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**Amishprn86**

dan2026 wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Did a fun Votann game with 2 Fortresses and what I like. Honestly, it wasn't as much damage as I thought it was going to be. The bikes really didn't do much either. The Hearthguard and Champion was great, Beserks extremely good distraction unit after they get some melee in. I did win but it was honestly close up until T4. Neck to neck T2 and T3, end of T4 the Hearthguard and Champion was just too much.

My list was the list above, against a BT player with 2 Dreads, Gladiator Valiant, Helbrecht, 20 Crusaders, some Incursors, Eliminators, BGVs, GVs, with a Chaplain.

All proxy for now

Changes I would make, no Relic on the Forge Master, 1 unit of Warriors all Ions and a Magna for MWs output (this unit is the one in the Fortress). I would need to play a couple more times to see what else I would want to change. I did like YMYR but I think GTL will be better over all, but I love the invuls on units and extra range as well as the rapid fire range for bonus AP, it really fits well for me. But I am also thinking about Kronus, seems really good with Kahl, Champ, Beserks, and Hearthguard.

Interesting. What guns did you run on the Hearthguard?
Plasma or Volkanite?

Plasma, the idea of an always supercharge plasma without the 1 to kill you seemed really good lol. But I can see why Volkanite would be good with Judgements, especially with 3 shots each (30 shots) you can easily do 15 MW's, but bc I am YMYR it didn't feel practical, if I was playing GTL then I think I would do Volkanite.

**Twilight Pathways**

15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9

**wuestenfux**

Do we know when the codex will come out?
The earlier the better.

**Amishprn86**

Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9

LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's

**Sikil**

Amishprn86 wrote:

[...]

Beserk rush!
[...] 2x10 Beserks and 2x2 Sagitaurs, this splits your units and gives you a lot of speed with Melee punch.

The goal is to rush, charge, kill, get back into combat and fight on death. Try to multi charge if you can. The more you get into combat the more you kill. They basically fight twice with 4 attacks each as a 2D power sword or sweep (anti-horde) for 8 attack each with -3ap.

Biker Storm
3x6 Bikes, with 2 HYLas each and a Comms (gives them a 24" range to get their Kahl re-rolls aura, for 5pts its a steal), this comes out to 615pts, enough to fill out the rest of your army.

These bikes get a Pre-game move/deploy up to 12" (outside of 9" of enemy units), has ObSeC as well. Each unit at 24'' range gets 36 shots, at 12" it adds 12 more shots, all shots Str 5, 6, and 7, with AP and some at 2D. With a Kahl giving you a token, and ways to put a 2nd token on you are shooting at close range 48 shots with 19 hits auto wounds after re-rolls, and you are still getting another 20 hits through too.

Combine the Berzerk Sag rush with the Biker Storm rush, round of with some Troops, a Buff-Kâhl and Grymkin and I have a feeling that it will be a sledgehammer that will be feared.

Love the Champion model thou... Hmmm... Maybe not use/proxy the Grymkin just yet. 😇

**Amishprn86**

Sikil wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:

[...]

Beserk rush!
[...] 2x10 Beserks and 2x2 Sagitaurs, this splits your units and gives you a lot of speed with Melee punch.

The goal is to rush, charge, kill, get back into combat and fight on death. Try to multi charge if you can. The more you get into combat the more you kill. They basically fight twice with 4 attacks each as a 2D power sword or sweep (anti-horde) for 8 attack each with -3ap.

Biker Storm
3x6 Bikes, with 2 HYLas each and a Comms (gives them a 24" range to get their Kahl re-rolls aura, for 5pts its a steal), this comes out to 615pts, enough to fill out the rest of your army.

These bikes get a Pre-game move/deploy up to 12" (outside of 9" of enemy units), has ObSeC as well. Each unit at 24'' range gets 36 shots, at 12" it adds 12 more shots, all shots Str 5, 6, and 7, with AP and some at 2D. With a Kahl giving you a token, and ways to put a 2nd token on you are shooting at close range 48 shots with 19 hits auto wounds after re-rolls, and you are still getting another 20 hits through too.

