Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
But honestly do you believe the CSM codex is worse or much worse than the necrons, TS, GK, orks, SM and all of their supplements, adepta sororitas, deathguard, chaos knights, gen cults or the custodes ones?

Yes I do believe it's worse than all of those codexes (well maybe not Thousand Sons or Death Guard), because I don't play at a high level and don't care about broken wombo combos but do care about insane restrictions on wargear and deletion of units.

Samus666 wrote:I'm really unhappy with it. We have fewer units than in the 8e codex, and a lot of the remaining units have had their wargear options gutted. Comparing codex to codex directly, you could say the legion rules are a nice addition, but these were already available in supplements.

Marks that actually do something are nice to have, but only certain units can have them, and Icons have also been restricted to specific units now.

We've lost way more than we've gained, basically. Power aside (and I really don't care about such things) the new codex stinks.

Thirded.
It's just more cut content and streamlining, sadly GW insist on doing so to many a faction and people seem often to just accept it.

Well, my post was clearly an answer to someone that was comparing the CSM codex to the other books in terms of power.

Otherwise I can agree with you. In fact I think the drukhari codex is bad for the same reason you are disappointed for the CSM one. And the 8th edition one was bad as well, it actually made me sell my collection. And I could have fielded multiple OP lists with what I had, in fact I sold the models in an instant. For some posters saying that a codex is bad or not good when that faction is solid top tier (without even spamming anything) is something they can't possibly understand and accept. I'm glad not everyone thinks that way though.

I'm no expert of Chaos stuff, so my rating about the army is based on that. I think CSM can do pretty well and regardless of what they might have lost they have a nice wide roster. That makes a codex a good one for the game (even if die hard fans are disappointed), I mean compared to the other books, although maybe not so much compared to the faction's history.

Also, removing and merging stuff is not always a bad thing, generally speaking (I'm not saying this about the CSM stuff in particular). But it's actually what legions of players are asking to reduce the bloat.

 Blackie wrote:
Well, my post was clearly an answer to someone that was comparing the CSM codex to the other books in terms of power.

Otherwise I can agree with you. In fact I think the drukhari codex is bad for the same reason you are disappointed for the CSM one. And the 8th edition one was bad as well, it actually made me sell my collection. And I could have fielded multiple OP lists with what I had, in fact I sold the models in an instant. For some posters saying that a codex is bad or not good when that faction is solid top tier (without even spamming anything) is something they can't possibly understand and accept. I'm glad not everyone thinks that way though.

I'm no expert of Chaos stuff, so my rating about the army is based on that. I think CSM can do pretty well and regardless of what they might have lost they have a nice wide roster. That makes a codex a good one for the game (even if die hard fans are disappointed), I mean compared to the other books, although maybe not so much compared to the faction's history.

Also, removing and merging stuff is not always a bad thing, generally speaking (I'm not saying this about the CSM stuff in particular). But it's actually what legions of players are asking to reduce the bloat.

Then they should curb some options that make sense of factions that should be more standardised cue the main offender SM and not do it halfassed because GW can't be bothered to propperly playtest and NOT reimplement double shooting and Votwl stratagmes available to CSM squads and then turn around and in an haphazard attempt to stiffle issues remove doubling up as an option on a unit that already suffers severly for being unspecialisable.

as for the power thing, I think the issue is, considering the recent powerspikes, that the fact that it doesn't "break the game" is an sign that it will be outperformed very soonish.
The same could be said at the time for the GSC dex, which was fairly well balanced but between Tau and Custodes didn't have much to say.

Not Online!!! wrote:


as for the power thing, I think the issue is, considering the recent powerspikes, that the fact that it doesn't "break the game" is an sign that it will be outperformed very soonish.
The same could be said at the time for the GSC dex, which was fairly well balanced but between Tau and Custodes didn't have much to say.

I'm an optimist and I'd say that if it doesn't break the game is a sign that it will be top tiers very soonish. Since it's the current top tiers that will be nerfed.

 Blackie wrote:
But honestly do you believe the CSM codex is worse or much worse than the necrons, TS, GK, orks, SM and all of their supplements, adepta sororitas, deathguard, chaos knights, gen cults or the custodes ones?

Other than the lazy implementations, lack of representative models (NL can't field a jump lord for the first time since the introduction of the legion), and the fact that it's completely hostile to new players (who also can't buy the most competitive models in the codex because they're not even available for pre-order), the rules are fine.

