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Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany



Hi everybody,

I had written a wall of text fanboying and explaining Warhammer CE, but due to being too dumb to keep the right tabs open, I mistakenly deleted it all.
So now in short:

For all fans of Warhammer Fantasy before 8th edition crap rules, AoS and end times,
someone has been rebuilding Warhammer as it always should have been.
The link below leads to a downloadable pdf file, which is fully in English. I hope this works.



http://www.weiss-blaue-strategen.de/index.php?attachment/5967-warhammerce-lrb-v1-04-pdf/

Check it out! It is of course not as popular as 9th age, but way better

In short:
- 7th edition as basis - but many flaws of it removed, rules streamlined to being clear and meaningful
- New unit types (Heavy cavalry, light infantry) adding to tactical gameplay,
- fair point costs,
- an important but not overly dominant magic phase
- a great army builder tool in english http://armycreator.de/
- possibility to play units not been available since 5th ed (reiksguard,...) til 8th edition new units (Phoenix, Arachnarok spider...)






   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




Up north


Not to rain on your parade, but I think 8th. ed. was a far stronger ruleset than 6th or 7th.
I truly embraces many of the new rules. Esp. the lack of guess ranges and the random charge ranges. But also how infantry came into it's own.

8th. just needed four or five spells toned down, a few odd rules and there, perphaps increase flanking a little bit and give cavalry a boost. And you have a solid ruleset. Perhaps make the horde rule require less models to be effective to avoid these massive blocks.

If I were to re-write 8th. I would take all of the above and change one vital thing and that is to steal from KoW how a unit is defined not by individual models but by the size of a template. Having these massive blocks is not really great for the game nor for the players who have to paint and assemble 300+ goblins..

Other than that 8th. ed. were the best ed. of Warhammer Fantasy IMHO
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran






Welcome to dakka,

It's nice to see some excitement for the old world here, and as much as I appreciate your efforts in making a home made rules set. I'll have to agree with the above poster. I thought 8th ed. Was the best edition of fantasy, far superior to 7th.

AoS does suck balls though.

Square Bases for Life! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Welcome to dakka,

It's nice to see some excitement for the old world here, and as much as I appreciate your efforts in making a home made rules set. I'll have to agree with the above poster. I thought 8th ed. Was the best edition of fantasy, far superior to 7th.

AoS does suck balls though.


Both had there strengths and weaknesses. Artillery could be too brutal in 8th but relied on a persons ability to guess ranges in earlier editions and so on. 7th had silly shuffling mechanics to get the charge (and not be charged) whereas 8th could be a bit too random.

7th was also tarnished by some really poor design decisions for certain armies.

Still any game in the Old World is better than nothing!

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran






Indeed, 8th was far from perfect.

Things I disliked:
- Skirmisher rules
- Laser guided cannons
- Uber spells
- Magic resistance

The thing that 8th edition nailed for me personally was just the sheer scale of it. It finally felt like a huge massive battle between you and your opponent. None of this small unit, skirmish gak. Just massive fething battles. Thats what I've always wanted, and thats what I got. And that is inevitably one of the reasons why it failed and was canned.

Essentially all the reasons why I enjoyed 8th are the reasons why it failed and strangely, most often the things complained about by people who don't like 8th.

Square Bases for Life! 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

Wow, so much feedback in such little time!

Thank you guys!

I will try to comment on all of your replies, one by one.
Not in boring, pedantic way I hope^^

Personal opinions, preferences on how situations are dealt with in the rules are varying strongly, so I'd say someone who got along great with 8th will surely have a harder time finding the benefits of CE over 9th/8th Ed., but from personal experience I can say that even this did happen (not in either case though ) than a player like me who played most games during 6th edition / start of 7th.

Nevertheless, I really encourage you try it out at least once or twice this ruleset. The rules are best balanced for a 2000 P game, and will do well without any modification from 1500 to maybe 2500 (when playing a tournament).

For larger or smaller games, I would recommend to scale the amount of magic/dispel dice generation and lord selections.

