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Dudeface wrote:
I mean if you have 1600 points of combi weapon chosen/terminators, jump lords, raptor champions with claws and cult units you don't want to buy other rules for, that sucks. But its far from ordinary.

The only other Codex that had this was GSC with Brood Brothers, which you needed the Guard Codex for if you wanted anything that wasn't the Russ, Troop unit, Chimera, or Sentinel. Even with that the limitations on Brood Brothers are that you can't use units without the <Regiment> keyword or units with a pre-ordained <Regiment>, which means no NCs, Commissars, Priests, Techpriests, Ogryns, or aircraft. This leaves literally every other option in the Codex from Infantry squads to Baneblades.
In comparison, CSM lost all but Noise Marines and only gets access to Plague Marines, Rubrics, and Berzerkers from those respective Codexes/Index. Hardly "ordinary" is it?
And as for the quip at the start, my Terminators aren't legal, most my 10-man units of CSM now have to be split into 5 which means less space for other Troop options, I need to buy 3 times as many Codexes just to use my main Elites choices, my Chosen have an illegal loadout, as does my Exalted Champion. So that leaves me with a Lord, a MoE, some Sorcerers, two 10-man units of CSM down from 4, 2 Helbrutes, and a Land Raider.

 Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Still does not change the fact they are not invalidated. The fact GW wants you to pay an arm and a leg for that privilege is irrelevant.

40k is already an expensive hobby, paying 1 or 3 books is irrelevant

if price is a problem, this is the wrong game anyway

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Be sure to write to GW about your decision and how they've invalidated so much of your army.

I encourage all Chaos players to do the same.

Once I've finished my runthrough of the book I'll be collecting my thoughts in a letter as well.

i already complained to them about the loss of my jump pack HQs and about the weird restrictions on combi weapons / power fists /chain fists. I did note that accursed weapons was a good idea IMO tho, i just wish it had been applied to every datasheet so we wouldnt have power axe/maul/sword anymore in the whole dex


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Not Online!!! wrote:


indeed. However the Moe specifically is wasted design space.

the fact that the MoE exists, and isn't just another loadout option for an aspiring champion is already a design failure, the fact that like the aspiring champion he has no options to speak of beyond relics or WLT^'s is... euugh.

it's just not a good datasheet.

IMO the codex should have 3 Character datasheet

Exalted Legionnaire
Exalted Cultist
Demon Prince

and then each of them should have ALL relevant weapon/armor/mount/special ability listed on them.

Wanna make a psyker on helstalker, a lord on bike or an exalted champion with two plasma pistol, go for it


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 Sim-Life wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Strange, as the "too many options" complaint wasn't heard once with Tau.

I'm going to assume you mean neither competitive player or casual complained about too many option, which they didn't because it's not clear what you're refering to. All player love options, its about the only time casual and competitive people will agree. But GW thinks simplified rules (in terms of variety such as with Chaos terminator power weapons) are easier to balance. Thats why most special rules now are now some form of +/-1 modifier, reroll aura or whatnot. Balance is something competitive players demand and casual players are fairly "ech" about.

power weapons being merged into accursed weapons was a great idea IMO, Axe/Maul/Sword were too similar anyway, now we actually get more freedom to model them as we want to match the fluff of our legion.

The real annoyance is the limitations on combi-weapons/power fists/chain fists and the fact that we can't take a pair of accursed weapons on every termi. I hate mixed loadouts like that, makes resolving an attack so much longer for no good reason


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 Dysartes wrote:
Didn't the CSM 'dex include something that allowed the Cult units no longer in the book to still be used in Heretic Astartes detachments without breaking 'dex-special-rules?

yes it does, you can add cult marines but they don't benefit from legion traits


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

Sure let me just spend another £90 on three more Codexes for the one unit per book.

just go on wahapedia and print the datasheet (since thats the only relevant part of these codexes for your situation) Or ask a local player that owns these codexes to scan the datasheet. Or use battlescribe. Or manually transcribe the datasheet into excel.

Plenty of ways to have these units in your armies without paying gak to GW

carefull you could enter HH level customisation level which would confuse players and facilitate:

- kitbashing
- actual army lists with an actual strategy and tactic in the field

-and by extention allow 3rd parties again to slip in, wait Monopose already made it easier

Not Online!!! wrote:
carefull you could enter HH level customisation level which would confuse players and facilitate:

- kitbashing
- actual army lists with an actual strategy and tactic in the field

-and by extention allow 3rd parties again to slip in, wait Monopose already made it easier

oh, HH deals with their characters like that? I was basing myself off OPR's way to design characters

yeah,i really gotta take a look at HH


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so, GW just released (updated?) the legends page for our HQ options

https://bit.ly/3RME2Qj

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
carefull you could enter HH level customisation level which would confuse players and facilitate:

- kitbashing
- actual army lists with an actual strategy and tactic in the field

-and by extention allow 3rd parties again to slip in, wait Monopose already made it easier

oh, HH deals with their characters like that? I was basing myself off OPR's way to design characters

yeah,i really gotta take a look at HH

Centurion 3 variants (normal PA, Cataphractii and tartaros), basically is either:

Big medic,
Duelist,
Bannerbearer
Psyker
Assasin.
Special legion centurions, etc.


big Options of the normal centurion:
Jetbike
Jumppack
bike.

