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chaos0xomega wrote: I mean - thats how I got into wargames as a 12-13 year old. Granted, it was pitched to me less as "see if you like the rules of the game" and more "see which faction you like the rules of and want to collect and play". MCP is easy because (AFAIK) theres no real restriction on which models can work together, but in a game like 40k or Warmachine thats not really true, so he might like the looks of models from several factions... but he can only pick one (unless of course you got deep pockets and are willing to feed a habit). Your 12 year old has more critical logic/reasoning skills and patience than you give them credit for, I am sure if you pitched it as a case of "you will get minis, but first lets play 2-3 games to figure out which minis it is you want", I can't imagine them not being all over that like white on rice.
Its all how you present the sales pitch my friend.
The problem is not the look of single factions.
The problem is the start up cost for the two of us.
It has nothing to do with the sales pitch and he’ll play just about any game out there.
The start up cost for two of us is what I have an issue with.
$560 is a ton of money to spend on a game for us to start.
You don’t think that’s a lot of money for two players to start?
Seriously. Even GW doesn’t charge that much.
We got into Underworlds for $150 and have four warbands that we can play and painted up. It’s only 3-7 models each, which is easy for a young kid to build and paint.
We don’t need to go farther than that and can still play each other and have some variety.
How does $560 for two factions compute? I can get a Warcry starter for $230. Half the price. Kill team is the same. Even if we wanted to start 40k it’s half the price PP is asking. Literally any other game out there does not cost as much as PP is asking TO START.
We don’t even want full armies. We just need a decent starter set to play, with the possibility of expanding. We don’t NEED full armies, and to say that anyone first starting out needs a full army with options is a fallacy that PP is expecting everyone to buy into. A cheaper starter is all I’m asking for and I’m being railed against for it?
I find it weird that I have to argue the point.
Anyways, I’m done here. I guess we won’t be playing until there’s a cheaper option. Though maybe not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/21 02:18:07
MaxT wrote: Besides that, the attitude of “hur dur just proxy” brings in precisely zero revenue for PP. If PP doesn’t sell these new models, the game is a bust. Simple as that. And shutting off any revenue from peeps walking into an LGS looking for something new to try due to a crazy high initial buyin doesn’t help in the least.
playing the game has always some revenue for the company
buying the models but never play the game makes money it first but does not create a community or "word of mouth" about the game and if it is worth playing
while only buying the rules and active playing the game, gives less money but creates more revenue over time because it helps building a community
as for a game to sell, it needs people playing it simply because if people think no one in the area plays is or they don't know if any people who like it, they won't buy it at all
so having people "proxy" with their existing collection still helps as those are still PP models
Ghool wrote: Clearly you have never walked into an LGS with a 12 year old.
‘Hey dad that looks super cool! Can we get it and try it out?’
‘Sure son, but we won’t buy those models. We will download everything for free, and test it at home!’
well, my 10 year old started to play Kings of War 2 months ago
we played Deadzone, Warmachine, KoW, X-Wing, Armada and some others at home for a while (started out with X-Wing because he likes Star Wars, was the only game I bought before we played it, the others we did with the stuff I already had at home), and than he settled on Kings of War as he liked it the most, we walked into the FLGS that stocked Mantic and he decided on an Army (and yes we bought the full Army for him)
and one of the reason we took KoW was that we are more flexible in models and he liked that he can build his own ones if he want to
(and we are also going to use my Warmachine models for KoW instead of doing MkIV, as he likes the style of models, but KoW as a game)
if you just want to play the game, and you already have a full collection at home, no need to buy the new stuff on release or switch to MkIV until they old models have rules, specially if it is too expensive for your liking
and if you are with your son at the store and he says he wants to new models, make it a birthday or christmas gift, or just buy the one model and use it together with the old models and rules until you get int
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
This thread had me looking at the launch article from PP about MKIV. Those $200 startersets (25ish models) are just for small game 50p lists with expansion sets to bump that up to 75p being aimed at around $175 (with only 15 models mentioned)!