So, go ahead, read the basic rules, check your armies special rules in the respective section, start the armycreator, choose your army of choice, build a 2000 P fun list, and start playing. It's sooo worth it.
   
Made in gb
Deva Functionary





 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Indeed, 8th was far from perfect.

Things I disliked:
- Skirmisher rules
- Laser guided cannons
- Uber spells
- Magic resistance


Just curious, what didn't you like about the skirmisher rules and magic resistance? Both seemed pretty reasonable to me.
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran






The skirmisher rules were a little weird. They had a kind of strange pseudo ranked formation, no longer had 360 degree shooting, didn't have the double time rule anymore and had to rank themselves to the enemy rather than create a combat line when being charged which reduced their effectiveness as a re-director. Thats from memory, I have the rulebook locked up somewhere. So if any of that is inaccurate, I apologize. I prefer the 6th/7th ed. skirmisher rules.

The Magic resistance thing I didn't like because many of the large spells didn't even let you take a ward save against them, so magic resistance didn't even have any effect. It also benefitted units with ward saves a lot more than other units which I found strange. Personally I would have liked to see Magic Resistance as a bonus to dispel attempts when a spell is targeting a specific unit. So if you targeted a unit with fireball for example and rolled a 12 to cast, I attempt to dispel and roll an 11 but my unit has magic resistance (2), I add 2 to the dispel value which would equal 13 and be able to stop it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 21:18:59


Square Bases for Life! 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

 Draccan wrote:

Not to rain on your parade, but I think 8th. ed. was a far stronger ruleset than 6th or 7th.
I truly embraces many of the new rules. Esp. the lack of guess ranges and the random charge ranges. But also how infantry came into it's own.


Well, I would never go so far to say I didn't have any fun with games in 8th, no. It is good for gaming with friends, when everybody agrees not to set up the biggest filth, or playing a fun scenario...
But this you can say for any edition. The new rules in some way "fixed" things, like having to guess ranges, and yes, infantry got a well deserved "upgrade" in means of playability.
At the same time these new rules spoiled a lot. I always liked guessing ranges, really. It was good laugh when you or your opponent went-all wrong with that. Depends on taste if one needs that.
But the upgrade of infantry was like fixing a problem (too high damage output of certain units) with creating a new one (making some of the cheapest units the most reliable ones of the game and next to unbreakable, e.g. skaven slaves)
Along with that, to really profit from this rule you had to massively size-up your units. Leading to... less flexible in movement, more static and of course very expensive (in hard currency, not only point costs ) units,



8th. just needed four or five spells toned down, a few odd rules and there, perphaps increase flanking a little bit and give cavalry a boost. And you have a solid ruleset. Perhaps make the horde rule require less models to be effective to avoid these massive blocks.

With more balanced point costs in the army books, yes, maybe. But that would never have happened since GW had no interest in creating a balanced game.

If I were to re-write 8th. I would take all of the above and change one vital thing and that is to steal from KoW how a unit is defined not by individual models but by the size of a template. Having these massive blocks is not really great for the game nor for the players who have to paint and assemble 300+ goblins..

Other than that 8th. ed. were the best ed. of Warhammer Fantasy IMHO

I think that would be a step in the right direction, KoW is interesting, it just lacks the fancy fancy character building stuff and that's why I prefer WHF over it.

   
Made in us
Skillful Swordmaster





West Lafayette, IN

I'll look later, but it'll have to wow me to get me to consider it over 6th.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

 Just Tony wrote:
I'll look later, but it'll have to wow me to get me to consider it over 6th.



6th was a really good ruleset to me, especially with all the additional stuff in it like siege rules, skirmisher rules...