If you're a long time CSM player, you probably have the models to represent what's in the codex pretty effectively. If you're a Black Legion/Abaddon fanboy, you're probably pretty happy. If you've got a small subset of models, you're probably variously happy with some of the other legions as long as you stay in your lane.

I think I will like the Codex because of my chosen play style, but I really do empathize with the dissatisfied players on this one.

I think the great tragedy of this dex is how stunningly easy it would have been to avoid the things about it that everyone hates.

Like really, more than half the complaints I've seen are about jump packs. How easy would it have been to not feth that up?

PenitentJake wrote:
I think I will like the Codex because of my chosen play style, but I really do empathize with the dissatisfied players on this one.

I think the great tragedy of this dex is how stunningly easy it would have been to avoid the things about it that everyone hates.

Like really, more than half the complaints I've seen are about jump packs. How easy would it have been to not feth that up?

Not just Jumppacks, but also the removal of double shooting and Votwl aswell as not restricting CSM squads loadouts aswell as not removing the specialisation options via combiweapons for either Chosen and terminators.
Further the avoidance of the hairbrained restrictions of Icons and marks and finaly added customizability to the minor HQ as to make them integrate far easier into differing armies, especially for the aspiring champion,

And yeah, it certainly wouldn't have required a scientist to achieve that.

For sure- there are obviously more problems than just jump packs... I'm just saying that in particular is the complaint I've seen most frequently.

But yes, the load out stuff would have been just as easy to avoid- especially after seeing the community reaction to the Plague Marine load out.

I come to this dex and this army lucky- I've got a fair number of CSM models still in boxes, so I get to build my army using this dex- one of the other reasons I know I will likely still enjoy the book, despite its faults.

If my army had been built using a dex from another edition, I don't know if I'd be able to say that.

 Blackie wrote:
Also, removing and merging stuff is not always a bad thing, generally speaking (I'm not saying this about the CSM stuff in particular). But it's actually what legions of players are asking to reduce the bloat.

Those players are wrong, though.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Also, removing and merging stuff is not always a bad thing, generally speaking (I'm not saying this about the CSM stuff in particular). But it's actually what legions of players are asking to reduce the bloat.

Those players are wrong, though.

They're not. GW just doesn't grasp the details and does things in the worst possible way.

Blackie 806046 11401400 wrote: But it's actually what legions of players are asking to reduce the bloat.

You know fine well that isn't what they mean.

PenitentJake wrote:
Like really, more than half the complaints I've seen are about jump packs. How easy would it have been to not feth that up?

It would have been very difficult. Making new molds for plastic kits is expensive. There may not even be room on the sprue for a jump pack, so adding the option would mean either removing other options or adding an entire additional sprue with matching price increase. And then once the new kit is made you have all the logistics issues of getting it into stores and replacing stocks of the old kit. Balanced against that you have the far greater money to be made from putting an entirely new kit into that release slot. Is it really worth paying that cost just to satisfy a handful of players in an NPC faction?

CadianSgtBob wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Like really, more than half the complaints I've seen are about jump packs. How easy would it have been to not feth that up?

It would have been very difficult. Making new molds for plastic kits is expensive. There may not even be room on the sprue for a jump pack, so adding the option would mean either removing other options or adding an entire additional sprue with matching price increase. And then once the new kit is made you have all the logistics issues of getting it into stores and replacing stocks of the old kit. Balanced against that you have the far greater money to be made from putting an entirely new kit into that release slot. Is it really worth paying that cost just to satisfy a handful of players in an NPC faction?

They put a jump pack lord on rotation right before the codex came out.
And its trivially easy to kitbash.

No new model needed (though one would have been nice), they just... could have not taken it away.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Like really, more than half the complaints I've seen are about jump packs. How easy would it have been to not feth that up?

It would have been very difficult. Making new molds for plastic kits is expensive. There may not even be room on the sprue for a jump pack, so adding the option would mean either removing other options or adding an entire additional sprue with matching price increase. And then once the new kit is made you have all the logistics issues of getting it into stores and replacing stocks of the old kit. Balanced against that you have the far greater money to be made from putting an entirely new kit into that release slot. Is it really worth paying that cost just to satisfy a handful of players in an NPC faction?

It does get more complicated if you're thinking beyond the datasheet, given the inconsistent application of No Model No Rules. My assumption, when I wrote the post, was that GW could get away with just reprinting the datacard given the ease of conversion. I also wasn't sure if the former model was plastic or resin- it could have been kept if the former and rotated out if the later (as an end run around No Model No Rules).

You are correct though- thinking about the modeling piece does make it more complicated, which in the end is probably why they did it the way they did.

