Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Honestly I've not even worked out what "wokeness" even really is. It seems to shift and change meaning depending on if you're using it in the positive or the negative and on which generation you're in and even which social groups within a generation you're in.

I didn't feel the movie was political in any noticeable way.

I'm sure if you want to find a reason to be offended by it, you could find it, but that's true for anything.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I've not even worked out what "wokeness" even really is. It seems to shift and change meaning depending on if you're using it in the positive or the negative and on which generation you're in and even which social groups within a generation you're in.

Don’t worry. One commentator wrote a whole book about why Woke is destroying America….then couldn’t even define what they meant by Woke.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Yes, I speak for many RPG players. The group who advocates the "message" is tiny and loud on social media with the intention to cancel anybody who does not adhere to their weird world view.

D&D fans also will have to answer for WOTC´s latest atrocities even if this is not at first directly related to the movie. People will say: "D&D?! Those are the woke nuts. Leave me alone with that trash."

Good, we don't want you. The sooner these attitudes and the people that hold them off out of the hobby, the better. If you're so offended by the idea that the action lead in the movie is a woman or that WOTC, after several major foul-ups that caused upset to real, actual human beings (not just annonymous folks on the internet) with their depictions of racist cariacatures, have employed sensitivity readers to ensure that harm isn't caused again, then I'm not sure it's us that are the snowflakes here...

I could correct you on your other uninformed comments about the movie (there is, in fact, a male character who is deliberately OP to the point of laughability) or the rules (the new edition will likely carry forward the current rules for custom lineages, meaning your Half-Elf or Orc can simply pick from the traits of two races as you like) but mainly, I just want to make it clear that if you can claim to speak for 'many' RPG players then so can I, and trust me, there's more of us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Saw the movie again today, every bit as good as the first time and a lot of the humor works even better when you know where it's going (the Jarnathan bit, for example). It was a much busier screening as well, which gives me hope that despite the likelihood that Mario will knock it off the No.1 spot this weekend, it should have a pretty strong second week.

And if not, it was still the biggest movie in the world for its opening week, which given the brand's cinematic track record, is certainly something to celebrate!

Have fun with your emasculated main character! Meanwhile I am watching Conan from the 80s. Besides people like you would have been booted from our gaming group asap. We don´t suffer political ideologies at RPG games.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Don’t worry. One commentator wrote a whole book about why Woke is destroying America….then couldn’t even define what they meant by Woke.

I thought it was defined in a Floridsa court?

Asked what “woke” means more generally, [Desantis’ General Counsel Ryan] Newman said “it would be the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them.”

Backfire wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

The barbarian, who is a woman, acts like a barbarian should. The only unrealistic thing about it is that Michelle Rodriguez isn't particularly large, so she comes across as a rather slight barbarian. Beyond that, everything fits with the source material.

She was a Barbarian? Didn't see her rage once, I thought she was a fighter or brawler...any way, I felt she was fine for the role other than her height perhaps. But then again, my last Barbarian was 5'4" androgynous Elf, so maybe I shouldn't criticize...

You couldn´t identify her as a barbarian because she doesn´t have a muscular body. They could have looked for women with a body building background but that meant putting effort into the movie. Can´t have that!

Imagine shooting Conan and instead of casting a body builder they take Rick Moranis.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Imagine shooting Conan and instead of casting a body builder they take Rick Moranis.

That would have been pretty awesome, actually.

Backfire wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

I have watched a couple of scenes and this was enough to label the movie as bad. The writers were obviously forced to cram in as many IP protected CGI D&D monsters as possible which was a thoroughly bad experience to endure as a viewer. Less is more. And what about the cast? I read that the front line fighters were women (strong & independent vibes ) and that they took efforts to make the men look to be dumb and ineffective. Geez, this is She-Hulk series level of awful right there.

In most RPG systems (including D&D), genders have identical stats, so having a female frontrow tank is hardly weird or unexpected. Actually in a long-running campaign I run, two out of three physically strongest player characters are female...

At any rate, (spoiler) most powerful fighter in 'Honor Among Thieves' is a dude.

There wasn't actually that many D&D-monsters in the movie, the trailers just managed to show them all.

Any front fighter needs to be physically imposing. Most women aren´t so they are a bad fit with their 60 kg.

What do you have to do then? Screen for exceptional women who are tall and muscular. Did they do it? Nope! Lazy casting!

 Strg Alt wrote:
Have fun with your emasculated main character! Meanwhile I am watching Conan from the 80s.

Conan from the 80's is vastly different from the source material. The movies had to placate to Arnold's limited acting range. Conan in the source material had a sense of humor, understood and spoke many languages, was a brilliant leader and tactician.