Not even all of the things.

Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions, even if he does have to keep a combi-weapon and can never choose not to have one...

... all in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

And it still doesn't let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws, Chosen take fists, or remove the infuriating and utterly unnecessary quagmire of weapon combinations that Terminators are allowed/not allowed to take.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions...

... in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

And it still doesn't let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws, Chosen take fists, or remove the infuriating and utterly unnecessary quagmire of weapon combinations that Terminators are allowed/not allowed to take.

yeah its not perfect but its something. For me its fine since everyone at my LGS is fine with legends. So at least my characters will make a comeback

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions, even if he does have to keep a combi-weapon and can never choose not to have one...

... all in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

It's funny how those people were all fine with you taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack yesterday (meaning the day before the new Codex arrived) but today, now that the same option is available via Legends, they're all opposed to it.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions...

... in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

And it still doesn't let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws, Chosen take fists, or remove the infuriating and utterly unnecessary quagmire of weapon combinations that Terminators are allowed/not allowed to take.

yeah its not perfect but its something. For me its fine since everyone at my LGS is fine with legends. So at least my characters will make a comeback

Until next edition, where they will be so disfunctional that nobody will accept them, because legends is just a dishonest squating on time. Sincerly former R&H player

ccs wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions, even if he does have to keep a combi-weapon and can never choose not to have one...

... all in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

It's funny how those people were all fine with you taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack yesterday (meaning the day before the new Codex arrived) but today, now that the same option is available via Legends, they're all opposed to it.

Well, maybee not tommorow, but watch next edition inevitably come around and you will only get ire if you want to bring legends.

That legends update is insulting. They fixed Lord weapons and jump pack options, but Chosen and Terminators are still borked and they didn't add Mutilators (and I'm sure there's more that's still screwed up besides those things). Feth me GW, do you think you never sold Mutilators?!?

Just always the absolute bare fething minimum to mollify the loudest complaints. What a load of crap.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Until next edition, where they will be so disfunctional that nobody will accept them, because legends is just a dishonest squating on time. Sincerly former R&H player

well my lord on steed of slaanesh is still legal even if it's been in legends since 8th. Even if my lord on jumppack gets squatted, i'll keep playing him anyway, feth GW's dumbass decisions.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Until next edition, where they will be so disfunctional that nobody will accept them, because legends is just a dishonest squating on time. Sincerly former R&H player

well my lord on steed of slaanesh is still legal even if it's been in legends since 8th. Even if my lord on jumppack gets squatted, i'll keep playing him anyway, feth GW's dumbass decisions.

Sure, however at some point People will also, especially in not close knit groups decide to feth you and your legends models



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
That legends update is insulting. They fixed Lord weapons and jump pack options, but Chosen and Terminators are still borked and they didn't add Mutilators (and I'm sure there's more that's still screwed up besides those things). Feth me GW, do you think you never sold Mutilators?!?

Just always the absolute bare fething minimum to mollify the loudest complaints. What a load of crap.

I wonder when GW will finally take away Space marine bike HQ and Jumppack HQ, clearly some of them aren't in production anymore and they could provide an unfair advntage...
Oh wait, that's not how this works.

It's mindboggling and i hope GW will get gak on for this, but then again the community dind't give to gaks when three whole factions got Legended, watch the community at large being A O K with this aswell

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
That legends update is insulting. They fixed Lord weapons and jump pack options, but Chosen and Terminators are still borked and they didn't add Mutilators (and I'm sure there's more that's still screwed up besides those things). Feth me GW, do you think you never sold Mutilators?!?

Just always the absolute bare fething minimum to mollify the loudest complaints. What a load of crap.

pretty sure mutilators were merged with oblits now that they have actual melee weapons


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Not Online!!! wrote:

I wonder when GW will finally take away Space marine bike HQ and Jumppack HQ, clearly some of them aren't in production anymore and they could provide an unfair advntage...
Oh wait, that's not how this works.

It's mindboggling and i hope GW will get gak on for this, but then again the community dind't give to gaks when three whole factions got Legended, watch the community at large being A O K with this aswell

these exist

no excuses for the bikes.

