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 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
On topic, as I've said before 'lazy' can be appropriate, but I fully understand why people would get worked up if it isn't- plenty legit reasons why someone can't or won't paint after all.

This.

And let me be clear: my comments about social transgressions is about people who choose not to paint. Someone who is unable to paint because of a disability or lack of painting space is not guilty of the same transgression, nor is someone who is new to the game and playing with some unpainted models while making a good-faith effort to finish painting them. I'm certainly not expecting a standard that you're a TFG if you don't have a fully painted 2000 point army regardless of the circumstances.


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 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
For example, the first few times you fight someone, they're trying to see if they enjoy it, and most of their army is grey. It becomes an issue if they keep bringing grey minis, making no progress, for every game?

Exactly. I don't think anyone here is suggesting there's a problem with someone wanting to play the game immediately instead of waiting months/years to be allowed to play and temporarily using unpainted models while making a good-faith effort to progress towards a fully painted army. The issue is with the people, IMO a much greater number, who have the same unpainted army for years and never even make an attempt to fix the problem.

What problem needs to be fixed? Not painting your minis is not a “problem”, it’s a preference.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What problem needs to be fixed? Not painting your minis is not a “problem”, it’s a preference.

It is a problem because your "preference" makes the game less enjoyable for most people. Even most of the people who said they're willing to play against unpainted models admit that a game with fully painted armies is better. Having an unpainted army is a problem most of us will overlook as long as you're making a good-faith effort to fix it and get a fully painted army but that patience isn't unlimited. Eventually you will no longer be able to play in our groups and you won't be able to attend tournaments.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What problem needs to be fixed? Not painting your minis is not a “problem”, it’s a preference.

It is a problem because your "preference" makes the game less enjoyable for most people. Even most of the people who said they're willing to play against unpainted models admit that a game with fully painted armies is better. Having an unpainted army is a problem most of us will overlook as long as you're making a good-faith effort to fix it and get a fully painted army but that patience isn't unlimited. Eventually you will no longer be able to play in our groups and you won't be able to attend tournaments.

If you’re unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing, it says a lot more about you than the person who dislikes painting.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What problem needs to be fixed? Not painting your minis is not a “problem”, it’s a preference.

It is a problem because your "preference" makes the game less enjoyable for most people. Even most of the people who said they're willing to play against unpainted models admit that a game with fully painted armies is better. Having an unpainted army is a problem most of us will overlook as long as you're making a good-faith effort to fix it and get a fully painted army but that patience isn't unlimited. Eventually you will no longer be able to play in our groups and you won't be able to attend tournaments.

If you’re unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing, it says a lot more about you than the person who dislikes painting.

My mind is constantly boggled by the idea that people read "we'll be okay with playing unpainted models usually but prefer painted models" as "I am literally unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing."

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
If you’re unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing, it says a lot more about you than the person who dislikes painting.

That's a nice double standard you have there. You complain about being judged for your "preference" to never paint your models, but you have no problem insisting there's something wrong with anyone who doesn't enjoy playing against unpainted models.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
If you’re unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing, it says a lot more about you than the person who dislikes painting.

That's a nice double standard you have there. You complain about being judged for your "preference" to never paint your models, but you have no problem insisting there's something wrong with anyone who doesn't enjoy playing against unpainted models.

Who said I was judging you?

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
If you’re unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing, it says a lot more about you than the person who dislikes painting.

That's a nice double standard you have there. You complain about being judged for your "preference" to never paint your models, but you have no problem insisting there's something wrong with anyone who doesn't enjoy playing against unpainted models.

Why did you put preference in scare quotes?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
What problem needs to be fixed? Not painting your minis is not a “problem”, it’s a preference.

It is a problem because your "preference" makes the game less enjoyable for most people. Even most of the people who said they're willing to play against unpainted models admit that a game with fully painted armies is better. Having an unpainted army is a problem most of us will overlook as long as you're making a good-faith effort to fix it and get a fully painted army but that patience isn't unlimited. Eventually you will no longer be able to play in our groups and you won't be able to attend tournaments.

If you’re unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing, it says a lot more about you than the person who dislikes painting.

My mind is constantly boggled by the idea that people read "we'll be okay with playing unpainted models usually but prefer painted models" as "I am literally unable to find enjoyment because some paint is missing."

But people aren't reading that. They're reading the other statements about social transgressions, how they're lazy, stupid and worthless, and how they should be driven out and shamed.
Almost no one is taking issue with 'I prefer (un)/painted, but others can do what they like.' But that's unfortunately a rare statement in this thread, and usually half-buried in passive-aggression even when it is expressed.

