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And again.

Please point us to any evidence at all that anyone in The Rings of Power was cast solely because of their ethnic background.

No….no….that’s your opinion. Put it down. Evidence. We want evidence of active discrimination against white persons reading for a role, and then losing out purely because the person that did get it wasn’t white.

Because that is what all the increasingly bizarre rants boil down, isn’t it? If you insist folk were cast purely because They’re Not White, and not that roles went to the best audition, then prove it.

Don’t worry. I’m not going to flip-flop to then “now prove it makes a blind bit of difference at all”. I just want proof to support your claim.

Anecdotes are not proof of that. A statement they’re keen on diverse casting is not proof of that. The actors and actresses saying “as a black person, I was thrilled to be cast” is not evidence of that. Evidence. They. Only. Got. The. Role. Because. They’re. Not. White. It’s that simple and straight forward.

Otherwise please…..just stop.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
cast solely because of their ethnic background

Has anyone ITT made this claim?

Yeah. Go back and look. ShadowWalker was getting his knickers in a twist about racism because whites people weren’t cast.

Did you even read the thread?

Now. Evidence of persons cast in The Rings of Power purely because they’re not white, if you please.

And if you can’t, please at least be big enough to admit all you have is a conspiracy theory.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
cast solely because of their ethnic background

Has anyone ITT made this claim?

Yes. In addition to what Mad Doc Grotsnik pointed out there's this:

 Grimskul wrote:
it's unsurprising that people are sick of it and frankly insulting to minorities like myself that we need (typically self-righteous white) people to give us handouts because we're seen as so inferior to white actors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Did you even read the thread?

Yes, I did. And I don’t see anyone claiming that actors were cast solely because of their race, nor have you demonstrated it. Rather, I’ve read people saying that race factored into casting, which seems incontrovertible. As someone demanding evidence to back a specific claim, you ought to be willing to meet the same burden. Your task is much easier, too, considering the entirety of the record is limited to these few pages before us.

trexmeyer wrote:
Tolkien wrote LotR to provide his country with a new mythology heavily inspired by Scandinavian and Germanic mythology. The casting is not true to the source material.

This is a good point to raise. Many critics argue that Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for the English. But, assuming they’re correct, does it therefore follow that anyone portraying a character in this mythology should look English, circa 5th century? Mythology doesn’t need to be “historically accurate,” after all — but it does need to reflect the identity of the people to whom it is relevant. Perhaps this mythology has surpassed Tolkien’s original intent (as theorized by certain critics) and become a mythology not merely for the English but for the English-speaking world.

BrianDavion wrote:
nope, nothing at all.

Aside from already diverging from the source material, that scene has nothing in common with the show's clumsy attempts at inserting phrenology into Middle Earth.

Tension between cultures in Tolkien's writing was always a result of real or perceived betrayal of trust or universal values. When an elf distrusts a dwarf, it is because of Nauglamir. When a dwarf distrusts an elf, it is because of Fall of Erebor. When an elf distrusts a man, it is because of those men who fell under the shadow of Morgoth. And when an man distrust an elf, it is because of the same shadow's lies.

None of it has anything to do with the shape of one's ears.

Yes, I did. And I don’t see anyone claiming that actors were cast solely because of their race

Then….in the same breath….

Rather, I’ve read people saying that race factored into casting, which seems incontrovertible.

So…….nobody is saying anyone was cast because of their race….except they were….but no one is claiming that, except when they do? Yeah?

Back to my request. Evidence someone, anyone, was cast simply because they’re Not White.

 Manchu wrote:
Yes, I did. And I don’t see anyone claiming that actors were cast solely because of their race, nor have you demonstrated it. Rather, I’ve read people saying that race factored into casting, which seems incontrovertible.

You may have missed it but I gave you a quote of someone doing exactly that.

Many critics argue that Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for the English.