Combine the Berzerk Sag rush with the Biker Storm rush, round of with some Troops, a Buff-Kâhl and Grymkin and I have a feeling that it will be a sledgehammer that will be feared.

Love the Champion model thou... Hmmm... Maybe not use/proxy the Grymkin just yet. 😇

The go to list right now is a mix of the 2 yes.

Here is 1 i saw i liked, its 2 Patrols

Uthar
Lord Grim
Forge Master
Warriors
Warriors
Beserks 1x5
Beserks 1x5
Beserks 1x5
Pioneers x6 (searchlight, Hylas's, Comms)
Pioneers x3 Hylas
Pioneers x3 Hylas
Hekaton
Hekaton
Hekaton

I've seen another list that was the same thing but no Grim and instead +5 more Beserks or Bikes. Also some are doing only 3x5 Beserks for more bikes too basically same as but its 3x6 Bikes and 3x5 Beserks with 3 Hekatons, Uthar, Forge Master, and 2 troops.

**EightFoldPath**

I'm not sure I'd swap 2 CP for the ability to take 1 less Warrior squad and save 110 points, but I can see the idea.

Also I feel the Rollbar Searchlight and 1 CP is vital for generating a single judgement token on a target that has avoided all other tokens. Especially in combination with Uthar's special 6.

Similarly prefer a cheeky Ion Beamer on the bikes for getting the MW beam strat rolling before any of the Fortresses start firing.

**Amishprn86**

EightFoldPath wrote:
I'm not sure I'd swap 2 CP for the ability to take 1 less Warrior squad and save 110 points, but I can see the idea.

Also I feel the Rollbar Searchlight and 1 CP is vital for generating a single judgement token on a target that has avoided all other tokens. Especially in combination with Uthar's special 6.

Similarly prefer a cheeky Ion Beamer on the bikes for getting the MW beam strat rolling before any of the Fortresses start firing.

I'm not going to lie, i meant to type searchlights and messed up (see my signature) will edit that lol.

Some are trying out the Ion Beams too actually. But its not worth it if you are doing Magna-rifle Hekatons, you either do al beams or no beams from what I am seeing.

**dan2026**

I'm not sure what to think on Beam weapons.
They seem highly situational. And limited with not being able to hit characters etc.

**EightFoldPath**

Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm not going to lie, i meant to type searchlights and messed up (see my signature) will edit that lol.

Some are trying out the Ion Beams too actually. But its not worth it if you are doing Magna-rifle Hekatons, you either do al beams or no beams from what I am seeing.

Haha, I quite like the Scanner as well after a bit more thought about it.

I also do prefer a mix of weaponry and I don't like how going all beams will leave you with so much AP2 D2. Although the magna-rail having only AP4 is kind of disappointing, which also tells you a lot about the state of the game.

**JNAProductions**

List I just made. Could use some advice on the Relics and Warlord Traits.

Also, a touch of math for fun.

Five Berserks, armed with Axes, and part of the Kronus Hegemony, bop just shy of six Plague Marines on the charge. With no Judgement Tokens.
Add on a single Token, for the bonus AP and slight boost to wounding, and that jumps to more than eight Plague Marines in one bout of fighting.
With full rerolls to-hit (from a stratagem, probably) and three Tokens, a mere five do enough to kill 13 Plague Marines, or five Deathguard Terminators.

Against a Knight, they do...
No Tokens-7.41 damage.
One Token-13.33 damage.
Three Tokens, Full Rerolls on Hit Rolls-30+ damage.

**Boosykes**

Wow those berserk s look strong.

**DeadliestIdiot**

A bunch of YouTube videos of channels playing small games using the Votann starter box went up today for anyone not already aware. I've encountered videos of votann vs orks, ad mech, alpha legion, eldar, and nids. I'm sure there's probably others as well.

**Sasori**

Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.