And then you'd still have to get a few extra things to turn it into a standard 100p list? That's steep for that small number of 3D printed models.
The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice...
kodos wrote: and generally people "test" things before they buy something
and generally people don't care if companies say you are allowed official models only, if they play at home
funny that
And that doesn't get full experience anvway so not applicaple.
Why don't people just play bases with name? If you don'w care about miniatures total result then. Yet people want miniatures for miniature game. Funno that
tneva82 wrote: Why don't people just play bases with name? If you don'w care about miniatures total result then. Yet people want miniatures for miniature game. Funno that
there are a lot of people who play bases with names or printed cards, specially with grand tactical games
yet, people buying miniatures from a unique IP just to play a test game to know if they like a game or not, this must be unique to your local scene
the thing I usually see is either people borrow an army, the club offering armies, or they just go with blanks, I have even seen people going with Lego for a test game, but I have never encountered someone who buys minis without having played a demo game first
but if of course, if you want the full experience for your first Demo game, it is getting expensive, though WM/H is than still cheaper to get into than 40k or AoS, funny
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/21 16:54:20
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
It is fairly common in the US for people to "buy first to try out" rather than proxying everything for an initial test to see if they want to go in or not. This may well be a bit of a regional thing (e.g., some places, countries, etc.) depending on how hard it is to get the stuff in the first place. If you know you're going to have to online order, then yeah, the proxy test first is probably more common. But it is not unusual for people in some areas to go to the shop, see something cool, and decide to give it a try--that is, buy it.
We can argue in circles all day as to whether you should try games out using proxies with downloadable rules, but that does not address the still very real question of "entry level price point." IMO, PP's new starters are very much on the high side, and of questionable value to some (no rulebooks, cards, dice, etc.), and this could be a barrier to it picking up for many areas. In particular, that "impulse buy to give it a shot" I think will be less common with that price point. Yes, GW starters are also expensive, but there are smaller ways to get in and even the big box 2 player starters have enough for 2 folks to try it out, and GW has a much bigger "brand recognition."
It's important to remember that every person enters into and does their minis gaming hobbies differently. Just because one person always proxies to try out new games does not mean that everyone does. What works for you may not be the way other people approach it, and likewise, how other people check things out may not be how you would do it. Stop the fekking gatekeeping already.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/21 17:10:10
One reason I started WArhammer 40k is because the starter set was cheap. Yes, 40k cheap. Yes, there was the big box Dark Imperium that was very expensive, but GW also had a cheaper alternative - Know know fear - a 2p starter set that gave you 31 miniatures and everything you need to start playing. Cheaper than a boardgame, more minis, the minis looked cool. That was enough for me. But if the only option was the big, expensive box, then my adventure into miniature games might have never started.
So yeah, if the only starter set for MK4 is the very expensive box, that's troublesome. Esp. since the most expensive starter for 40k is cheaper, gives you more minis, full rulebook, a ton of plastic terrain, and a gaming board. But I understand PP is also selling battleboxes? 1 warcaster + 2 warjacks? That could help get new players into the game.
Anyway, I have a question: what happens with older models for Warmachine? They are phased out? All of them? Some? Which ones? Is there a list with the legal models in MK4? For example, I have some models from MK3 starter set - are they legal in MK4? I'm talking about Cygnar - Maddox, Firefly, Lancer, Ironclad +stormguard infantry. I also have Stormsmith storm towers. Will I be able to play MK4 with them?
And what about Cryx? Is the entire faction sent to the bin?
And there's any point in buying older models, like Deathjack or Thunderhead? Are they legal in MK4? I'm really confused right now. I really like Warmachine, and I love the models, but man, PP seems to try it's best to piss me off and lose me as a potential customer/gamer.
