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 Easy E wrote:
If that is not what you are expecting, you will not like it.

Well I think you would like the fat dragon?

 Easy E wrote:
I saw it. I did not read the thread before posting.


This is a Marvel-style, Fantasy, Heist movie. If you are into that, you will like it. If that is not what you are expecting, you will not like it.

Pretty simple.

I suspected that, so I stand firm on having a few beers handy when that time may come.

It was perfectly enjoyable and a fun watch. The vistas were nice and the characters are likable. The 80s cartoon cameo was unexpected but well done.

It would have been nice if the barbarian actually got to use the blade of her axe but they are trying to reach a broad audience so it is understandable that it couldn't get to graphically violent. They were still able to do some decent action set pieces within those limitations.

Considering we got Mordenkainen and Elminster name drops I was expecting hear Vecna to pop up somewhere. Maybe Stranger Things ruined that.

Saw it today. Was fun. Some of the action scenes were oddly weightless and... dull?

Namely there is a wild shape chase/escape in which I never felt thrilled even a little bit. It was oddly slow. Not like the slowest speeders in existence from Book of Bobba slow. But not too far away from it either.

But over all I think there was good jokes, good heartfelt moments. A nice heist romp.

If you’re talking about the scene I’m thinking of, the gimmick was that it was made to look like one continuous shot, a sort of film nerd flex. And considering one reviewer called that the stand out action scene in the movie, I’d say Mission Accomplished. But yeah, there’s a reason filmmakers generally avoid long, continuous shots in crowd pleaser movies.

The action was not the focus of the movie, it was more a vehicle to show off the niche or role of each character in the "heist".

Do you think this guy knows what he's talking about?

 Ghaz wrote:
Do you think this guy knows what he's talking about?

Old Grognard being an old Grognard. It's good that he wraps it up by saying none of it actually matters.

 Lance845 wrote:
It's good that he wraps it up by saying none of it actually matters.

That's why they call it the Forgotten Realms.

 Adeptekon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's good that he wraps it up by saying none of it actually matters.

That's why they call it the Forgotten Realms.

Better than the alternate title, the Misbegotten Realms.

Which, having heard him in person telling stories about games he ran before he sold the bare bones version of the setting to TSR, is rather accurate. The standout story I remember is having his players infiltrate Zhentil Keep, which naturally leads immediately to the nearest brothel, where the party starts spilling their secrets to the prostitutes (who are, of course, actually spies) until the beholders come floating in through the windows. Cue zany hijinks.
That he kept slipping in and out of the Elminster persona (yes, he wandered and did panels around game conventions in character. Sometimes, when he remembered), added a whole other level of surreal.

But its worth remembering in this context that large sections of the Forgotten Realms were blank, and developed by people who were NOT Ed Greenwood to create a finished product, and quite a few decades have past both in setting and out, which changed a whole mess of things. Including dead gods, new gods, new geography temporarily overlaying the landscape (then going away again) and political structures being completely destroyed and rebuilt. Oh and multiple game editions happened. His take on 'what's wrong' just isn't that relevant.

I realize it's unpopular to admit this, but I liked D&D before it had it's own mythology.

 Adeptekon wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It's good that he wraps it up by saying none of it actually matters.

That's why they call it the Forgotten Realms.

It's called 'Forgotten Realms' because it's been described in such excruciating detail no one can possibly remember everything...

Well that's the nature of any long term setting being evolved and added too over time. People will ask questions and answers will be found and new questions arise.
You get the same thing in super long running book series as the author develops and advances and explores their world in greater depth.

 Adeptekon wrote:
I realize it's unpopular to admit this, but I liked D&D before it had it's own mythology.

Well Greyhawk was 1980 and Forgotten Realms was 1987 so sometime in the mid to late 70s? Plus I will not stand by while someone besmirches the integrity and awesomeness of Dark Sun. Now if you want to hate on Al-Qadim that would be reasonable.


I saw it with four people, non of which play D&D in any capacity, and they all enjoyed it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you’re talking about the scene I’m thinking of, the gimmick was that it was made to look like one continuous shot, a sort of film nerd flex. And considering one reviewer called that the stand out action scene in the movie, I’d say Mission Accomplished. But yeah, there’s a reason filmmakers generally avoid long, continuous shots in crowd pleaser movies.