And you want to know why the community at large didnt throw a fit when R&H, corsairs and whatever the third one is got squatted? because the community at large doesn't play these factions (or know people that play these factions). It sucks but people will rarely go on "crusades" for things that don't directly affect them.

 Sasori wrote:
Yes... in a 31 player slightly larger than RTT event. This isn't like a mid sized GT event or anything.

Let's see that in a larger event before we start celebrating the success.

Yea, I don't think they'll be ubiquitous though the 6" HI gives a great way to guard an objective.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


pretty sure mutilators were merged with oblits now that they have actual melee weapons

GW may consider it that way, but mutilator models (including my converted ones) have never had ranged weapons, so that's a pretty gakky way to squat them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
carefull you could enter HH level customisation level which would confuse players and facilitate:

- kitbashing
- actual army lists with an actual strategy and tactic in the field

-and by extention allow 3rd parties again to slip in, wait Monopose already made it easier

oh, HH deals with their characters like that? I was basing myself off OPR's way to design characters

yeah,i really gotta take a look at HH

Centurion 3 variants (normal PA, Cataphractii and tartaros), basically is either:

Big medic,
Duelist,
Bannerbearer
Psyker
Assasin.
Special legion centurions, etc.


big Options of the normal centurion:
Jetbike
Jumppack
bike.

Not even all of the things.

Yeah, that's just six out of sixteen optional Centurion builds. There's also: Master Sniper, Master Scout, Chaplains, Multiple Tech Marine HQs, and one that specializes in Daemon summoning.

HH does soooo many things better than 40k. Terrain, cover, LoS, vehicles, Initiative instead of fights first/last confusion.

Infantry can even Embark in Buildings. Wasn't that something you were pushing for recently, Vlad?

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions...

... in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

And it still doesn't let Raptor Champs take Lightning Claws, Chosen take fists, or remove the infuriating and utterly unnecessary quagmire of weapon combinations that Terminators are allowed/not allowed to take.

yeah its not perfect but its something. For me its fine since everyone at my LGS is fine with legends. So at least my characters will make a comeback

Yeah, sure, but why couldn't they have just, y'know, put this stuff in the codex? If this stuff is perfectly fine here, why not there? Legends are completely ok for all types of play, right? So why wasn't this ok for the damned codex?

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


pretty sure mutilators were merged with oblits now that they have actual melee weapons

GW may consider it that way, but mutilator models (including my converted ones) have never had ranged weapons, so that's a pretty gakky way to squat them.

Genuinely asking: arent oblits and mutilator the same deal in the lore? Dudes with the techno something virus, that can manifest any weapon from their bodies? I'd say its weird if a dude can spawn a chainsword but not a heavy bolter (or vice-versa)




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 Gadzilla666 wrote:


HH does soooo many things better than 40k. Terrain, cover, LoS, vehicles, Initiative instead of fights first/last confusion.

Infantry can even Embark in Buildings. Wasn't that something you were pushing for recently, Vlad?

alright alright, lemme text some friends to organise a trial of HH this weekend :p

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Yeah, sure, but why couldn't they have just, y'know, put this stuff in the codex? If this stuff is perfectly fine here, why not there? Legends are completely ok for all types of play, right? So why wasn't this ok for the damned codex?

oh for sure it shouldve been in the codex, its dumb as feth to remove them

Legends are completely ok for all types of play, right?

Nope. Legends are binned things that people can say no to, and will simply be left to decay over time without outright admitting its abandonware.

ccs wrote:
It's funny how those people were all fine with you taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack yesterday (meaning the day before the new Codex arrived) but today, now that the same option is available via Legends, they're all opposed to it.

People are leery of unintended consequences. I don't think there are any with a JP Lord though since a DP can take everything they can, I believe.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
People are leery of unintended consequences. I don't think there are any with a JP Lord though since a DP can take everything they can, I believe.

Except a ranged weapon and a number of limitations on Relic weapons.

 Gert wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I mean if you have 1600 points of combi weapon chosen/terminators, jump lords, raptor champions with claws and cult units you don't want to buy other rules for, that sucks. But its far from ordinary.

The only other Codex that had this was GSC with Brood Brothers, which you needed the Guard Codex for if you wanted anything that wasn't the Russ, Troop unit, Chimera, or Sentinel. Even with that the limitations on Brood Brothers are that you can't use units without the <Regiment> keyword or units with a pre-ordained <Regiment>, which means no NCs, Commissars, Priests, Techpriests, Ogryns, or aircraft. This leaves literally every other option in the Codex from Infantry squads to Baneblades.
In comparison, CSM lost all but Noise Marines and only gets access to Plague Marines, Rubrics, and Berzerkers from those respective Codexes/Index. Hardly "ordinary" is it?
And as for the quip at the start, my Terminators aren't legal, most my 10-man units of CSM now have to be split into 5 which means less space for other Troop options, I need to buy 3 times as many Codexes just to use my main Elites choices, my Chosen have an illegal loadout, as does my Exalted Champion. So that leaves me with a Lord, a MoE, some Sorcerers, two 10-man units of CSM down from 4, 2 Helbrutes, and a Land Raider.