Anyway, I have a question: what happens with older models for Warmachine? They are phased out? All of them? Some? Which ones? Is there a list with the legal models in MK4? For example, I have some models from MK3 starter set - are they legal in MK4? I'm talking about Cygnar - Maddox, Firefly, Lancer, Ironclad +stormguard infantry. I also have Stormsmith storm towers. Will I be able to play MK4 with them?
And what about Cryx? Is the entire faction sent to the bin?
And there's any point in buying older models, like Deathjack or Thunderhead? Are they legal in MK4? I'm really confused right now. I really like Warmachine, and I love the models, but man, PP seems to try it's best to piss me off and lose me as a potential customer/gamer.
All old models will get updated MK4 rules. Some of them will be used to make armies for the the "Prime" (Standard) format that are made up of exclusively legacy models. Everything else will be for the Unlimited format in some form.
PP just published a list of the legacy Prime armies they expect to have ready for launch. You can find the list here:
Yeah, maybe if you are a pro painter looking for a good model to paint for a top competition, those are not going to be your first picks. But otherwise, for gaming purposes, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and you can have them look great and enjoy how cheap they are at the same time. These model-quality discussions are especially weird, considering how low standards so many of our players have when it comes to their armies, to the point that I start believing that for many of them (not you, LunarSol, but I have even specific examples from my local community in mind) it seems to be an excuse to give themselves for why they are overpaying so much.
Lovely job on those Trolls! I do think Trolls really translate best to PVC. The large sculpts and big cartoony faces suffer a lot less from the loss of detail you see with most PVC sculpts and their big fingers and bulgy muscles and tendency towards irregular stonework details all just play to the medium's strengths. I still notice little things compared to some of the resin trolls (Madrak3 is a phenomenal sculpt all around) but of those MK3 battlebox casters, I think Ragnor is easily the best of the bunch. PP also generally did a really good job of avoiding going 2D with the PVC. Where it REALLY gets me is the lines of Steamforged, that basically lost all of their sense of motion and personality and turned their game lines into a bunch of boy band poses.
The funny thing is, I was a big fan of PVC once upon a time. Not that I couldn't see its issues, but they didn't really bother me, particularly the stuff PP was making with it. The bigger issue definitely comes with the logistics of it and the tendency for things to sit in limbo for years waiting for overseas production. People forget the real reason anthology books died is they often resulted in model rules being shown that due to production delays wouldn't see release for 2-3 years. I've kind of learned that all materials have their quirks and issues and you've just got to adapt accordingly, but PVC tends to be the one that most concerns me overall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/21 19:11:08
Why would I do that? I’m already invested in WM and have tons of models. That are now largely useless until sometime around 2024.
You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
No I can’t because I never bought into the theme lists are awesome BS.
I have a large collection of varied models that were fun to paint and looked cool.
So aside from my small list of Cephalyx? No I can’t. At all.
And as for the battle boxes? Why they were a GenCon only exclusive is beyond me.
I was planning to buy two of them from their website but they killed the sales after a day due to not being able to keep up with demand. Yet, the whole point of going to 3D prints was to help with availability.
I was a massive fan of their IP. Steampunk is my jam. But with their pricing and lack of availability, I can’t justify spending more money on their stuff. Especially when it’s more expensive than GW!
Just trying to imagine a world where PP was on point with this release and messaging.
Not fixating on GenCon and instead hitting October, then doing later cons, and having their production fully sorted out.
Launching with the list of of Prime armies, and stats.
Focusing first on bringing back the old guard with all the older models getting actual armies to play, then stealthily saying they're moving forward with the time jump where they include less and less of the older models in the newer armies. Effectively making the Prime/Unlimited split without the hard delineation.