While I enjoyed the 80's Conans, they were handicapped by Arnolds meager acting chops. They had to reduce the character in significant ways. I'd wager some folks would probably be calling him emasculated if it was released nowadays.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Have fun with your emasculated main character! Meanwhile I am watching Conan from the 80s. Besides people like you would have been booted from our gaming group asap. We don´t suffer political ideologies at RPG games.

I'll take my 'emasculated' characters (though having not watched the film, I have no idea how you'd apply that or any other description to any of the characters therein with any sort of authority ) over your white-male-power-fantasy-Conan types any day. Partly because the latter utterly bores me, but mostly because I want the media I engage with and the games I play to be accessible to more than just grumpy old white dudes stuck somewhere in the late 1980s...

The good news is that 'people like me' will still have gaming groups and movies to enjoy many years from now, while those of you that cannot handle the idea of a woman in an action role or a male lead who sings and dances better than he fights will find yourselves with both a rapidly dwindling and highly insular community to play with, and no movies left to enjoy save for those on your VHS shelves. That is, if you don't all eventually die off from heart attacks brought on by the frankly hilarious rage you all seem to feel when someone who doesn't look, sound, act or think like you gets to see themselves in fiction.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
By the way do they have half-races in the latest D&D movie? Idk but I would guess they don´t. Not very INCLUSIVE, if you ask me.

WOTC's idiocy in deciding that race-mixing is racist (like... what???) has nothing to do with this movie.

 Strg Alt wrote:
I have watched a couple of scenes and this was enough to label the movie as bad. The writers were obviously forced to cram in as many IP protected CGI D&D monsters as possible which was a thoroughly bad experience to endure as a viewer. Less is more. And what about the cast? I read that the front line fighters were women (strong & independent vibes ) and that they took efforts to make the men look to be dumb and ineffective. Geez, this is She-Hulk series level of awful right there.

As someone who went into this movie acutely aware of this as a potential issue (even the people making the film said that they went out of their way to emasculate the male characters) I can tell you that it is 100% not the case.

Everybody on the team contributes, significantly, and the final fight couldn't be more RPG if they tried, with all the player characters dogpiling the main bad guy.

The barbarian, who is a woman, acts like a barbarian should. The only unrealistic thing about it is that Michelle Rodriguez isn't particularly large, so she comes across as a rather slight barbarian. Beyond that, everything fits with the source material. The male characters, despite what the writers may have stated in interviews, were not idiots. The sorcerer (who is a half-elf, BTW) certainly has a lot of self doubt, but that's part of his character arc.

Your criticisms are not founded in any reality, and your pre-judgement of the movie based on the few scenes you've seen is premature and completely off-base.

Here is the source of the emasculation issue:
https://www.cbr.com/dnd-movie-emasculates-leading-men-not-woke/

The writers said it themselves and therefore this isn´t a "conspiracy" made up by viewers. The group act like buffoons and D&D fans misinterpret this as being funny. It is not. I remember the scene with the "Speak with Dead" spell and how badly they manage to gather info.

Barbarian:
Bad casting choice. Next time hire a tall, muscular woman. She may not be able to act like a professional but at least she looks the part to make the fight scenes believable. And with fight scene I don´t mean CGI stuff where the woman turns into an owlbear and hurls people around like in a video game. That was bad and takes agency from the actors.
Imagine Brock Lesnar getting beaten by a midget. You won´t see it at WWE. Why? It would look stupid. Wrestling folks know this but in Hollywood everything which may empower women is good enough for the flick.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Have fun with your emasculated main character! Meanwhile I am watching Conan from the 80s. Besides people like you would have been booted from our gaming group asap. We don´t suffer political ideologies at RPG games.

I'll take my 'emasculated' characters (though having not watched the film, I have no idea how you'd apply that or any other description to any of the characters therein with any sort of authority ) over your white-male-power-fantasy-Conan types any day. Partly because the latter utterly bores me, but mostly because I want the media I engage with and the games I play to be accessible to more than just grumpy old white dudes stuck somewhere in the late 1980s...

The good news is that 'people like me' will still have gaming groups and movies to enjoy many years from now, while those of you that cannot handle the idea of a woman in an action role or a male lead who sings and dances better than he fights will find yourselves with both a rapidly dwindling and highly insular community to play with, and no movies left to enjoy save for those on your VHS shelves. That is, if you don't all eventually die off from heart attacks brought on by the frankly hilarious rage you all seem to feel when someone who doesn't look, sound, act or think like you gets to see themselves in fiction.