Bar the working as a team to fight wizzaard, I did wish most of the fight scenes were a lot shorter. Or gone. Fight in forge or overpowered paladin fights? Cut them right down...

I disagree somewhat. I thought the fight with the wizard at the end felt a little too breezy and superhero-ish compared to Holga’s more grounded fist fights. I enjoyed the way her fights were choreographed and edited because they were easy to follow while feeling suitably brutal, almost a throwback in style.

I thought the Paladin only got one real fight scene? As he was there to be better than everyone else and annoyingly humble about it, I wouldn’t have minded if they shortened his fight to a one-hit-one-kill, no sweat scene.

its nice that there's another fantasy movie that isn't explicitely for kids but also isn't garbage so i dont have just the lord of the rings and maybe the hobbit movies when I want some phauntashee

I compared both D&D movies to Conan the Barbarian. Needless to say I didn´t like them at all.

 Strg Alt wrote:
I compared both D&D movies to Conan the Barbarian. Needless to say I didn´t like them at all.

Wouldn’t the natural comparison be Krull or Willow? Conan the Barbarian was a different subgenre with Beastmaster and Deathstalker. Seems like the closest modern equivalent would be Game of Thrones, fantasy for adults with a hard edge that gets progressively worse until you hit the Red Sonja stage and give up.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
I realize it's unpopular to admit this, but I liked D&D before it had it's own mythology.

Well Greyhawk was 1980 and Forgotten Realms was 1987 so sometime in the mid to late 70s? Plus I will not stand by while someone besmirches the integrity and awesomeness of Dark Sun. Now if you want to hate on Al-Qadim that would be reasonable.

I can't comment on Darksun, the cover art looked cool, but I never played it.

And sure GreyHawk, let's just say to a much lessor degree these early campaign worlds were more like islands than verses (or how a lot of people like myself looked at them, --not speaking for the big time Gen Con goers and the like.

Besides my friend's older bros and crew playing in these worlds no one I knew really paid too much attention. Modules were just that, injectables into whatever realm you desired whether written for something larger or not. Many of us were either running our own campaigns with our own lore or just writing up random scenarios for the next get-to-gather (a fun, not-so-serious, rinse and repeat).

Moms bought me basic set when I was 8 (shhh don't tell I was under the recommended age of 11 or whatever, right before the Satanic Panic began making waves with the 1980's media), so I started there, then played one module of Expert, and skipped to 1st AD&D, and so on from there.

The ongoing development was to be expected, people need to make money, but at the time I hated it. I didn't need a ton of rules and pre-made to play.

AD&D got me into mythology, and from there history (I already had my foot in the door with Tolkien). When people started escaping into Forgotten realms I scoffed at it as a kind of Tolkienish wannbe. (did the same with Warhammer, and now I'm here)

I couldn't understand why people wanted more of someone's profit orientated make-believe versus the rich common wealth heritage of actual cultural history and lore ... which if I might add, pre-www was still quite mysterious to many of us outside of the Ivory towers of the universities. Having only TV documentaries to enlighten (Good God) beyond the physical library ... damn I feel ancient.

Deities & Demigods covered all the real world cultural mythologies we needed, and when they didn't we made them up ourselves or elaborated on those further by diving into those real world mythos and folklore on deeper levels. No one lore to ruin everyone's indy campaign settings.


Freedom.


/diatribe

 Overread wrote:
Well that's the nature of any long term setting being evolved and added too over time. People will ask questions and answers will be found and new questions arise.
You get the same thing in super long running book series as the author develops and advances and explores their world in greater depth.

While Greyhawk has seen some of that, it's nowhere NEAR as detailed as FR. And Greyhawk was published well before FR.

There was - and still is - a substantial difference in how Greyhawk is published, and how FR is published. The Greyhawk boxed set gives lots of basic overviews. Even before the plethora of splatbooks came out for FR that Greyhawk never saw, just looking at the FR boxed set, things were detailed down to city maps and locations.

My biggest issue with both Grey Hawk and Forgotten Realms is the detail. Not necessarily that a city or nation is detailed, but that it;s all so densely populated that there are no "edge of the map" where the monsters can exist.

Where can a bullet exist that Never Winters military wouldn't just hunt it down? Where can a population of giants take up residence? How are there any dragons within threat range of any or all these major population centers? There is nowhere to explore left and nowhere for the monsters to hide.