Is this really a reasonable theory? I can't think of any plausible scenario where LOTR gets accepted as a genuine English mythology. A popular novel, sure, even one with widespread cultural influence. But mythology? Zero chance.

It comes from one of Tolkien's letters.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
nope, nothing at all.

Aside from already diverging from the source material, that scene has nothing in common with the show's clumsy attempts at inserting phrenology into Middle Earth.

Tension between cultures in Tolkien's writing was always a result of real or perceived betrayal of trust or universal values. When an elf distrusts a dwarf, it is because of Nauglamir. When a dwarf distrusts an elf, it is because of Fall of Erebor. When an elf distrusts a man, it is because of those men fell under the shadow of Morgoth. And when an man distrust an elf, it is because of the same shadow's lies.

None of it has anything to do with the shape of one's ears.

So a dwarf in the movie yelling "never trust an elf" with no reason given is assumed to be referring to the Fall of Erebor even though nothing about that is ever said, but in the show we can't make the same assumption?

(And let's not forget that the show even explicitly gives reasons for a lack of trust, in the humans fighting on the side of evil and the elves being smug donkey-caves watching over them as a result.)

 His Master's Voice wrote:
None of it has anything to do with the shape of one's ears.

The “knife ears” line made me cringe hard, considering it is stolen from Dragon Age — a much less revered, more generic, sillier setting than Middle-earth.

But in two episodes TRoP does a MUCH better job of explaining the racial tensions between Elves and Dwarves and Men than PJ’s LotR trilogy ever did. Not by having a Man call an Elf “knife ears” (again, that was lame) but rather by showing how the way each race experience time inherently creates deep misunderstandings. Durin says he lives a lifetime in what Elrond considers “only” twenty years. For the Elves watching over Tirharad, the War of the Jewels is within living memory. For the Men there, it is so deep in the past that they barely connect to their ancestors who served the Enemy.

It's also the reason why he used the original Norse legends/mythology as a huge background and building block for Middle Earth. Further its also why he did such extensive world building.

Prior to his writing most stories were just stories. They had a little internal world building, but they weren't really extensive. Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth was vast. Yes it was unfinished, yes much exists as notes and scribbles that shifted and changed and some existed purely as stories told to his children.
But in the end his work was extensive.



Honestly I'd say he probably failed at creating a mythology for the English. However he succeeded in creating a mythology and foundation for fantasy for the world. A foundation that contributed in a big way toward the explosion of fantasy as a concept so that today we've world settings that go even further. Lord of the Rings gave us Old World and Warhammer; Dungeons and Dragons; Starwars and more. It made us see fantasy as something we could explore and go deeper with. Be it from the original author or from our own creations based upon that (look at Cuthulu Mythos)


Sure many have now copied his ideas and concepts of world buliding and indeed many are hoping others do likewise with different mythological backgrounds around the world.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
None of it has anything to do with the shape of one's ears.

Do you not understand the difference between using ear shape as a racial slur and ear shape being the reason for hatred? It's a cringe-worthy line for anyone who remembers the DA games but it's hardly "clumsy attempts at inserting phrenology into Middle Earth".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So…….nobody is saying anyone was cast because of their race….except they were….but no one is claiming that, except when they do? Yeah?

Here’s what you’re claiming is being argued:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They. Only. Got. The. Role. Because. They’re. Not. White.

”Only.” You specified ONLY. I have not read anyone make that claim ITT. Instead, I have read people claim that race was considered in casting — which is obviously true because the show’s executive producer directly explained that the show was cast to achieve racial diversity (her words, to “reflect what the world actually looks like”).

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Do you not understand the difference between using ear shape as a racial slur and ear shape being the reason for hatred?

Do you not understand that for knife ears to become a racial slur in the first place, those ears would have to be viewed though the same lens that made people measure skulls with callipers?

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Do you not understand that for knife ears to become a racial slur in the first place, those ears would have to be viewed though the same lens that made people measure skulls with callipers?