Don't engage with him on his terms - he's devolved into a drooling troll.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Barbarian:
Bad casting choice. Next time hire a tall, muscular woman. She may not be able to act like a professional but at least she looks the part to make the fight scenes believable. And with fight scene I don´t mean CGI stuff where the woman turns into an owlbear and hurls people around like in a video game. That was bad and takes agency from the actors.
Imagine Brock Lesnar getting beaten by a midget. You won´t see it at WWE. Why? It would look stupid. Wrestling folks know this but in Hollywood everything which may empower women is good enough for the flick.

Does Rey Mysterio count as a midget?

Women have won WWE Cruiserweight title (Chyna, at least), and Tessa Blanchard won Impact Championship. Vince McMahon and David Arquette have won Championship belts. Plenty of silly stuff happens to stretch the Kayfabe...

Why is Doric turning into Owlbear "bad"? Are you implying that it would not happen in actual D&D, or that it would be better if it was a male druid? Isn't that sort of concept exactly what you call for, a 'believable' method how a tiny woman could beat up armed guys?

I'm bit baffled why you hold Conan as some sort of paragon of 'believable non-wokeness', as in that movie you have Valeria beating up dudes (and even running away from her in fear), and she saves Conan's life (twice, IIRC).

I prefer that casting directors cast people with lines in the film who can.... you know..... act. Call me crazy!

The movie was very clear that she was a barbarian and her background was very clear about it. It really could not have been more clear in the movie unless you wanted them to literally stop the movie and label her class and her ability scores beside her in a freeze frame.

Secondly, if the writer's wanted to emasculate their male characters.... they failed pretty hard. Sure, Chris Pine and Simon were idiots but that was not a trait unique to them in this film. They all felt like a pretty normal D&D group that is slaved to a d20 roll for success. A lot of D&D characters end up doing pretty stupid or clumsy things thanks to bad rolls of the dice. It felt like it captured that pretty well in the movie.

 nels1031 wrote:

Conan from the 80's is vastly different from the source material. The movies had to placate to Arnold's limited acting range. Conan in the source material had a sense of humor, understood and spoke many languages, was a brilliant leader and tactician.

While I enjoyed the 80's Conans, they were handicapped by Arnolds meager acting chops. They had to reduce the character in significant ways. I'd wager some folks would probably be calling him emasculated if it was released nowadays.

Yes that's my problem with the 80's Conan as well (though for the most part I love that movie), it's not much like Howard's Conan, or Marvel's Conan comics. Arnold's Conan is way too goofy. He would become much better actor later, but Conan is one of his worst works in terms of acting.
Bit of same thing what MCU did with Thor (especially in later movies).

 Easy E wrote:
I prefer that casting directors cast people with lines in the film who can.... you know..... act. Call me crazy!

The movie was very clear that she was a barbarian and her background was very clear about it. It really could not have been more clear in the movie unless you wanted them to literally stop the movie and label her class and her ability scores beside her in a freeze frame.

Secondly, if the writer's wanted to emasculate their male characters.... they failed pretty hard. Sure, Chris Pine and Simon were idiots but that was not a trait unique to them in this film. They all felt like a pretty normal D&D group that is slaved to a d20 roll for success. A lot of D&D characters end up doing pretty stupid or clumsy things thanks to bad rolls of the dice. It felt like it captured that pretty well in the movie.

It's not exactly impossible to cast women that are both believably muscular and trained and have acting chops, you know? Even the abysmal sequel to Conan the Barbarian managed to gather their wits enough to hire Grace Jones, who absolutely looked and acted like someone that could give Arnie a hard time, and i'm sure equally talented and trained women would be available today if one was inclined to cast for them. A barbarian doesn't have to look like a powerlifter/benchpress person, other types of athletic/muscular body exist.

 Strg Alt wrote:
You couldn´t identify her as a barbarian because she doesn´t have a muscular body. They could have looked for women with a body building background but that meant putting effort into the movie. Can´t have that!

 Strg Alt wrote:

Imagine Brock Lesnar getting beaten by a midget. You won´t see it at WWE. Why? It would look stupid. Wrestling folks know this but in Hollywood everything which may empower women is good enough for the flick.

Good examples, of how what the audience expects doesn't actually match reality (or fantasy art). If a barbarian is your fur clad northern europesk looking chap, he wouldn't look like a body builder. Human bodies that need strength and endurance can't develop that way. Leave aside the guys who do close protection and look at the ones that are expected to disappear off for a month doing traditional SF stuff. Completely different physiques. Also not actually that tall. Of the chaps I have worked with who were 5 foot 8/10 and fairly slight, they would have done terrible unteleviseable things to Brock because they had been prepared for a completely different set of tasks, instead of looking tough. But a D&D barbarian is fantasy art, it isn't really based on anything real. on that basis you can make it whatever size and gender you like as its all fairly absurd.