It wasn't a quip, it sucks if your 2k list was made out of 1600 points of stuff that isn't a valid loadout or easy access, but I seriously doubt that's the bulk of chaos players. At no point did I say any of this was "ordinary" before you take it too personally for whatever reason.

Genuine suggestions and attempt to help:
- If you took the time to make a full unit of powerfist combi-plas terminators then yes that definitely sucks but if they all have identical ranged weapons - but if they all have identical melee weapons and or ranged weapons bar the specials, then play them as all armed with accursed weapons and/or combi-bolters. They're not a total write off.
- You have 4 X 5 man marine units assuming you have 4 of the same special weapon, not ideal but you can work round that as noted. You mentioned that it reduced the number of available slots, how many units of cultists did you run? Even if it was 4 in a battalion then you wouldn't any more probably due to the cultists restrictions. I don't see the slots as an issue here.
- Buying the additional codex does suck, no way round that one, given I'm anti-piracy and I'm saying just source that however you need should say a lot. Failing that, zerkers = melee legionnaires with MoK, Rubrics = legionnaires with MoT & balefire tome etc.
- Chosen, again if it's all combi weapons of the same combi-weapon, run them as bolters if needs be, the melee weapons are pretty easily covered now unless it was all dual claws or something, but even then just say they have default loadout
- Exalted champion has a fixed loadout now so it literally doesn't matter what you gave him, or use him as a lord.

None of that is ideal but my point is it's hardly much imagination needed to use those models without having to rip 20 arms off or anything drastic.

To be anti-piracy when to use four of the entries you need other codices is hot garbage.

Piracy is a Service problem and NOT a custommer problem.
Gabe Newell.

Gw brought this to themselves, same with 3rd parties and chinacast being favoured in countries suffering from magic GW currency exchange rates.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Piracy is a Service problem and NOT a custommer problem.
Gabe Newell.

Gw brought this to themselves, same with 3rd parties and chinacast being favoured in countries suffering from magic GW currency exchange rates.

yeah, as a customer, i don't give 2 gaks about the money big corporations like GW make. If they can't provide me with good content, i'm not gonna pay for it

Dudeface wrote:
It wasn't a quip, it sucks if your 2k list was made out of 1600 points of stuff that isn't a valid loadout or easy access, but I seriously doubt that's the bulk of chaos players. At no point did I say any of this was "ordinary" before you take it too personally for whatever reason.

Who said anything about a 2k list? I'm talking about the army I spent the last year and a half building from rescues and abandoned projects being made redundant. The army was to be a revival of my many CSM and SM projects of the past into one cohesive force with the characters I made from some of these armies given new life.

As for the suggestions:
- There are multiple combinations of weapon options that are no longer valid and our group likes to play WYSIWYG to prevent confusion. I could run one unit of Terminators with the many options I made but not two or a unit of 10.
- With the Force Org slots point, sure. Yet now my vision for my army has been changed because of arbitrary reasons. Each unit is modeled in a specific way to tie them together with a narrative.
- Except all of my Cult units were made to stand out from the regular lads using the new bigger models (Plague Marines) or converting other models (Blood Warriors into Zerkers). So now the whole point of converting the units is wasted.
- The whole unit has Claws.
- A fixed loadout that doesn't match what my model has. Again, this isn't just about losing options its the fact that my narrative has been chucked out because GW can't write a good CSM Codex. I don't need another Chaos Lord, I needed my Champion to not be restricted based on a model that both doesn't get sold at general retail and doesn't technically even exist.

Voss wrote:

Legends are completely ok for all types of play, right?

Nope. Legends are binned things that people can say no to, and will simply be left to decay over time without outright admitting its abandonware.

Yeah, I know. But that's the "official" gw line about Legends, and it's .

Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:
It's funny how those people were all fine with you taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack yesterday (meaning the day before the new Codex arrived) but today, now that the same option is available via Legends, they're all opposed to it.

People are leery of unintended consequences. I don't think there are any with a JP Lord though since a DP can take everything they can, I believe.

Besides the aforementioned weapon/Relics there's deep strike. There, now you have to convince your opponent that it's totally ok. Your buddy that you play garagehammer with? Probably cool with it. Someone at a PUG? Iffy. Tournament? No way. See the problem?

Clearly you are WAAC player that deserves his converted models to be invalidated by GW....
/S.

 Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Boy, do I wish that my ork units would get invalidated in the same way as your cult troops are.

There are plenty of solutions which don't involve copyright infringements, but those don't lend themselves well to hyperbole.