Compared to 6th/7th (almost the same if I remember, except for some psychology rules, rank bonus requirements, right? )

main improvements from my POV are:

- No "core tax" - set up whatever you like. Core infantry units are the cheapest and most point effective units in the game.
- Point costs per model scaling down with increasing unit size - Makes larger units still playable, MSU concepts are less effective this way.
- Point costs of equipment reflects the real value for a hero/lord fighter/wizard. Way more fair - a 5+ ward save for a hero with T4 W2 is less valuable than the same for a lord with T5 and W3.
- You buy the spells instead of dicing - you know how it sucked if you chose a lore and diced all the wrong spells not fitting for your army. That's why there was a VERY strong tendency that always the same lores were chosen (Heaven in 6th, because it had 5 good spells so you couldn't go wrong). Spells vary in point costs as well. Basic wizard is very cheap, all depends on your selection.
- NxP-Factor: Some units are getting more expensive, the more of them you are fielding. => Penalty for very one-sided army concepts. e.g. a single cannon costs 60+ 1x20 =80 Points, 2 cannons cost 60+2x20 = 100 points each, 3 cannons cost 60+3x20 =120 Points each and so on.
- Streamlining of defining if an attack was successful. You measure from the mid of your front rank to the closest point of the enemy unit. If you're movement rate sufficces, the charge is successful. One wheel like in every edition only, and terrain has to be taken in consideration of course.
- difficult terrain: Halves movement, but marching is allowed.
-new unit types: Heavy cavalry (cavalry with armor save 2+) cannot march, routs only 2D6 instead of 3D6 => one of the biggest problems in 6th/7th was fast, hard hitting heavy cavalry. Problem solved. Light infantry - new unit type, allows moving like light cavalry, no movement penalties in difficult terrain, no rank bonus fires from 2 ranks. => adds a lot of great tactical elements. I love my Dark elves corsairs with repeater hand crossbow.
-Army lists on a very equal power level

These are in short some of the obvious advantages.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 08:18:59


 
   
Made in us
Skillful Swordmaster





West Lafayette, IN

And some of them right off the bat I'm not on board with. In my mind the Core tax was necessary, back when 5th Edition was going on you'd see armies that under every edition since would have been nothing but Specials and Rares. Without the Core tax you would have seen stuff like an entire army of Black Knights, or Greatswords, or insert whatever Special or Rare wasn't 0-1.


Okay, since I still haven't had time to read anything but what you responded with: is 0-1 still a thing in CE?

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

Believe me, you will use some core units anyway because finally they ARE playable and useful no matter what the enemy is fielding. Good gods, I won a local tournament with my dark elves, in my 2000 P list were among others 21 Spearmen, 10 Repeater Crossbowmen, 5 Black Riders, 5 Harpies. In the original version I even had 20 Corsairs on top of that (+50% core units!) but I exchanged them for 13 Executioners, to be fair.
And my Orc&Goblin list contains 30 Common Goblins with Spears. I mean, hey, honestly, did ever somebody field normal stinking Goblins in a competitive play? I don't think so.
So yes, there is the possibility to field no core units in the game, but you can use e.g a limitation like in 8th edition if you like. the only official limitation is 2000 p - one lord maximum


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and i totally forgot my light infantry core unit corsairs with repeater hand crossbow in the abovementioned list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/22 08:25:54


 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

0-1 like only one unit of black orks? No, but feel free to do so
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Indeed, 8th was far from perfect.

Things I disliked:
- Skirmisher rules
- Laser guided cannons
- Uber spells
- Magic resistance

The thing that 8th edition nailed for me personally was just the sheer scale of it. It finally felt like a huge massive battle between you and your opponent. None of this small unit, skirmish gak. Just massive fething battles. Thats what I've always wanted, and thats what I got. And that is inevitably one of the reasons why it failed and was canned.

Essentially all the reasons why I enjoyed 8th are the reasons why it failed and strangely, most often the things complained about by people who don't like 8th.

I totally agree with your dislikes. And to some extend, I also liked the big scale in terms of aesthetics. 12 Models just don't feel like a real unit, while 25 or 40 do. But I never thought 100 Night Goblins as a horde should be necessary to play them effectively. Nope. Not at all, thank you.