There is no snowflake more easily offended than the anti woke nut jobs.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I prefer that casting directors cast people with lines in the film who can.... you know..... act. Call me crazy!

The movie was very clear that she was a barbarian and her background was very clear about it. It really could not have been more clear in the movie unless you wanted them to literally stop the movie and label her class and her ability scores beside her in a freeze frame.

Secondly, if the writer's wanted to emasculate their male characters.... they failed pretty hard. Sure, Chris Pine and Simon were idiots but that was not a trait unique to them in this film. They all felt like a pretty normal D&D group that is slaved to a d20 roll for success. A lot of D&D characters end up doing pretty stupid or clumsy things thanks to bad rolls of the dice. It felt like it captured that pretty well in the movie.

It's not exactly impossible to cast women that are both believably muscular and trained and have acting chops, you know? Even the abysmal sequel to Conan the Barbarian managed to gather their wits enough to hire Grace Jones, who absolutely looked and acted like someone that could give Arnie a hard time, and i'm sure equally talented and trained women would be available today if one was inclined to cast for them. A barbarian doesn't have to look like a powerlifter/benchpress person, other types of athletic/muscular body exist.

They did. They hired Michelle Rodriguez who is pretty well known for playing a "Bad Ass".

- Fast and the Furious Movies
- SWAT
- Battle of Los Angeles
- Machete duology
- Resident: Evil series

To claim that Michelle Rodriquez is not known for playing ass-kickers is..... certainly a take.

Sorry she didn't do it for you. Perhaps you wanted Gina Carano instead?

 Easy E wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I prefer that casting directors cast people with lines in the film who can.... you know..... act. Call me crazy!

The movie was very clear that she was a barbarian and her background was very clear about it. It really could not have been more clear in the movie unless you wanted them to literally stop the movie and label her class and her ability scores beside her in a freeze frame.

Secondly, if the writer's wanted to emasculate their male characters.... they failed pretty hard. Sure, Chris Pine and Simon were idiots but that was not a trait unique to them in this film. They all felt like a pretty normal D&D group that is slaved to a d20 roll for success. A lot of D&D characters end up doing pretty stupid or clumsy things thanks to bad rolls of the dice. It felt like it captured that pretty well in the movie.

It's not exactly impossible to cast women that are both believably muscular and trained and have acting chops, you know? Even the abysmal sequel to Conan the Barbarian managed to gather their wits enough to hire Grace Jones, who absolutely looked and acted like someone that could give Arnie a hard time, and i'm sure equally talented and trained women would be available today if one was inclined to cast for them. A barbarian doesn't have to look like a powerlifter/benchpress person, other types of athletic/muscular body exist.

They did. They hired Michelle Rodriguez who is pretty well known for playing a "Bad Ass".

- Fast and the Furious Movies
- SWAT
- Battle of Los Angeles
- Machete duology
- Resident: Evil series

To claim that Michelle Rodriquez is not known for playing ass-kickers is..... certainly a take.

Sorry she didn't do it for you. Perhaps you wanted Gina Carano instead?

Eh, i found the cast agreeable enough, it did not scream 'barbarian' but it worked in the context of the rest of the party, i do not really see the problem tbh. I also did not find the male party member 'emasculated' or whatever the current talking point is, that smells like a fabricated controversy to me. Especially since it's not the first time that it gets brought up, people said similar things about Chris Helmsworth in the Ghostbuster remake, ultimately because they lack a sense of humour.

Saw the film today, really enjoyed it.

They captured the feel of a real D&D group. I.e. trying to do cool stuff then fluffing it in hilarious ways, and not really taking things too seriously.

I don't get the whole emasculated lead thing, chris pines character was never made out to be a great fighter, wheres as michelle rodriquez was. If you think she doesn't have the right figure to play a barbarian you don't know DnD, Halfling barbarians are a thing.

 Strg Alt wrote:


Here is the source of the emasculation issue:
https://www.cbr.com/dnd-movie-emasculates-leading-men-not-woke/

The writers said it themselves and therefore this isn´t a "conspiracy" made up by viewers. The group act like buffoons and D&D fans misinterpret this as being funny. It is not. I remember the scene with the "Speak with Dead" spell and how badly they manage to gather info.

My mans, you are replying to someone who mentioned their apprehension going into the movie because they already knew what you linked to. You're letting slip you're not even really reading others' posts.