Voss wrote:
But people aren't reading that. They're reading the other statements about social transgressions, how they're lazy, stupid and worthless, and how they should be driven out and shamed.

That's rather hyperbolic and you know it.

Lol. In your list of things that have been said, the only two that *actually* are said is social transgressions and lazy.

The first is still an arguable point, and the poster of the second took it back and regretted saying it.

And a social transgresion can be seen as something positive depending of the context... Like women wearing trousers when that was "against the norm" . Perhaps those in the camp of "proud to go unpainted" are showing us an alternative path to the wargaming experience, one in which we dont need to suffer the "dictatorship of colour".

Vatsetis wrote:
And a social transgresion can be seen as something positive depending of the context... Like women wearing trousers when that was "against the norm" . Perhaps those in the camp of "proud to go unpainted" are showing us an alternative path to the wargaming experience, one in which we dont need to suffer the "dictatorship of colour".

Lets not start equating painting with bigotry now, c'mon.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
And a social transgresion can be seen as something positive depending of the context... Like women wearing trousers when that was "against the norm" . Perhaps those in the camp of "proud to go unpainted" are showing us an alternative path to the wargaming experience, one in which we dont need to suffer the "dictatorship of colour".

Lets not start equating painting with bigotry now, c'mon.

They already went down that route. Just ctrl+f for "extremists" ITT.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
And a social transgresion can be seen as something positive depending of the context... Like women wearing trousers when that was "against the norm" . Perhaps those in the camp of "proud to go unpainted" are showing us an alternative path to the wargaming experience, one in which we dont need to suffer the "dictatorship of colour".

Lets not start equating painting with bigotry now, c'mon.

Perhaps there was some element of sacarcsm in my previous post... Or not

Would you all be okay with 1 badly thick coat of primer, a badly painted weapon, and a brown painted base? I mean, what are we expecting for "painted"? Can I bring my first ever painted minis or do they have to be all painted with 5+ years experience and 3 different layers plus highlighting and sand/rock bases?

Less than 100 hours work in each of your individual minis is an insult to your fellow gamers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Asmodios wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I have to say, given the poll results have a minority majority saying they don't give a flying fudge what level of paint their opponent has, that anyone making an argument about not-painting being a violation of social norms (and thus something worthy of being judgmental about, rather than just Letting Things Be) should really support their argument with... something.

Considering most major tournaments have added a three-color minimum standard and tournaments have seen an uptick in participation after this, id say basing this daka thread with a couple of hundred people as your data is weak

Neat! Can you show me that data? How did they isolate the three-color minimum standard as the driving force for the uptick - were there other changes at the same time?

Data is neat.

Considering these forums are mostly made up of non-competitive internet warriors who theory craft all day and call it playing, I don't think any poll on here is an accurate representation of the hobby wider.

So, are you also include ib the category of internet warrior/non player category?

Or you are the statiatical anomaly?

:(

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering these forums are mostly made up of non-competitive internet warriors who theory craft all day and call it playing, I don't think any poll on here is an accurate representation of the hobby wider.

Fantastic response. Anyone on these old school forums is far more invested into the hobby and playing than your average local player or youth getting into the hobby. The majority of folks I know on dakka are also casual painters and narrative gamers. I feel like everyone here owns multiple armies and are 10+ year veterans to the hobby

This forum is dwarfed by the Warhammer tiktokers and instagram folks.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would you all be okay with 1 badly thick coat of primer, a badly painted weapon, and a brown painted base? I mean, what are we expecting for "painted"? Can I bring my first ever painted minis or do they have to be all painted with 5+ years experience and 3 different layers plus highlighting and sand/rock bases?

Fortunately GW gives us a convenient answer here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/21/introducing-battle-readygw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-1/

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:


It is a problem because your "preference" makes the game less enjoyable for most people.

according to the poll this statement is false


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 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would you all be okay with 1 badly thick coat of primer, a badly painted weapon, and a brown painted base? I mean, what are we expecting for "painted"? Can I bring my first ever painted minis or do they have to be all painted with 5+ years experience and 3 different layers plus highlighting and sand/rock bases?

Fortunately GW gives us a convenient answer here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/21/introducing-battle-readygw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-1/

so its not battle ready unless i use shades or contrast?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
according to the poll this statement is false

First of all, the poll is not representative of the community as a whole because this forum is not representative of the community as a whole. Forum discussion in general skews heavily towards a particular sort of player that is very focused on the game rules over the story, usually with most of that attention going towards trying to win in the list building phase. And it's not just with painting. Look at the topics of discussion and you see a ton of list building activity, a handful of arguments over game design or GW policies, and virtually no attention given to narrative play.

