Squats of old and I don't see them connecting with the sensibilities of modern (younger players) audience. Though, that last one is an incredible stretch on my end, as I haven't been with 'it' in nearly a decade.

All-in all, I think the Leagues of Votann have a very, very, VERY long way to the top if they want to rock n' roll. Composed of tiny bits of things a bunch of different groups could like about them, but overloaded with crap they may not look past to actually collect them to make armies to play games with.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Whilst it is nice to see them back in the setting I have to say, just from personal taste, that I couldn't be less interested in this faction if I tried - based on the reveals to date.

Bland, generic sci-fi short people, filler imho. I think this was an appease the fans and stop the memes idea. In short (pun fully intended) it looks like a lazy, nostalgia cash grab reboot. Unlike Sisters revamp which seems ace.

Imagine though, that all you had seen was a standard battle sister, the novitiates kill team and the Castigator. Would you still be impressed with sisters?

Because that's roughly analogous to what we've seen of the Votann so far.

So have they explained how 10k years have passed, and no one knew they existed until now? Because I would think someone would see massive fleets of Space Dwarfs. What is the lore answer on this?

I like the lore so far, except their only flaw seems to be their supercomputers are slowing down. There could be more downsides to their race than what's been released so far, and there could be cool things done with the computers slowing down (like a faction that's gone feral with the collapse of their computer). The lore needs to be fleshed out more.

While I like the lore, I don't like the models and I don't like how GW is trying to sell them as updated Squats. They aren't Squats, they're an entirely new faction that GW has (rather lazily) thrown the Dwarf motif over. If GW had released this as a new alien faction with the lore intact I'd have been very happy, but this feels like a Hollywood soft reboot - take an existing idea, tweak it enough that it can be considered new/"update" it with modern sensibilities, then use nostalgia/legacy as a marketing tool. It's lazy and creatively bankrupt, and leaves me feeling the same way about movies these days - not worth my time.

GW had already released those incredible Necromunda Squat models. They NAILED the surly grease-monkey space Dwarf look with them, I don't understand why they made just those two and then abandoned the aesthetic in favour of the bland sleek sci-fi look GW keeps on squeezing out. The future releases may change my opinion, but I'm fairly disheartened with what I've seen so far. Time will tell.

Personally speaking, I feel like it's a missed opportunity to show off a new alien faction that has a less humanoid aspect that they missed out on after they focused on battlesuits rather than the alien confederation aspect of Tau. Having yet another human-based faction (even if it's explicitly not Imperial) doesn't really interest me, especially when the actual humans in the setting like IG are far behind in terms of both rules and models when compared to the cash cow that are marines, even though guardsmen are the main fighting force of the Imperium. I'd much rather they take the time to flesh them out or create a new xenos faction that really emphasizes them as something that isn't a sci-fi spin off of a fantasy race.

Hey everyone:

Squats aren't aliens. They never have been. They were abhumans since Rogue Trader.

If you thought they were aliens then, you're not as attached to the old lore as you thought you were.

If you think they're aliens now, you aren't reading very carefully.

PenitentJake wrote:
Squats aren't aliens. They never have been.

They were when they were brought back as Demiurg.

 catbarf wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Squats aren't aliens. They never have been.

They were when they were brought back as Demiurg.

Demiurge got what? 2 BFG ships and a single bit of concept art. Not really a 'bringing back' just more of a trial balloon that popped and was forgotten.

Didn't one of the first fluff updates state that the League were remnants of a race that left Terra to mine the galaxy?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Lore-wise, I think they sound awesome so far. A great update on the originals with new some stuff mixed in.

But their models, from what we've seen, have just felt so boring and uninspired in terms of having their own unique identity. They come across as just generic sci-fi without anything to make them have their own distinct theme / interesting aesthetic compared to something like the Kharadon overlords. Not even much in the way of the Dwarf theme, I by no means think they should all have been over-the-top with their Dwarfy design elements, but they don't really have any of it outside of some slight patterns on the Exo-armour and the bolter. Even Grendlesen had more to to tie them into the whole feeling of "Proud martial culture with a long history" with the dwarf head icons on his backpack,belt and weapon. I like the idea of DaOT sci-fi Dwarfs, but their look feels like it's missing something beyond that basic idea of sci-fi armour.

Their cogitators, the heavy armour guys, and the art that shows their heroes and the insides of their clone ships is more in line with the AoS dwarf feel, then the very sci fi line infantry troopers.

Id prefer they looked more like fantasy stunties in space but accept i seem to be in a ninority there. Im not blown away but still excited with what they come up with, mostly regarding lore and miniatures.

PenitentJake wrote:
Hey everyone:

Squats aren't aliens. They never have been. They were abhumans since Rogue Trader.

If you thought they were aliens then, you're not as attached to the old lore as you thought you were.

If you think they're aliens now, you aren't reading very carefully.

No one in this thread has claimed they are aliens, then or now.

Reading carefully indeed.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So have they explained how 10k years have passed, and no one knew they existed until now? Because I would think someone would see massive fleets of Space Dwarfs. What is the lore answer on this?

Galaxy is big

To quote The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Squats aren't aliens. They never have been.

They were when they were brought back as Demiurg.

Demiurge got what? 2 BFG ships and a single bit of concept art. Not really a 'bringing back' just more of a trial balloon that popped and was forgotten.

To be fair I think that's because BFG by the time Tau appeared was already on life-support if I recall right (Forgeworld only releases and not much from the core company for a long while).

Meanwhile Tau had the entire Xenos allies aspect for them basically dropped when the battle suits took off. Heck even Kroot haven't had anything beyond I think one character a few months back or something, and they were the stars of the alien allied forces.


But yeah Demiurge were going to be the return of the concept of Dwarfs in Space. It just never panned out and then I think GW changed CEO's; did some actual consumer research and realised that Squats could potentially sell through nostalgic power. Why bring in a new force that every "old timer" will call Squats anyway when you can bring them back "for real".


And yep space is huge, there are several Xenos species that survive even with the Imperium's super xenophobic attitude. Heck the last core rulebook even teases a few of those races.