I recommend you get a grip.

"Emasculation" is certainly a thing writers do sometimes when there are multiple characters vying for attention, meaningful role and screentime. I suppose in 'Honor Among Thieves', closest you get is the scene where Edgin struggles to cut his ties in comical fashion, while Holga beats up the guards. "Emasculation" is just a mean, a literary device, which can be used for good or ill. It's not a "woke era" invention. For example, in jail block scene in first Star Wars film there is clear emasculation of Luke's and Han Solo's characters. They get pinned and they begin to picker with each other, forcing Leia to take action, thus rescuing the rescuers. This might be cited as artificial way to elevate Leia's abilities, but it also allows her to project her personality.

Negative example would be Justice Smith's character in 'Fallen Kingdom', who is written a complete wimp to give contrast for two female main characters of the group. While Simon in 'Honor Among Thieves' shows somewhat similar uncertainities, he is also shown most powerful member of the group.

"Emasculation" (if it can be called such) is not limited to male characters. For example in 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', Buffy is often given limitations in strength or intelligence to give weakest members of the group - Willow and especially Xander - something to do. Once again, redeeming factor is compability with character personalities: Buffy is written smart, but not 'book smart', and Xander is established as someone whose guts and loyalty exceed his physical prowess.

I thought Michelle Rodriguez did a great job as the barbarian role. I wasn't bothered by her casting.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Here is the source of the emasculation issue:
https://www.cbr.com/dnd-movie-emasculates-leading-men-not-woke/

The writers said it themselves and therefore this isn´t a "conspiracy" made up by viewers. The group act like buffoons and D&D fans misinterpret this as being funny. It is not. I remember the scene with the "Speak with Dead" spell and how badly they manage to gather info.

I already addressed that. What the writers said does not reflect the reality of the film they made. And you don't remember the Speak with Dead scene, as what you've seen is only a small part of that entire sequence.

Again, you haven't seen the movie. We have, and we're telling you that all this political/woke/identity politics nonsense - no matter what the writers may say in interviews - simply isn't part of this movie.

 Strg Alt wrote:
You couldn´t identify her as a barbarian because she doesn´t have a muscular body. They could have looked for women with a body building background but that meant putting effort into the movie. Can´t have that!

Michelle beat Gina Carano in Fast 6 and then Ronda Rousey in Fast 7. I hope they keep finding bigger and bigger women for her to unrealistically fight.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I've not even worked out what "wokeness" even really is.

Here is a rather succinct distillation of the discussion. It details what it is, and how it is often misused and mischaracterised (ie. simply including a female protagonist is not "woke" - a trap that many online outrage merchants tend to fall into).

Plus you get to listen to the dulcet tones of a slightly tipsy Scotsman/published author who has somewhat of an idea of what makes a good story and what doesn't.

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no snowflake more easily offended than the anti woke nut jobs.

That's demonstrably false. It's a smoke/fire situation. Those reaction to woke idiots are the smoke, and they can't exist without the fire in the first place.

When Holga body slammed the palace guard I was perfectly happy.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no snowflake more easily offended than the anti woke nut jobs.

That's demonstrably false. It's a smoke/fire situation. Those reaction to woke idiots are the smoke, and they can't exist without the fire in the first place.

Well THAT is a ridiculous thing to say. When civil rights movements want equality the people opposed to it act out. When women wanted to be able to vote the misogynists act out. When people started getting representation in cinema the ists act out. I am not saying there are not "woke idiots" (there are always extremist idiots). But if you think these guys were not going to do what they are doing until they were instigated by their opposite idiots you are ignoring actual history.

The haters were always going to hate.

"Woke" isn't the civil rights movement.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Woke" isn't the civil rights movement.

No it's not. But haters hate where ever they can. Lets not pretend being upset that Michelle Rodriguez is the competent front line fighter as being "woke" is anything but misogyny. Especially when they haven't even seen the movie. Let's not pretend that being upset about Pakistani American Muslim representation in Mr Marvel as some kind of "woke agenda" is anything but xenophobia.

Just because it's not arguing for the right to vote and an end to segregation doesn't mean the haters are not the same kinds of people acting out about the same kinds of things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

What the writers said does not reflect the reality of the film they made. And you don't remember the Speak with Dead scene, as what you've seen is only a small part of that entire sequence.

Really I don't understand why a scene designed for all around comedy is example of 'wokeness' or 'emasculation'. It's actually how a wicked GM would 'play' the corpse: "What, did that count as a question? -Yes. -So we have only three questions left? -No, you have only two left. -[Others:] Shut up!! Don't you ever learn!? -No. One remaining..."