PP just dropped the complete list of Legacy armies making their way into the Prime Arena:
Blackclad Army (Circle)
Tharn Army (Circle)
Convergence Army
Crucible Guard Army
Bane Army (Cryx)
Blackfleet Army (Cryx)
Storm Knight Army (Cygnar)
Trencher Army (Cygnar)
Grymkin Army
Infernals Army
Man-O-War Army (Khador)
Winter Guard Army (Khador)
Blighted Nyss Army (Legion)
Blighted Ogrun Army (Legion)
Blindwater Army (Mercenary)
Cephalyx Army (Mercenary)
Farrow Army (Mercenary)
Privateer Army (Mercenary)
Rhulic Army (Mercenary)
Steelhead Army (Mercenary)
Exemplar Army (Protectorate)
Flameguard Army (Protectorate)
Dawnguard Army (Retribution)
Mage Hunter Army (Retribution)
Immortals Army (Skorne)
Praetorian Army (Skorne)
Northkin Army (Trollbloods)
United Kriels Army (Trollbloods)
Anyway, I have a question: what happens with older models for Warmachine? They are phased out? All of them? Some? Which ones? Is there a list with the legal models in MK4? For example, I have some models from MK3 starter set - are they legal in MK4? I'm talking about Cygnar - Maddox, Firefly, Lancer, Ironclad +stormguard infantry. I also have Stormsmith storm towers. Will I be able to play MK4 with them?
And what about Cryx? Is the entire faction sent to the bin?
And there's any point in buying older models, like Deathjack or Thunderhead? Are they legal in MK4? I'm really confused right now. I really like Warmachine, and I love the models, but man, PP seems to try it's best to piss me off and lose me as a potential customer/gamer.
All old models will get updated MK4 rules. Some of them will be used to make armies for the the "Prime" (Standard) format that are made up of exclusively legacy models. Everything else will be for the Unlimited format in some form.
PP just published a list of the legacy Prime armies they expect to have ready for launch. You can find the list here:
Thank you. Actually, after looking at this list and reading the beta rules and stat cards, I'm starting to get cautiously optimistic for MK4. I'm happy with the armies for Cryx - I think they could have included 1 more caster - say, 1 version of Gaspy, but aside that, I like it. I'm surprised Deathjack, Nightmare and Barathrum are not on the list, but maybe they will be included in the Blackfleet army. And I suppose the Wraith Engine will be legal once Collossal/Battle engine rules are included in mk4.
For Retribution I'm sad Defender of Ios didn't make the cut, but maybe they will include AFG in another list. Come on, it's too cool not to have it!
So, the 50 point skirmish level is basically Brawlmachine, and from here you can expand up. I like it.
The list also confuses me a little - eg Everblight have got two forces listed. However in general that was their entire mortal side listed - either Nyss or Ogre.
So it still doesn't really let me know what is getting chopped and what is staying; esp on the warbeast front - esp as Everblights thing was being warbeast heavy
I would assume grotesques, rotwings, hellmouth, Incubi, and Forsaken are out. Warbeast wise, based on Cryx it looks like you'll probably retain most (if not all) beast options, aside from maybe character beasts.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Please note that something not on the list is not 'Chopped'. It will just not have rules on release in October, but is supposed to get them eventually throughout the next year.
Warjack/Warbeast themes were a relic of the early Mk3 theme design where you had to take certain amounts of a specific type of unit to get the free points. Once they swapped to requisition points the need for battlegroup specific themes dropped off the map. They've been near the top of my chopping block wishlist for years now. I expect most of the warjack/beast options to be available though perhaps divided up a bit.
Cyel wrote: Please note that something not on the list is not 'Chopped'. It will just not have rules on release in October, but is supposed to get them eventually throughout the next year.
Not quite. The list contains specifically those items which will be playable in the Prime Arena under Mk4 as armies. There are additional items that may be included for play in the Prime Arena through some other means (hints of possibly being included as cadre options), but PP was very clear in saying that many (most) of the items that didn't fall within the context of the armies listed would not be playable in Prime Arena (and therefore could be described as "chopped").
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/22 14:39:47
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Even though I expect myself and most of my players to stick to Prime, particularly since this list covers quite a bit of the popular themes as is, I'm pretty excited for Unlimited as a casual element. Like, its not something I expect to see a lot of events for or anything, but it's something I'm excited to see show up in pick up games even if I'm playing a Prime army myself.