We did big battles between Christmas and new year for a long series of years, with up to 15000 Points per side one time (that was beginning of 7th, I remember it was new you needed 5 models to form a rank) and I reallly loved that! big scale! 3 days playing, sleeping beside the models on the floor. But in 8th, we did that once and were utterly disappointed. It took half a day to set up the figures, and in round 2 almost half of an army was eradicated by magic. That was the last time we played a big match unfortunately.
But I got another player who just finished his Azhag model, and I only recently finished Gorbad. And we'll have a 4000P match of 2 legendary boyz showin off der skills against each other^^
   
Made in fr
Inspiring Icon Bearer




Moscha wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Indeed, 8th was far from perfect.

Things I disliked:
- Skirmisher rules
- Laser guided cannons
- Uber spells
- Magic resistance

The thing that 8th edition nailed for me personally was just the sheer scale of it. It finally felt like a huge massive battle between you and your opponent. None of this small unit, skirmish gak. Just massive fething battles. Thats what I've always wanted, and thats what I got. And that is inevitably one of the reasons why it failed and was canned.

Essentially all the reasons why I enjoyed 8th are the reasons why it failed and strangely, most often the things complained about by people who don't like 8th.

I totally agree with your dislikes. And to some extend, I also liked the big scale in terms of aesthetics. 12 Models just don't feel like a real unit, while 25 or 40 do. But I never thought 100 Night Goblins as a horde should be necessary to play them effectively. Nope. Not at all, thank you.

We did big battles between Christmas and new year for a long series of years, with up to 15000 Points per side one time (that was beginning of 7th, I remember it was new you needed 5 models to form a rank) and I reallly loved that! big scale! 3 days playing, sleeping beside the models on the floor. But in 8th, we did that once and were utterly disappointed. It took half a day to set up the figures, and in round 2 almost half of an army was eradicated by magic. That was the last time we played a big match unfortunately.


Then you surely had really bad luck.

We do our Christmas big game (usually it was a 3v3v3 on a big table made by joining 3 or 4) and it generally took us all day to play 4-5 turns.... by which time magic had barely made a dent. Not with 15K points on each side by any measure unless you had some weird panic domino effect. Even assuming that you will cast a 6th spell every turn and that its going to kill 500 points per cast, which are some massive ifs (dispelling, not being in range, bad winds of magic roll, unsuitable targets -try casting purple sun on elves-, etc.) you're looking at 3K points on your typical 6-turn game.

Magic was nasty at 2-3K when a single purple sun could delete your 1K gutstar, but in epic games I always found massed cannon shot to be the worst offenders (because you always take big centerpiece models to a big game).

I was happy enough with 8th not to want to look back, but appreciate the effort you've put into it.

   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

jouso wrote:
Moscha wrote:
 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Indeed, 8th was far from perfect.

Things I disliked:
- Skirmisher rules
- Laser guided cannons
- Uber spells
- Magic resistance

The thing that 8th edition nailed for me personally was just the sheer scale of it. It finally felt like a huge massive battle between you and your opponent. None of this small unit, skirmish gak. Just massive fething battles. Thats what I've always wanted, and thats what I got. And that is inevitably one of the reasons why it failed and was canned.

Essentially all the reasons why I enjoyed 8th are the reasons why it failed and strangely, most often the things complained about by people who don't like 8th.

I totally agree with your dislikes. And to some extend, I also liked the big scale in terms of aesthetics. 12 Models just don't feel like a real unit, while 25 or 40 do. But I never thought 100 Night Goblins as a horde should be necessary to play them effectively. Nope. Not at all, thank you.

We did big battles between Christmas and new year for a long series of years, with up to 15000 Points per side one time (that was beginning of 7th, I remember it was new you needed 5 models to form a rank) and I reallly loved that! big scale! 3 days playing, sleeping beside the models on the floor. But in 8th, we did that once and were utterly disappointed. It took half a day to set up the figures, and in round 2 almost half of an army was eradicated by magic. That was the last time we played a big match unfortunately.


Then you surely had really bad luck.