Um, no, they just have to be a visible feature that elves have and men don't. There is no reason a racial slur has to be based on the assumption that the feature in question causes anything.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Is this really a reasonable theory? I can't think of any plausible scenario where LOTR gets accepted as a genuine English mythology. A popular novel, sure, even one with widespread cultural influence. But mythology? Zero chance.

Certainly, critics have made a bigger deal of it that Tolkien himself ever seemed to. But I also don’t think you should take the theory too literally. The idea is, the Norman Conquest blotted out Anglo-Saxon culture in significant ways and Tolkien creatively “recovered” the literary spirit of the lost material.

As I mentioned above, I think Tolkien’s impact in “mythological” terms has far exceeded his purported intentions and achieved a cultural impact not only on the English but the entire English-speaking world. It’s a mythology not only for English people but for all sorts of people across various ethnicities, races, even religions (or lack thereof). So I don’t think this “reconstructed English mythology” point can help too much in arguing that only whites should be cast for Middle-earth acting roles.

 Lance845 wrote:

Got a problem with tolken making his races look too human? Go dig up his corpse and tell him how you feel.

This perfectly sums up what you ''understood'' of what I wrote in this thread. Further discussion with you is therefore pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Ah, yes. Nothing like some affirmative action like hiring people based on race because the sins of the father are being passed onto the son. I never get this logic that somehow discriminating against white people makes up for discrimination against minorities in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and doing it so blatantly only ensures further marginalization for people to go towards extremism and actual "systemic racism" that you ironically are supposed to be against. Oh, you say "we ain't there yet" but who gets to decide that? When you set up fundamentally discriminatory practices framed within the context of "we know better than you", it's not something that's just going to go away when people profit from it and it's unsurprising that people are sick of it and frankly insulting to minorities like myself that we need (typically self-righteous white) people to give us handouts because we're seen as so inferior to white actors. It's the exact same thing they've been doing with diversity hires in university where even people in the sciences are being forced to follow EDI requirements to even get funding for grants.

This, so much this!

 His Master's Voice wrote:
those ears would have to be viewed though the same lens that made people measure skulls with callipers

That’s a really interesting and intelligent point — I think you’re right, that line about “knife ears” is relying on the way racism developed in the real world. That’s also the way it was used in Dragon Age. This really gets to the deeper reason that line is so bad; it seems completely alien to the setting of Middle-earth. In other regards, TRoP shows us how racism would develop differently in Middle-earth than it has in the real world but this line about “knife ears” is not at all organic to the setting and therefore feels wrong.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
There is no reason a racial slur has to be based on the assumption that the feature in question causes anything.

But it is always based on the premise that the physical difference make the other inferior. Which was very much a part of most phrenological "theories".

 Manchu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They. Only. Got. The. Role. Because. They’re. Not. White.

”Only.” You specified ONLY. I have not read anyone make that claim ITT. Instead, I have read people claim that race was considered in casting — which is obviously true because the show’s executive producer directly explained that the show was cast to achieve racial diversity (her words, to “reflect what the world actually looks like”).

Exactly. The original context of my post was, that anyone who says anything about forcing our world's racial diversity into fantasy races will be accused of being a racist.

 Manchu wrote:
Certainly, critics have made a bigger deal of it that Tolkien himself ever seemed to. But I also don’t think you should take the theory too literally. The idea is, the Norman Conquest blotted out Anglo-Saxon culture in significant ways and Tolkien creatively “recovered” the literary spirit of the lost material.

As I mentioned above, I think Tolkien’s impact in “mythological” terms has far exceeded his purported intentions and achieved a cultural impact not only on the English but the entire English-speaking world. It’s a mythology not only for English people but for all sorts of people across various ethnicities, races, even religions (or lack thereof). So I don’t think this “reconstructed English mythology” point can help too much in arguing that only whites should be cast for Middle-earth acting roles.

