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Hello

I would really like to use Empires Demigryph Knights in 6th edition battles, but those can only be found in the 8th edition army book.
What kind of rules would be fair to use with 6th edition Empire armies?

I have the 6th and 8th edition Empire army books, but haven't played a game of Fantasy Battles, so I have no idea.

Just take the stats, rules and point cost from 8th edition army book?

They would be very powerful in 6th edition without any changes. Speaking generally, units in that edition had only one attack each (even elites) and when this started to increase in later 6th and through 7th the system cracked.

I would bring them down to 1 attack each from both animal and rider and keep the rest unchanged. They'll serve a great role as mobile resilience and still pack punch.

6th had Ogre Mercenary rules IIRC. Did the FW Rhinox cav get 6th rules? That could work.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
This looks right. They describe the Bull Rhinox upgrade as a Large Target and Steam Tank sized so I'd say don't allow that upgrade for the Demigryphs.

That would be a good compromise. The only other possibility is to base them off of comparable units. Cold One Knights, perhaps?

Thanks already for these answers.

My friend got me to try Fantasy 6th edition. Only played 40k before. I'm painting first Empire troops at the moment.

They are the most cool looking unit in my eyes so I would really like to paint and field them. But since I have no experience playing 6th or 8th edition I have no idea what kind of rules would be somewhat fair for those.

Take a look at the attached rules of Demigryph Knights (taken from the Warhammer CE rule set).
Should be fine for 6th ed too, just ignore the Unimpeded and Heavy Cavalry special rules and replace the banner options with the banners of the 6th ed army book.
The "N" in 200p + Nx30p in the point cost refers to the number of Demigryph Knights units in your army, i.e. if you field two units of 3, each would cost 260p (200p + 2x30p).

Seelenhaendler wrote:
Take a look at the attached rules of Demigryph Knights (taken from the Warhammer CE rule set).
Should be fine for 6th ed too, just ignore the Unimpeded and Heavy Cavalry special rules and replace the banner options with the banners of the 6th ed army book.
The "N" in 200p + Nx30p in the point cost refers to the number of Demigryph Knights units in your army, i.e. if you field two units of 3, each would cost 260p (200p + 2x30p).

No full plate armour for them it would appear. Interesting point calculating system also. If you have 3 knights, it would cost 86 pts / knight. I obviously don't really have a perspective if that is high or low, but a normal Empire knight is 23 pts.


I made a quick points comparison between Empire 6th and 8th edition army books:

6th edition 8th edition
Knightly Orders 23 pts 22 pts
Pistoliers 19 pts 18 pts
Halberdier 6 pts 6 pts
Swordmen 7 pts 7 pts
Greatswords 12 pts 11 pts

In 8th edition armybook Demigryph Knights are 58 pts. Were monsters like that too powerful in 8th edition so that their points should be way bigger to be fair?

Trickster12 wrote:

Seelenhaendler wrote:
Take a look at the attached rules of Demigryph Knights (taken from the Warhammer CE rule set).
Should be fine for 6th ed too, just ignore the Unimpeded and Heavy Cavalry special rules and replace the banner options with the banners of the 6th ed army book.
The "N" in 200p + Nx30p in the point cost refers to the number of Demigryph Knights units in your army, i.e. if you field two units of 3, each would cost 260p (200p + 2x30p).

No full plate armour for them it would appear. Interesting point calculating system also. If you have 3 knights, it would cost 86 pts / knight. I obviously don't really have a perspective if that is high or low, but a normal Empire knight is 23 pts.


I made a quick points comparison between Empire 6th and 8th edition army books:

6th edition 8th edition
Knightly Orders 23 pts 22 pts
Pistoliers 19 pts 18 pts
Halberdier 6 pts 6 pts
Swordmen 7 pts 7 pts
Greatswords 12 pts 11 pts

In 8th edition armybook Demigryph Knights are 58 pts. Were monsters like that too powerful in 8th edition so that their points should be way bigger to be fair?

Demigryphs were a new unit GW wanted to push into the market so it was blatantly underpriced for what it did on the battlefield. If you check army lists of 8th edition, Demigryphs were almost a "must-have" for Empire players, because they were so obviously overpowered it hurts.

A bit of a cheaper price (although not THAT cheap!) for playing them in 8th compared to 6th on the other hand is only fair, as they changed the way close combat worked a lot during 8th edition.
First, you got to strike first when you charged in all editions except for 8th. Second, the attack range was randomized (you had to roll dice to determine how far your charge would go in 8th). Third, losses you inflicted were less important, as units with remaining models in their back ranks were allowed to "step up" and keep attacking as if they hadn't suffered losses. Fourth, you were allowed to make supporting attacks from an additional rank. Aand if you outnumbered your enemy (as infantry most of the time does against cavalry), you didn't modify your leadership for the break test. All in all a big downgrade compared to 6th for cavalry.

So if you would port the unit with the point costs from 8th, that had all these downsides kind of included, your enemy would get wrecked very easily against these knights. Only "upgrade" for Demigryphs was that they got to make a auto-hit-stomp attack at the end of the combat.
They have to be more expensive if used in 6th.

I hope this helps!

You could simply count them as 2 regular knights each?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You could simply count them as 2 regular knights each?

That is very true. I thought about this also and it is a very viable option.

 Moscha wrote:

Trickster12 wrote:

Seelenhaendler wrote:
Take a look at the attached rules of Demigryph Knights (taken from the Warhammer CE rule set).
Should be fine for 6th ed too, just ignore the Unimpeded and Heavy Cavalry special rules and replace the banner options with the banners of the 6th ed army book.
The "N" in 200p + Nx30p in the point cost refers to the number of Demigryph Knights units in your army, i.e. if you field two units of 3, each would cost 260p (200p + 2x30p).

No full plate armour for them it would appear. Interesting point calculating system also. If you have 3 knights, it would cost 86 pts / knight. I obviously don't really have a perspective if that is high or low, but a normal Empire knight is 23 pts.


I made a quick points comparison between Empire 6th and 8th edition army books:

6th edition 8th edition
Knightly Orders 23 pts 22 pts
Pistoliers 19 pts 18 pts
Halberdier 6 pts 6 pts
Swordmen 7 pts 7 pts
Greatswords 12 pts 11 pts

In 8th edition armybook Demigryph Knights are 58 pts. Were monsters like that too powerful in 8th edition so that their points should be way bigger to be fair?

Demigryphs were a new unit GW wanted to push into the market so it was blatantly underpriced for what it did on the battlefield. If you check army lists of 8th edition, Demigryphs were almost a "must-have" for Empire players, because they were so obviously overpowered it hurts.

A bit of a cheaper price (although not THAT cheap!) for playing them in 8th compared to 6th on the other hand is only fair, as they changed the way close combat worked a lot during 8th edition.
First, you got to strike first when you charged in all editions except for 8th. Second, the attack range was randomized (you had to roll dice to determine how far your charge would go in 8th). Third, losses you inflicted were less important, as units with remaining models in their back ranks were allowed to "step up" and keep attacking as if they hadn't suffered losses. Fourth, you were allowed to make supporting attacks from an additional rank. Aand if you outnumbered your enemy (as infantry most of the time does against cavalry), you didn't modify your leadership for the break test. All in all a big downgrade compared to 6th for cavalry.

So if you would port the unit with the point costs from 8th, that had all these downsides kind of included, your enemy would get wrecked very easily against these knights. Only "upgrade" for Demigryphs was that they got to make a auto-hit-stomp attack at the end of the combat.
They have to be more expensive if used in 6th.

I hope this helps!

Thank you very much for this kind of in depth answer! .