We do our Christmas big game (usually it was a 3v3v3 on a big table made by joining 3 or 4) and it generally took us all day to play 4-5 turns.... by which time magic had barely made a dent. Not with 15K points on each side by any measure unless you had some weird panic domino effect. Even assuming that you will cast a 6th spell every turn and that its going to kill 500 points per cast, which are some massive ifs (dispelling, not being in range, bad winds of magic roll, unsuitable targets -try casting purple sun on elves-, etc.) you're looking at 3K points on your typical 6-turn game.

Magic was nasty at 2-3K when a single purple sun could delete your 1K gutstar, but in epic games I always found massed cannon shot to be the worst offenders (because you always take big centerpiece models to a big game).

I was happy enough with 8th not to want to look back, but appreciate the effort you've put into it.



Yeah bad luck was indeed included, but that shouldn't ruin a whole game no matter what scale. That specific battle wasn't 15000 points each side, it was "just" 8000 points. And the biggest share of havoc was wreaked by exactly the spell you mentioned

Oh, and before I forget: It is not a ruleset I invented, I just found it on the inet some years ago and I became a bit engaged in it by translating some army lists into German etc., to help spread it a little more.
I think you should give it a try, as I think the 7th ed. reference seemingly is not too helpful, as somehow it is misinterpreted in "it's totally backward and just some refurbished old version). It is not, it is just the point where it started off, even a little of 8th can be found too (like spell categories, no guess ranges for artillery, some weapon rules).

GW had done the same, bringing back things from older editions. E.G. in 8th, they went away from rules of 6th/7th edition and returned to mechanics of 5th edi (percentage in army selection rather than slots, for example).


   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

Anyone tried it so far?

We tend to play with some regulations in army selection.

For our club tournament, we had the following:
2000 Points
Up to 500 Points Lord
Lord+Hero combined less than 1000
Core minimum 500 points
max 3 same elite
max 2 same rare.

I had 3 fantastic games against Orks & Goblins (with a Boar rider breaker, some Orc Grunts, Night Goblins, Chariots and Spear Chukkas), Chaos Warriors (mainly Tzeentch, with a tzeentch lord lvl4, 2 units of normal warriors, 1 unit of Chosen, chariot) and Wood Elves (Archers, Treeman, Scouts, Outriders, Dryads, War Dancers).
If you like I can post a short bat rep, or post some of the lists used in the tournament.

   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

Part 2 in our tournament series took place last weekend. I was fielding my dark elves once again, but I tried to build a distinctively different list than last time.
I wanted to play some witch elves and the cauldron of blood, along with an assassin.
My core units remained the same, I played some 20 Spearmen, 10 repeater crossbow archers, 5 harpies and the 20 corsairs with repeater handgun. In addition I fielded a medusa and 2 bolt throwers. I had a level 2 sorceress, a army standard bearer with the hydra banner on foot, and an assassin.
I ended up on rank 10. I was only able to get two draws against empire and dwarves, while the demons of chaos tore me apart badly. I am still quite happy as I consider all of the lists I played against to be quite bad matchups.

The empire list was a very fast one, with 3 units of white wolves, 2 units regular knights, pistoliers,outriders, and the luminark. A general on pegasus, 2 additional heroes on pegasus and a wizard of light completed the blitzkrieg list.

I used refused flank tactics and cornered as much as possible. I slowed down the approach of his troops with my march blocking medusa and the corsairs. I lost these, the harpies and the xbows. He lost some white wolves, the luminark, some pistoliers and parts of other units. Terrible game to play.

The game agains dwarves was tough.
I cursed the guy who set up the tables, giving the dwarf the abilidy to place his artillery and gun line on a 2-level hill in the center. It consisted of 2 units of thunderers, 1 uit of quarellers, a cannon and an organ gun.