Dark Sun is almost exclusively edges of the map. Vast tracts of dangerous wildness populated by horrors.

But Greyhawk? The 3rd ed Gazateer put an end to any idea of any real danger existing in the vast majority of the map. And Greyhawk isn't half as detailed as Forgetten Realms is.

 Strg Alt wrote:
I compared both D&D movies to Conan the Barbarian. Needless to say I didn´t like them at all.

With Arnie or the other chap?

Compared to Ator the Invincible they are pretty good.

I still have nostalgia for 1st Ed, but since I've been looking back on this, I learned about Dungeon Crawl Classics: https://goodman-games.com/dungeon-crawl-classics-rpg/, and would like to see if they are truly the spiritual successor to early D&D.

 Lance845 wrote:
My biggest issue with both Grey Hawk and Forgotten Realms is the detail. Not necessarily that a city or nation is detailed, but that it;s all so densely populated that there are no "edge of the map" where the monsters can exist.

Where can a bullet exist that Never Winters military wouldn't just hunt it down? Where can a population of giants take up residence? How are there any dragons within threat range of any or all these major population centers? There is nowhere to explore left and nowhere for the monsters to hide.

Dark Sun is almost exclusively edges of the map. Vast tracts of dangerous wildness populated by horrors.

But Greyhawk? The 3rd ed Gazateer put an end to any idea of any real danger existing in the vast majority of the map. And Greyhawk isn't half as detailed as Forgetten Realms is.

FR has a _lot_ of empty spaces where civilization doesn't exist. There's a strip along the Sword Coast, and pockets inland, the major civilizations of the Shining South (aka the Not-Middle-East in the style of Aladdin), then there's a HUGE empty expanse (including that stupid magical desert) that requires caravans to reach the middle of the map, where you have Cormyr/Sembia and the Moonsea with the frontier area of the Dalelands in between (which have small militias of dozens of people, not military). Other areas of the map are similarly clumped and separated.

Neverwinter isn't a military power (Waterdeep, further north, is). In fact the towns of that area are in a loose alliance because they are militarily not worth squat, and Neverwinter in particular gets the crap kicked out of them every time a crisis comes along.

If anything the problem is the opposite. Most areas of civilization are so small and weak compared to what's out there that they should be wiped off the map. Though that's partly why the FR is so obsessed with super-wizards, they're the setting's nuclear deterrent.


Its also worth noting that the main continent is huge. As in multiple North Americas fit in its landmass.

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
My biggest issue with both Grey Hawk and Forgotten Realms is the detail. Not necessarily that a city or nation is detailed, but that it;s all so densely populated that there are no "edge of the map" where the monsters can exist.

Where can a bullet exist that Never Winters military wouldn't just hunt it down? Where can a population of giants take up residence? How are there any dragons within threat range of any or all these major population centers? There is nowhere to explore left and nowhere for the monsters to hide.

Dark Sun is almost exclusively edges of the map. Vast tracts of dangerous wildness populated by horrors.

But Greyhawk? The 3rd ed Gazateer put an end to any idea of any real danger existing in the vast majority of the map. And Greyhawk isn't half as detailed as Forgetten Realms is.

FR has a _lot_ of empty spaces where civilization doesn't exist. There's a strip along the Sword Coast, and pockets inland, the major civilizations of the Shining South (aka the Not-Middle-East in the style of Aladdin), then there's a HUGE empty expanse (including that stupid magical desert) that requires caravans to reach the middle of the map, where you have Cormyr/Sembia and the Moonsea with the frontier area of the Dalelands in between (which have small militias of dozens of people, not military). Other areas of the map are similarly clumped and separated.

Neverwinter isn't a military power (Waterdeep, further north, is). In fact the towns of that area are in a loose alliance because they are militarily not worth squat, and Neverwinter in particular gets the crap kicked out of them every time a crisis comes along.

If anything the problem is the opposite. Most areas of civilization are so small and weak compared to what's out there that they should be wiped off the map. Though that's partly why the FR is so obsessed with super-wizards, they're the setting's nuclear deterrent.


Its also worth noting that the main continent is huge. As in multiple North Americas fit in its landmass.