Overread wrote: Honestly of the GW duel army sets I wonder how many are people starting with a friend and how many are simply people who are already in the GW ecosystem simply swapping models and trading with friends also already in the hobby
Because I'd wager they are not beginner/entry products save when someone is already buying and looking to move to a new army.
Nobody will ever convince me that these box are majority bought by "people starting to play that will share the box with a buddy".
They are more likely bought by people already in and anchored hard by GW price so they see these boxes are huge "saves", or (and this one is probably the majority) box breakers and resellers.
Grot 6 wrote: What are you supposed to do with the models you already have, bin them?
PP is really not doing themselves favors. I think that they are becoming victims of their own Page 5 propaganda, considering what they are trying to do here.
What you didn't read their manifesto?
They are totally not "destroying the word" (one could call that a End Time event), and they will totally do a reboot (like AoS), where your existing army is just unusable.
No no no, you see, here the goal is to stop selling all the old minies, and give pretty mediocre and basic rules for "some" armies (looks like my Morrowan force wasn't worth doing an army out of it, despite it being one of their most recent release) that will only be playable in a format nobody will play (Legend).
It's TOTALLY different than what GW has done to fantasy guys! TOTLY
tneva82 wrote: Generally people prefer to play miniature game with miniatues. Funny that.
But don't you get it? Only the army price count!
Here, take that game where armies only contain 3 infantry sized minies, they are ONLY 150$ each, which means that the WHOLE ARMY is ONLY 450$, which is clearly less than the cost of GW armies, thus its a great deal!
LunarSol wrote: You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
I'm sure the Bretonnian and Tomb King players are also greatly enjoying playing AoS right now.
This thread had me looking at the launch article from PP about MKIV. Those $200 startersets (25ish models) are just for small game 50p lists with expansion sets to bump that up to 75p being aimed at around $175 (with only 15 models mentioned)!
And then you'd still have to get a few extra things to turn it into a standard 100p list? That's steep for that small number of 3D printed models.
And this ladies and gents is the PERFECT example of how the majority of people will react when introduced to that new MKIV.
You can pretend all you want that "it's akshually fairly priced if you look at the whole army price" or "Just proxy it with peanuts and bottle caps" is what everyone should do, but at the end of the day, people will come, see the price, see the content and make a very simple and quick judgement of value, one that will make them realize that, even compared to GW, this thing is incredibly expensive yet stingy in what it gives you.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/08/22 15:30:08
I think people are overlooking the value of having a full set of options for the jacks, both in a gameplay sense and in the sense of materials provided. That's often the big hidden cost of GW value boxes. They regularly restrict you to suboptimal weapon loadouts to the point where its pretty common for players to immediately replace their box set models with the far more expensive general releases to play the better config.
Maybe that's what PP should have done? Sell a single jack loadout, cut a unit. Make it $150 for a static 50 point loadout and make people buy the extra jack loadouts later in singles? That doesn't seem worth it to me, but it's probably a better way to make people think they're getting a deal.
There's a MASSIVE difference between GW and PP tho.
When GW want to add more loadout option, it will make the sprue bigger/numerous.
When PP want to add more loadout options, it just add more stuff on the 3D printing plate.
LunarSol wrote: I don't understand how that's relevant to the contents of the starter boxes?
You were the one making a point about pricing.
You realize that pricing is usually tied to the production cost right?
You don't just cut options for lulz and giggles, even when you are GW.
Why would I do that? I’m already invested in WM and have tons of models. That are now largely useless until sometime around 2024.
You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
No I can’t because I never bought into the theme lists are awesome BS.
I have a large collection of varied models that were fun to paint and looked cool.
So aside from my small list of Cephalyx? No I can’t. At all.