One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.

**Amishprn86**

Sasori wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.

One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.

I am going Plasma axe for a few reason;
1) Slow strength is fine with JTs
2) AP 3 is better than AP 2
3) Against -1D double the attacks is better than extra strength when we have JTs

**Bosskelot**

The thunder hammers are ap3 though.

Also Damage 3 is so important in general (because of -1 D and also lots of 3W bodies in the meta atm) and is usually very hard to really get en masse. Votaan already has plenty of ways to horde clear or kill Intercessor-tier bodies that the plasma axes don't do anything you're not already doing. Getting 15-30 Damage 3 attacks at ap3 with full re-rolls though? There is 0 contest. Hammers every time.

**EightFoldPath**

They seem close in terms of playability, it would just be a case of working out what units you are killing in melee most often and choosing the appropriate weapon.

I feel like the shooting can horde clear, tank bust and eliminate elite infantry, so I'm not quite following the idea that you specifically need to deal with elites in melee.

**Niiai**

Sasori wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.

One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.

Can I just get a compareson to them vs wulfen? A lot of people are down on wulfen (although I think they are good.) What is the big draw for the votan berserkers? The grudge tokens? That they can ride in transports?

It is honestly the biggets holdback for me for not jumping on the dwarf train. I already have 15 wulfen.

**Bosskelot**

Niiai wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.

One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.

Can I just get a compareson to them vs wulfen? A lot of people are down on wulfen (although I think they are good.) What is the big draw for the votan berserkers? The grudge tokens? That they can ride in transports?

It is honestly the biggets holdback for me for not jumping on the dwarf train. I already have 15 wulfen.

Nobody is down on Wulfen. They're widely recognized as one of the best units in the SW dex.

**Niiai**

Yeah you say that. But when the subject comes up in Discords, Facebook or forums there are always someboy coming down on them hard. Often comparing them to their pre-codex crazy rules. Your beef is not with me, your beef is with them. Or I suppose your beef is with me is your claim is that there are in fact not people who say that. In witch case I suppose we do have a beef, but this is not the hill I am going to merpahorically die on.

Prime directive time: Do not play a worse version of your concept army. If anybody builds a list around or with a high consentration of berserkers, what do they offer that wulfen does not do? My biggest sticking point is that wulfen are fast ish (8") and the berserkers are not.

**tneva82**

Just because somebody says something doesn' mean it so. What does majorito say?

Also transport is big and wolfen lack of core hurts. Autowoundp and full reroll to hit is big

**Niiai**

The majorito is undecided.

Wulfen has speed, invulnerable save, and the super doctrine build in.

How exspensive is it for 5 berserker in a transport? I suppose it also needs to compare to five berserkers in the land fortress as well, since it is rather good.

**Amishprn86**

Bosskelot wrote:
The thunder hammers are ap3 though.

Also Damage 3 is so important in general (because of -1 D and also lots of 3W bodies in the meta atm) and is usually very hard to really get en masse. Votaan already has plenty of ways to horde clear or kill Intercessor-tier bodies that the plasma axes don't do anything you're not already doing. Getting 15-30 Damage 3 attacks at ap3 with full re-rolls though? There is 0 contest. Hammers every time.

Oh I got it mixed up with the gauntlet, my bad lol, Yeah I can understand wanting the hammers, not the Gauntlet. I was thinking the Hammer was the 1 in 5 upgrade for some reason.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiai wrote:
The majorito is undecided.

Wulfen has speed, invulnerable save, and the super doctrine build in.

How exspensive is it for 5 berserker in a transport? I suppose it also needs to compare to five berserkers in the land fortress as well, since it is rather good.

5 Beserks base are 110pts, the Sag is 110 and HLF 230, you can upgrade all of them a little. I've ben doing 2x5 Beserks and 2 HLF

Add: I want to like 3x10 Beserks with 6 Sagitaurs (its like 1300pts or something lol), but that requires an Outrider and Patrol bc the bikes are too important. I just love the idea of rushing up 6 T8 Razorbacks++ unloading Repentia++ (++ as in just better units).