I am getting some Deja Vu so we may have gone over this before. Never Winter is a city with a population of 20,000. Forget the half your population is roughly fighting fit. Lets say it's 10%. 2,000 soldiers versus a Bulette is laughable. The bulette is dead. Kobolds are causing trouble in a way that 5 adventures can deal with it but they couldn't send out a detachment of 50 soldiers to wipe the nest from the face of the earth? You gotta be kidding me.

In order for these places to be as you describe the largest cities should be floating around 1000 population. Most town should be in the hundreds AT BEST. A huge army should consist of several hundred soldiers, not thousands of them, the way actual medieval armies were composed.

Never Winter can, and should, take their MASSIVE population and forge weapon and then deploy it's military to clean up it's surrounding lands. There is zero reason for a group of adventurers to have anything to do anywhere near Never Winter. It's threats should be rival nations more or less exclusively. A Orcish warband? Laughable by sheer numbers. An Orcish ARMY? Okay... so what are the 5 players going to do about it?

 Lance845 wrote:
An Orcish ARMY? Okay... so what are the 5 players going to do about it?

Traditional SF tasks like hitting supply dumps and guiding in magic missiles...

 Lance845 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
My biggest issue with both Grey Hawk and Forgotten Realms is the detail. Not necessarily that a city or nation is detailed, but that it;s all so densely populated that there are no "edge of the map" where the monsters can exist.

Where can a bullet exist that Never Winters military wouldn't just hunt it down? Where can a population of giants take up residence? How are there any dragons within threat range of any or all these major population centers? There is nowhere to explore left and nowhere for the monsters to hide.

Dark Sun is almost exclusively edges of the map. Vast tracts of dangerous wildness populated by horrors.

But Greyhawk? The 3rd ed Gazateer put an end to any idea of any real danger existing in the vast majority of the map. And Greyhawk isn't half as detailed as Forgetten Realms is.

FR has a _lot_ of empty spaces where civilization doesn't exist. There's a strip along the Sword Coast, and pockets inland, the major civilizations of the Shining South (aka the Not-Middle-East in the style of Aladdin), then there's a HUGE empty expanse (including that stupid magical desert) that requires caravans to reach the middle of the map, where you have Cormyr/Sembia and the Moonsea with the frontier area of the Dalelands in between (which have small militias of dozens of people, not military). Other areas of the map are similarly clumped and separated.

Neverwinter isn't a military power (Waterdeep, further north, is). In fact the towns of that area are in a loose alliance because they are militarily not worth squat, and Neverwinter in particular gets the crap kicked out of them every time a crisis comes along.

If anything the problem is the opposite. Most areas of civilization are so small and weak compared to what's out there that they should be wiped off the map. Though that's partly why the FR is so obsessed with super-wizards, they're the setting's nuclear deterrent.


Its also worth noting that the main continent is huge. As in multiple North Americas fit in its landmass.

I am getting some Deja Vu so we may have gone over this before. Never Winter is a city with a population of 20,000. Forget the half your population is roughly fighting fit. Lets say it's 10%. 2,000 soldiers versus a Bulette is laughable. The bulette is dead. Kobolds are causing trouble in a way that 5 adventures can deal with it but they couldn't send out a detachment of 50 soldiers to wipe the nest from the face of the earth? You gotta be kidding me.

Yes...? A day or two's march of a major city is pretty safe for exactly this reason. Further out you start losing patrols to unexpected things, and that sort of attrition isn't sustainable.
Also, Bulette's aren't city threats. They're open road traveler threats. Killed some horses and a merchant or two and took off, disrupting traders.

In order for these places to be as you describe the largest cities should be floating around 1000 population. Most town should be in the hundreds AT BEST. A huge army should consist of several hundred soldiers, not thousands of them, the way actual medieval armies were composed.

And the frontier towns (Dalelands and the Lords Alliance towns in the region around Waterdeep) are this size. They've released a lot of demographics over the years.

Never Winter can, and should, take their MASSIVE population and forge weapon and then deploy it's military to clean up it's surrounding lands. There is zero reason for a group of adventurers to have anything to do anywhere near Never Winter. It's threats should be rival nations more or less exclusively. A Orcish warband? Laughable by sheer numbers. An Orcish ARMY? Okay... so what are the 5 players going to do about it?