They could just leave it in and post official conversion guides in WD then link those articles online.

Or failing that, just leave it in and let players figure out how to do it like they managed perfectly well for 30+ years.

Voss wrote:
And its trivially easy to kitbash.

Kitbashing is not permitted anymore. There must be a precise 1:1 relation between the parts in the box and the unit rules.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Voss wrote:
And its trivially easy to kitbash.

Kitbashing is not permitted anymore. There must be a precise 1:1 relation between the parts in the box and the unit rules.

The rules in the 9th edition CSM codex allow kitbashing for the following kits just off of the top of my head: Legionaries, Havocs, Bikers, and yes, Chaos Lords in power armour. Though you'd be getting closer to conversion territory if you wanted to arm the current "official" Chaos Lord model with anything but the provided plasma pistol + thunder hammer.

Of course they could have just written rules based on the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model that they've been selling for the past 2 decades, instead of "rotating" it mere weeks before the release of the codex, and obviously far after it's actual writing, and most likely even printing.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Voss wrote:
And its trivially easy to kitbash.

Kitbashing is not permitted anymore. There must be a precise 1:1 relation between the parts in the box and the unit rules.

1. For years, there was a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model available, and armed with Lightning Claws no less. I'm not sure what kind of time limit is fair to impose on OoP models, if indeed any at all, but it was newer than a lot of other kits still in production and supported in the rules.
2. The no-model-no-rules thing is extremely inconsistent in its application. Off the top of my head I can immediately think of all the Loyalist SM options with Bikes and Jump Packs, plus there is the Grand Master NDK. Even within the CSM book you can still take alternative Defiler loadouts, combi-options where the kit doesn't have them, and Bikers can have special weapons.
3. Right now, you can go to the official GW site and buy a Chaos Lord with a Combi-Flamer, and Sorcerers with Swords and Axes. Why were those options removed? It's such a miniscule thing that I cannot imagine it possibly affecting balance, and it just seems to have been done to save a line of space of a weapon table or to spite players holding on to old miniatures. Meanwhile, players are now left with the need to rearm 100% legitimate models or inform their opponent why their models are not WYSIWYG.

Mozzamanx wrote:
2. The no-model-no-rules thing is extremely inconsistent in its application. Off the top of my head I can immediately think of all the Loyalist SM options with Bikes and Jump Packs, plus there is the Grand Master NDK. Even within the CSM book you can still take alternative Defiler loadouts, combi-options where the kit doesn't have them, and Bikers can have special weapons.

I wouldn't get used to any of those things.

1. For years, there was a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack model available, and armed with Lightning Claws no less.

And now there isn't so there isn't an option in the codex anymore.

 Blackie wrote:


I do live in a dimension in which pre-game talk is not only allowed but encouraged and where toning down or up the lists in order to have a more balanced game is the standard procedure between players who know each other.

What do you do when one player insists that the reason he's winning is his superior skill, and the other says it's because the factions are unbalanced?

And what do you do when you both know the codexes are unbalanced but it would take hours of work to rebalance things?

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Voss wrote:
And its trivially easy to kitbash.

Kitbashing is not permitted anymore. There must be a precise 1:1 relation between the parts in the box and the unit rules.

Even if I were to take you seriously, that's written where in the rules?

 Blackie wrote:
Also, removing and merging stuff is not always a bad thing, generally speaking (I'm not saying this about the CSM stuff in particular). But it's actually what legions of players are asking to reduce the bloat.

But they haven't done that. Removing Jump Packs, Lightning Claws and Combi-Weapons as general options doesn't decrease bloat, it just decreases options. If they wanted to decrease bloat then they wouldn't have written a book with ninety-seven stratagems.

Meanwhile, streamlining all various forms of power weapons into a single profile yet at the same time putting kit-based restrictions on power fists, chain fists and combi-weapons does nothing but confuse matters, as with one hand you're attempting to simplify things, and with the other hand needlessly complicating matters.

Voss wrote:
Even if I were to take you seriously, that's written where in the rules?

It's written in the rules where options that can't be built from a single box are removed. "No model, no rules" is what GW wants. If you can't build a squad with two plasma guns directly out of a single box because there's only one plasma gun on the sprue the unit's datasheet gets a ban on duplicate weapons. If the specific HQ box doesn't include a jump pack then the rules don't allow one. I'm not sure what you think is controversial here, this is clearly GW's intent for how 40k is going to work now. Options that can't be built directly out of a single box are living on borrowed time.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Voss wrote:
Even if I were to take you seriously, that's written where in the rules?