That's kind of what I was getting at. If you don't take the theory literally (and you shouldn't, because it isn't plausible) then there's no reason to believe that it means anything more than that Tolkien was inspired by the idea and mere inspiration doesn't mean an absolute rule that Middle Earth must be mythological England and nothing else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Exactly. The original context of my post was, that anyone who says anything about forcing our world's racial diversity into fantasy races will be accused of being a racist.

Well yes, because the root of that complaint is inevitably racism. There is no reason that Middle Earth shouldn't have racial diversity and let's be honest here, the vast majority of the time someone is complaining about it it's because they're a racist who hates seeing non-white characters in "their" fiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
But it is always based on the premise that the physical difference make the other inferior. Which was very much a part of most phrenological "theories".

Um, what? No, that is not true at all. Referring to a clearly visible distinguishing feature does not imply any kind of causal argument.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
mere inspiration doesn't mean an absolute rule that Middle Earth must be mythological England and nothing else

Agreed, especially because even if it was the case that Tolkien’s only or primary intent was to create an English mythology (which is, again, just a theory anyhow) the actual reception of his work goes well beyond that goal.

I think it’s worth pointing out that Tolkien was devoutly religious and considered his work to be fundamentally Catholic. Unlike the theory about English mythology, he made this point explicitly himself. But it’s abundantly clear that his work has been received by people of many different faiths or none. It’s nor more “just for Catholics” than it is “just for English”.

 Manchu wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Is this really a reasonable theory? I can't think of any plausible scenario where LOTR gets accepted as a genuine English mythology. A popular novel, sure, even one with widespread cultural influence. But mythology? Zero chance.

Certainly, critics have made a bigger deal of it that Tolkien himself ever seemed to. But I also don’t think you should take the theory too literally. The idea is, the Norman Conquest blotted out Anglo-Saxon culture in significant ways and Tolkien creatively “recovered” the literary spirit of the lost material.

As I mentioned above, I think Tolkien’s impact in “mythological” terms has far exceeded his purported intentions and achieved a cultural impact not only on the English but the entire English-speaking world. It’s a mythology not only for English people but for all sorts of people across various ethnicities, races, even religions (or lack thereof). So I don’t think this “reconstructed English mythology” point can help too much in arguing that only whites should be cast for Middle-earth acting roles.

Just to add to Manchu's point about the mythology here and some of what's been said.

As an archaeologist and someone who heavily studies Prehistory and the Early Medieval period. The term "Anglo-Saxon" although it has since been co-opted by neo-nazi groups online, does not mean White.

The fact that Tolkein's work has been used by these people to promote the idea of an all white fantasy, is brought up entirely of their mythology of the past which simply didn't exist.

Given that there is a notable shift in Tolkein's writing between the Hobbit and LoTR, I find he was far more aware of that post-war. Certainly in his attitudes to Dwarves.

Historically, there were plenty of non-white people living in Britain. So although people love to think of the past based on their own nationalist identity, it simply does not work like that. Tolkein at heart was a scholar and understood how history worked. That's how the Hobbit came into being after all, bringing Beowulf into life in a way that hadn't been truly done before. An ever-changing story based on the sources and knowledge that we have and our own interpretation based on better understanding.

And again, based on Tolkein's own descriptions of characters, there's zero reason not to have non-white people in the show.

I really don't care what petty reason you have for arguing the toss about that, because it will always be refutable.

Having non-white actors does not exclude white actors.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Referring to a clearly visible distinguishing feature does not imply any kind of causal argument.

Real-world racism is totally superficial, considering we’re all human, and generally real-world racial slurs therefore reference external physical differences. But racial tensions between Elves and Men in Middle-earth are not based on physical appearance, so it’s misaligned that the slur the writers came up with (well, stole from Dragon Age) references that. It would make more sense for Men to use a slur that references, from the perspective of Men, the Elves’ inability to forgive and forget the past — but that would be a lot harder to write, and maybe the point the writers really wanted to go for was making racism in Middle-earth relatable to the audience by framing it as real-world racism. In Middle-earth, it would probably be really racially loaded for an Elf to describe a Man as “forgetful” but that is hard to get across to the audience.