I feel like you're stepping into the quagmire of genre conventions here (and 5e mechanics are problematic because the system math is that soldiers > adventurers. That wasn't the case for older editions where immunity or high resistance to non-magical weapons made armies useless in a lot of monster fights), but for the rest of it... these towns and cities aren't nations. There are relatively few of those in the Forgotten Realms, and very few in the parts of the world that are the main focus. City states and frontier towns are the order of the day, with Cormyr and Sembia being exceptions. And Cormyr actively encourages adventuring parties to be somewhere else with charters and peacebonds, and iirc Sembia is mildly hostile to adventurers.

If you don't want a party fighting small threats near Neverwinter or the few large cities... don't. That still leaves 90% of the map.

Voss wrote:

Yes...? A day or two's march of a major city is pretty safe for exactly this reason. Further out you start losing patrols to unexpected things, and that sort of attrition isn't sustainable.
Also, Bulette's aren't city threats. They're open road traveler threats. Killed some horses and a merchant or two and took off, disrupting traders.

Once that threat is impacting the community, (And further, it's a bulette), the issue isn't some merchants on the road. It's the small farming communities that are needed to sustain a city with a population of 20,000 people, the military would be deployed to remove the threat.

In order for these places to be as you describe the largest cities should be floating around 1000 population. Most town should be in the hundreds AT BEST. A huge army should consist of several hundred soldiers, not thousands of them, the way actual medieval armies were composed.

And the frontier towns (Dalelands and the Lords Alliance towns in the region around Waterdeep) are this size. They've released a lot of demographics over the years.

Good. For the frontiers. Let's put it this way. The opening story for 5e is Mines of Phandelver which takes place in and around a small town that is part of Neverwinters lands/economy. That town has within walking distance of it a big ass green dragon, a mine people know about with a Beholder in it, a bandit organization that has managed to take over the town, a banshee, and some goblins who are just attacking people on the road. For all intents and purposes this area is basically under siege by threats. Some are new and you could excuse that Neverwinter isn't aware of them yet to deploy it's military might to handle it and stabilize the area and others are not only well known but OLD and could have been taken care of at any point.

Why the feth does Neverwinter tolerate a green dragon with a huge hunting territory to nest within walking distance of one of it's towns? Like. The town is supposed to be within 3 days leisure travel by road (about 90 miles). The dragon can fly. People in Neverwinters towers can likely just SEE it flying around every time it goes on the hunt since the city itself is not too far outside of it's actual territory. Why hasn't any of the many churches that inhabit and service the 20,000+ population of Neverwinter not sent a cleric or a paladin along with some city guard to handle the banshee?

Mines and other adventures like it don't make any damn sense in the context of the larger world.

Never Winter can, and should, take their MASSIVE population and forge weapon and then deploy it's military to clean up it's surrounding lands. There is zero reason for a group of adventurers to have anything to do anywhere near Never Winter. It's threats should be rival nations more or less exclusively. A Orcish warband? Laughable by sheer numbers. An Orcish ARMY? Okay... so what are the 5 players going to do about it?

I feel like you're stepping into the quagmire of genre conventions here (and 5e mechanics are problematic because the system math is that soldiers > adventurers. That wasn't the case for older editions where immunity or high resistance to non-magical weapons made armies useless in a lot of monster fights), but for the rest of it... these towns and cities aren't nations. There are relatively few of those in the Forgotten Realms, and very few in the parts of the world that are the main focus. City states and frontier towns are the order of the day, with Cormyr and Sembia being exceptions. And Cormyr actively encourages adventuring parties to be somewhere else with charters and peacebonds, and iirc Sembia is mildly hostile to adventurers.

If you don't want a party fighting small threats near Neverwinter or the few large cities... don't. That still leaves 90% of the map.

1) The soldier do not equal adventurers is only true if the world was depowered by quite a lot. Forgotten Realms isn't a low powered setting. A good chunk of these fighting forces of the churches, of the city, of all these things are made up of what amounts to retired or adventurer equivalents. Sure, 48 of the 50 soldiers sent to kill the green dragon might be gak. But 2 of them will outlevel the players in Mines. And they have action economy and law of averages on their side.

2) No, these cities and towns are not nations. But a population of 20,000 NEEDS these towns and villages to sustain itself. The population is too big for them not to actively protect them as part of itself. Without those towns and villages the city would starve to death.

3) Of course I can just make up my own gak and do something else. Thats a silly ass argument. I am not critiquing what I can do (which is literally, infinitely, anything). I am critiquing what it actually is (which is fething silly).