It's written in the rules where options that can't be built from a single box are removed. "No model, no rules" is what GW wants. If you can't build a squad with two plasma guns directly out of a single box because there's only one plasma gun on the sprue the unit's datasheet gets a ban on duplicate weapons. If the specific HQ box doesn't include a jump pack then the rules don't allow one. I'm not sure what you think is controversial here, this is clearly GW's intent for how 40k is going to work now. Options that can't be built directly out of a single box are living on borrowed time.

It's also super inconsistently applied. For example, Deathwatch lost access to model options for NO specific reason. It clearly wasn't because of balance. Meanwhile, you can't do a Blightlord squad with all one melee weapon but somehow you're allowed to equip all of them per the datasheet. HOWEVER you only get one of each combi-weapon.

It's fething stupid.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
It's fething stupid.

To be clear, I absolutely agree that it's a stupid decision by GW and NMNR needs to die. But it's the reason for why jump pack HQs are gone.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
It's fething stupid.

To be clear, I absolutely agree that it's a stupid decision by GW and NMNR needs to die. But it's the reason for why jump pack HQs are gone.

No, it isn't. The Chaos Lord kit also doesn't contain a power sword, powerfist, power axe, or"tainted" chainaxe, but all those are allowed. Legionaries don't come with lascannons, either in the current box, or the ETB kit from the old SC box, but those are an option. No power sword either. Havocs don't come with a power sword, powerfist, power axe, tainted chainaxe, or bolter for the Aspiring Champion, but those are all options as well. Raptor Aspiring Champions can't have lighting claws, despite there being 10 of them in the kit. Raptors can double up on specials while only having one of each per kit, Legionaries can't.

Some kitbashes/conversions are allowed, others not. This has nothing to do with NMNR. It's completely arbitrary.

And you're still ignoring the fact that the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack was on sale when this book was written and only "rotated out" weeks before its release.

The CSM kit doesn't contain duplicates of special weapons and neither does the Raptor kit. Yet, the Raptors can take duplicate weapons, whereas the CSM cannot. Meanwhile, Bikers can take things that aren't part of their kit and never have been outside of ancient metal conversion parts that are long OOP. And Chosen come with a Power Fist on the sprue, yet can't take one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If they wanted to decrease bloat then they wouldn't have written a book with ninety-seven stratagems

Holy hell I knew it was bad but had no idea it was that bad

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This has nothing to do with NMNR. It's completely arbitrary.

You can believe that. It's still not a convincing explanation when it's entirely in line with NMNR and there's no alternative explanation besides "LOL GW RANDUMB".

And you're still ignoring the fact that the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack was on sale when this book was written and only "rotated out" weeks before its release.

What about it? Do you not think that GW knew about the rotation before it happened? It may have been on sale as GW cleared out the last of the inventory but well before that point it would have been designated for retirement. The obvious answer here is that GW had made the decision to discontinue the model before the codex was handed off for printing and the available options in the codex reflect this plan.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This has nothing to do with NMNR. It's completely arbitrary.

You can believe that. It's still not a convincing explanation when it's entirely in line with NMNR and there's no alternative explanation besides "LOL GW RANDUMB".

Nope. To reiterate:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, it isn't. The Chaos Lord kit also doesn't contain a power sword, powerfist, power axe, or"tainted" chainaxe, but all those are allowed. Legionaries don't come with lascannons, either in the current box, or the ETB kit from the old SC box, but those are an option. No power sword either. Havocs don't come with a power sword, powerfist, power axe, tainted chainaxe, or bolter for the Aspiring Champion, but those are all options as well. Raptor Aspiring Champions can't have lighting claws, despite there being 10 of them in the kit. Raptors can double up on specials while only having one of each per kit, Legionaries can't.

None of this fits NMNR. It doesn't really fit anything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

CadianSgtBob wrote:

And you're still ignoring the fact that the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack was on sale when this book was written and only "rotated out" weeks before its release.

What about it? Do you not think that GW knew about the rotation before it happened? It may have been on sale as GW cleared out the last of the inventory but well before that point it would have been designated for retirement. The obvious answer here is that GW had made the decision to discontinue the model before the codex was handed off for printing and the available options in the codex reflect this plan.

No, again. The model was "rotated out", which according to gw, means that it will eventually be rotated back in. And they're still selling the Night Lords Chaos Lord, with an illegal loadout (he's armed with a combi-weapon). So no, it isn't NMNR.