**JNAProductions**

I dunno if the D3 is worth it-at least, in Kronus.

Outside Kronus, I definitely see the value, but inside... Again, 5 Berserks can do 30+ damage to a Knight, as long as it's been judged and you spend 1 CP on rerolls.

Edit: I am, it should be noted, doing this purely theoretically. I've not played the Dex yet-so I could be very wrong!

**Amishprn86**

JNAProductions wrote:
I dunno if the D3 is worth it-at least, in Kronus.

Outside Kronus, I definitely see the value, but inside... Again, 5 Berserks can do 30+ damage to a Knight, as long as it's been judged and you spend 1 CP on rerolls.

Edit: I am, it should be noted, doing this purely theoretically. I've not played the Dex yet-so I could be very wrong!

Yeah with Hammers looking at the math, 4+ to hit but you can get full re-rolls, 3 JTs, +1 to hit. 5 of them no league with re-roll hits and 3 JT, is 15 attacks, 3+ with re-rolls just looking for 4+ to hit will be 11.25 wounds, 5+ save 9.3 failed saves (9) for 27 wounds. If you take anymore than 5, or give them +1 to hit, etc... you are adding 3-6 more damage. I can see Beserks losing Core or going up in points.

**JNAProductions**

Oh, I meant Berserks with axes, in Kronus.

They hit, wound, and save the same with either profile, so it's either 20 attacks D2 or 40 D1. I'll use the D1 profile for this.

40 attacks
20 hits on a 4+, 20 rerolls for 10 more 4+ and 20/6 or 10/3 3s to hit.
10/9 wounds from the 3s to-hit, plus 30 autowounds
AP-4, so can't pass saves, for a total of 31.11 damage to a Knight.

**Bosskelot**

With Berzerks, like much of the codex, there are so many overlapping buffs and outside synergies that it would take a lot to really reign them in. Just upping their points slightly, changing Ymyr to be a 6++ and increasing the cost of Sags could ("could" being the operative word) be enough to really reduce their effectiveness down... but even then you're still looking at a unit that can get 1cp re-roll hits and autowounding on 4's that also fights on death.

**Amishprn86**

Bosskelot wrote:
With Berzerks, like much of the codex, there are so many overlapping buffs and outside synergies that it would take a lot to really reign them in. Just upping their points slightly, changing Ymyr to be a 6++ and increasing the cost of Sags could ("could" being the operative word) be enough to really reduce their effectiveness down... but even then you're still looking at a unit that can get 1cp re-roll hits and autowounding on 4's that also fights on death.

Sags honestly seem the more balanced unit in the book, its 3 units of Beserks in HLFs thats a problem.

**stratigo**

Bosskelot wrote:
With Berzerks, like much of the codex, there are so many overlapping buffs and outside synergies that it would take a lot to really reign them in. Just upping their points slightly, changing Ymyr to be a 6++ and increasing the cost of Sags could ("could" being the operative word) be enough to really reduce their effectiveness down... but even then you're still looking at a unit that can get 1cp re-roll hits and autowounding on 4's that also fights on death.

GW has been perfectly happy taking strats out bag and shooting them, and even wide sweeping rules changes

And luckily squats data sheets are pretty solid so that this won’t take the army out back and shoot it along with whatever strat they nerf

**Amishprn86**

Looking at 1k event with only models that are out for now (event is Nov 17 so I might be able to get the new models but I need these ready just in case). It sucks its only 5 units out but lets try to make the most of them

GTL
Uthar WLTs
Champion Relic hammer
Warriors x10, Magna, L7 missile, Medi
Warriors x10, Magna, L7 missile, Medi
Warriors x10, Magna, L7 missile, Medi
Warriors x10, Medi
Pioneers x3, Gun, Searchlight
Pioneers x3, Gun, Searchlight

Optional Uthar replaced my High Kahl as YMYR or Urani