 Manchu wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Referring to a clearly visible distinguishing feature does not imply any kind of causal argument.

Real-world racism is totally superficial, considering we’re all human, and generally real-world racial slurs therefore reference external physical differences. But racial tensions between Elves and Men in Middle-earth are not based on physical appearance, so it’s misaligned that the slur the writers came up with (well, stole from Dragon Age) references that. It would make more sense for Men to use a slur that references, from the perspective of Men, the Elves’ inability to forgive and forget the past — but that would be a lot harder to write, and maybe the point the writers really wanted to go for was making racism in Middle-earth relatable to the audience by framing it as real-world racism. In Middle-earth, it would probably be really racially loaded for an Elf to describe a Man as “forgetful” but that is hard to get across to the audience.

I agree that the knife ears thing was awful and jarring. But I can presume the decision was made to make it unsubtle as possible, to make sure everyone watching was aware.

Yes, I totally forgive the terrible “knife ears” line given the larger context is explained that the real tension is the Elves don’t distinguish these Men living today from their ancestors who served Morgoth thousands of years previously — which is pretty fething racist!

 Manchu wrote:
In Middle-earth, it would probably be really racially loaded for an Elf to describe a Man as “forgetful” but that is hard to get across to the audience.

Which raises a point: the characters aren't speaking modern English. They're speaking the languages of Middle Earth, translated for a real-world audience. So you could argue that they are referencing something like the elves judging them for the sins of their ancestors but the unfamiliar word is translated to something the audience is more likely to understand. They aren't literally saying "knife ears" in their language, but that's the best English translation for the concept of an anti-elf slur.

Or maybe they're just not operating on that higher level. A well-educated elf with thousands of years of wisdom might go for something like "forgetful" with every bit of connotation that it doesn't have in English, but the character making the comment is obviously living in poverty and ignorance (likely enforced by the elves). Going for the superficial appearance attack is the easy one, the one that even an uneducated peasant farmer with no knowledge of history beyond "grandpa did some bad stuff" can understand.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Exactly. The original context of my post was, that anyone who says anything about forcing our world's racial diversity into fantasy races will be accused of being a racist.

Well yes, because the root of that complaint is inevitably racism. There is no reason that Middle Earth shouldn't have racial diversity and let's be honest here, the vast majority of the time someone is complaining about it it's because they're a racist who hates seeing non-white characters in "their" fiction.

It was not about the Middle Earth only but generally about fantasy races in movies/shows. My whole point was, how ridiculous is to force our world's racial diversity to fantasy races just because white people guilt for wrongdoings of their past. I am sick of being accused of some hidden motives (like racism or whatever) just because I am being white, and therefore I am artificially limited of what I can say. Give me the valid in world/universe reasons why suddenly a particular fantasy race shows diversity that mimics ours, and I would have no problem with it. Just as I have no problems with House Valaryon in HotD being black, because it can be fully and plausibly explained with in world logic (like them being a sailor, non dragon raider, house that would/could mix with other people due to their voyages etc.). But I have a problem when this show creators say that the reason was that they do not want a show with a bunch of white people. The racism works in both ways. You cannot solve past injustice while creating the new one.

@Aecus Decimus

I think your translation point is interesting but it lets the writers off the hook too easily. I know they’re capable of better than “knife ears”!

As to “knife ears” coming from a simpleton’s perspective, the problem there is that the simpleton wouldn’t think to call out the ears because the ears aren’t the problem. It’d be like a Man calling an Elf “fancy cloak”; while the Elves do indeed have better-made clothes than these villagers, that’s not what the villagers resent about them.