Well, you can do what our group does. play the models you like and keep playing the edition you like. We have no real interest in MK IV "streamlined" rules changes. we all have good sized armies with all the rules for MKIII so that is what we will keep playing....i also dislike the move away from steampunk, if i want that i can play another game system.
(HN) wrote:
There's a MASSIVE difference between GW and PP tho.
When GW want to add more loadout option, it will make the sprue bigger/numerous. When PP want to add more loadout options, it just add more stuff on the 3D printing plate.
Once upon a time GW LOVED kit bashing and custom models now it is effectively officially forbidden, and when it comes to extra options specifically, they are actively discouraging it. there is no reason to have 14 primaris LTs as separate kits when you could just add a weapons sprue to the box of a single kit...other than of course to force people to buy all of the kits separately to increase sales just to get the different weapon options.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
LunarSol wrote: I don't understand how that's relevant to the contents of the starter boxes?
You were the one making a point about pricing.
You realize that pricing is usually tied to the production cost right?
You don't just cut options for lulz and giggles, even when you are GW.
Do you think there's no cost to produce all the Warjack options? Like there's a reason in the starter box contents they take up a third of the picture. They are not an insignificant chunk of the contents in either sculpting, printing or material. I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Btw, I already know there's no rulebook or unit cards in the box. What about accessories? Dice are hardly a problem for a new player but what about markers for effects and spells? Rulers? Those Tactic cards that are apparently going to be important.
I can make a comparison to the Asoiaf starters I've bought recently and they have all these (+ nice 2D cardboard terrain) in abundance, several punchboards of the stuff. I remember mk2 / 3 starters also coming with tokens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/22 18:35:33
aphyon wrote: Once upon a time GW LOVED kit bashing and custom models now it is effectively officially forbidden, and when it comes to extra options specifically, they are actively discouraging it. there is no reason to have 14 primaris LTs as separate kits when you could just add a weapons sprue to the box of a single kit...other than of course to force people to buy all of the kits separately to increase sales just to get the different weapon options.
Oh yes, I know, trust me I know.
I'm the first one to decry the rampant anti hobby stance of GW that actively discourage kitbashing by pushing more and more monopose stuff and removing all the wargear options that aren't "in the box".
That still doesn't change the fact that thos changes are made by the bean counters at GW that want to save some pennies on the dollar by making smaller/less sprues per boxes.
PP doesn't even have that excuse, or rather if you really want to be honest they do, but in an infinitly reduced capacity due to the nature of 3D printing.
Cyel wrote: Btw, I already know there's no rulebook or unit cards in the box. What about accessories? Dice are hardly a problem for a new player but what about markers for effects and spells? Rulers? Those Tactic cards that are apparently going to be important.
I can make a comparison to the Asoiaf starters I've bought recently and they have all these (+ nice 2D cardboard terrain) in abundance, several punchboards of the stuff. I remember mk2 / 3 starters also coming with tokens.
I expect the tactics cards to be a feature in the app.
Tokens would definitely be nice, though the standard cardboard punchout variety we see with a lot of these games these days kind of defeats the purpose of the switch to 3D printing. Most of those are handled overseas and have with plenty of games, been cause for delays with shipping disruptions. The plastic tokens PP sells officially would be a nice add for sure and they've included them in the past, but I'd wager those aren't produced in house either.
Tokens would definitely be nice, though the standard cardboard punchout variety we see with a lot of these games these days kind of defeats the purpose of the switch to 3D printing. Most of those are handled overseas and have with plenty of games, been cause for delays with shipping disruptions. The plastic tokens PP sells officially would be a nice add for sure and they've included them in the past, but I'd wager those aren't produced in house either.
They did sell official tokens in the past.
Don't see why they wouldn't do it with this new version. It's the easiest to do if you 3dprint your production, and it's easy money to grab from your customers.
I'm sure PP will keep selling them at a good old premium price just like their other miniatures. Because that's how they see the value of their brand.
They're no different from GW and people trying to paint them otherwise are just fooling themselves on that regard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/22 20:05:16