Second, even for this forum it isn't false. I've already said this but I'll say it again for you: even the people saying they "don't care" about painting mostly acknowledge that painting improves the game, they just won't refuse to play with someone over it. Meanwhile I don't think I've seen anyone say they hate having painted models on the table and would prefer that their opponents leave everything gray plastic.

so its not battle ready unless i use shades or contrast?

Correct. If you use third-party paints instead of the specific named GW products you do not meet the standard. I don't care how many golden demons your model wins, if it doesn't use those products it is not allowed on my table.

(Or you could use some common sense here please.)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:


It is a problem because your "preference" makes the game less enjoyable for most people.

according to the poll this statement is false

I think you are entering the era kin to how politics and religion works. And people with unpainted armies, who don't want to paint their armies are not considered people. Because you are only a person if you paint, read books, create scenic bases and lore for your armies, to a point where actualy playing the game is just a blip in The Hobby. I could even imagine people claiming that The Hobby is, to a larger degree, everything but playing the game. And that while not painting makes you a non person, not playing has no such effect.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would you all be okay with 1 badly thick coat of primer, a badly painted weapon, and a brown painted base? I mean, what are we expecting for "painted"? Can I bring my first ever painted minis or do they have to be all painted with 5+ years experience and 3 different layers plus highlighting and sand/rock bases?

I'll always play against someone who is new to the hobby and getting the hang of painting.

I would much rather play against them than someone who has had a grey army for years and refuses to paint because they complain that it's too hard, while Youtube tutorials and products like Contrast have made it easier than ever. Or worse, slops primer on their models to meet some bare-minimum definition of 'painted' without putting in any effort.

Trying is always better than making excuses.

0, I do not care. I love looking at beautifully painted models and playing against a fully painted army since it adds more to the game, but by the same token I am a fully understand peoples time crunch. I work 45 hours a Week, I commute 12.5 hours a week, I have kids, dogs, goats, a home to take care of and tasks to perform. I just played a game this weekend where I apologized to my opponent for using a Smasha Squig that wasn't fully painted yet. I had meant to get to him last week but work took over the few hours I had to hobby.

If i had to choose between playing against a fully painted army and a non-fully painted army and everything else was the same? Id go for fully painted, but i'd never turn down a game against a grey army

 catbarf wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would you all be okay with 1 badly thick coat of primer, a badly painted weapon, and a brown painted base? I mean, what are we expecting for "painted"? Can I bring my first ever painted minis or do they have to be all painted with 5+ years experience and 3 different layers plus highlighting and sand/rock bases?

I'll always play against someone who is new to the hobby and getting the hang of painting.

I would much rather play against them than someone who has had a grey army for years and refuses to paint because they complain that it's too hard, while Youtube tutorials and products like Contrast have made it easier than ever. Or worse, slops primer on their models to meet some bare-minimum definition of 'painted' without putting in any effort.

Trying is always better than making excuses.

I'd rather see bare plastic than badly painted. Ugly models (stressing miniatures, not people) are worse than 'trying your best' (however honest that statement ever is) and failing.

Literally don't care. Because nobody I know (invluding me) knows how to paint really well anyway, and battle ready paintjobs aint doing it for me.

 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Would you all be okay with 1 badly thick coat of primer, a badly painted weapon, and a brown painted base? I mean, what are we expecting for "painted"? Can I bring my first ever painted minis or do they have to be all painted with 5+ years experience and 3 different layers plus highlighting and sand/rock bases?

Fortunately GW gives us a convenient answer here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/05/21/introducing-battle-readygw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-1/

That is not an answer. I asked you for YOUR belief. If you are inherently claiming lockstep with everything on the website, I think you'd find playing the game severely difficult.


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I might also add, less than 10% of the Community are "expert" or even "Capable" level painters. And there is a very real feeling of shyness and embaressment of putting your "poorly" painted models up against someone who's perfectly painted models make yours look even worse.

And before "Git GUD" comes out, this crippling fear of looking stupid is what keeps me from even buying brushes and starting to paint my more expensive models. So I try to learn on DnD models. But it's a very real fear among the majority of lesser skilled hobbyists.

If you dont try you will never learn how to paint your miniatures.

Even if the first buch look terrible you can re sell them or re paint them latter.

Surely there are people in your gamming community who will very kindly help you to increase your crafting skill.

Painting shouldnt be that different from learning to dance, akward at the beggining but fun once to launch yourselve into the frey!!