In addition to these units, he fielded a large units of iron breakers with king on shield and a runesmith, and a large unit of longbeards with a battle standard bearer. A master engineer helped to fortify the gun line even further.
After he blew up his organ gun in round 2, I had the chance to attack his master engineer with my harpies. In round 3, my remaining dark rider attacked his cannon and took it out. These 2 units together overan into a unit of musketeers and crushed these too. My medusa used its gaze to sniper a wound out of his army standard bearer.
I tried to reach his lines via left flank, where I amassed both witch elves units along with spearsmen, xbows and the cauldron. To no avail. He had a banner that allowed him to double his movement, and his ironbereakers fended off all of my feeble S3 attacks with their 2+ward save, even though I had +1 to wound and hatred with my witch elves. The lord smashed elves, and the iron breakers gave the passive bonus. What a desaster. Not even 2 flank attacks could faze them.
I was quite happy with the draw^^.

The game against demons was...ouch. I made a fatal mistake while placing the units.
He had a nasty unit of plaguebearers, some horrors, 3 units of khorne hounds and 2 slaanesh beasts. The horrors and his spellcasters eradicated all of my archers in turn one, and his hounds finished off one of my bolt throwers in round 2. I was outmanouvered by the fast units and was always forced to react on them, so I couldn't face the real threat approaching in form of the plaguebearers with 2 mighty hero characters. I a desperate attempt I charged the unit with my spearmen (including assassin) and the caudlron, but my assassin was unable to kill his general (by luckily succeeding in a 6+regeneration throw, so the unit kept regeneration and a lot of my cauldrons'attacks didn't hit.

Skaven won the tournament.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 16:27:31


 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




7th edition was the edition that drove me out for a while. So a game based on 7th edition wouldn't get much traction from me.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

7th Edition basic rules (which were only slightly different than 6th edition) or 7th edition armybooks?

I bet the latter. As this is totally not an issue with Warhammer CE, maybe you should give it a chance.

At the moment the Living Rulebook Version 1.05 is being developed. Meaning a fully playable army list for Dogs of War and Araby will be added.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Excerpt from Side one, what CE is all about:
Warhammer Fantasy Battle (WFB) is a popular gaming system with a long
history that apart from casual play allows players to compete in
tournaments. About every 5-6 years a new edition was released that tried to
refine and improve the game, furthermore every other edition tried to shake
things up a bit more to keep the game fresh and interesting. Even though the
rule set was constantly enhanced, the overall balance of the game failed to
exceed mediocrity, which was a result of the army books that had a major
impact on game balance. The problem with the army books was the way
they were released as well as that they were not written in a consistent
manner. This resulted in army lists of varying power level with sometimes
glaring issues, that won’t got addressed until a rewrite of the book was on
the table, which usually takes 4-5 years. By looking at the time scales, it
was obvious that a balanced game was not feasible in this manner.

The vision of the Warhammer CE project is to create a tight rule set that
allows for tactical, challenging, competitive play of WFB. This will include
a revision of all the army lists, which are the core of most problems that are
game breaking and cause the most grievance. To reflect the feel of
Warhammer battles on the tabletop, armies that are built around a core of
infantry with support from other units will be the most effective army builds
point for point. In this way restrictions for army lists shouldn’t be necessary
for the most part and would give players more freedom in list building if
they are willing to take the hit in competitiveness.
In the end, games should be won by the tactics used on the tabletop, not by
the list brought to the game.

GOLDEN RULES
The following Golden Rules are the foundation upon which the rule set will
be based. They should act as a guideline to ensure balance and are virtually
unbreakable.

1. What you pay for is what you get

The game uses a points system for a reason. So if you pay for something, it
should be worth the price. On the other hand, if something is powerful it has
to be priced accordingly.

2. Mortality

Everything in the game has to have a weakness that can be exploited, so that
a balanced army has a reasonable chance to get rid of it over the course of a
normal game if it chooses to invest a reasonable amount of resources to
achieve it.

3. Moderate effects

All effects should have a reasonable effect on the game, taking point costs
and ease of use into account. There should be virtually no effects that
single-handedly are game changing, whatever their cost or drawbacks may
be. Also, highly situational effects should be avoided as they are impossible
to balance in an adequate way. The goal is to tone down the impact of luck as much as possible.

4. Balance over fluff

While the game should reflect the vision and feel of the Warhammer world,
game balance has top priority.

5. The factor of luck

There will always be luck in a game of dice and while there are a lot of
ways to minimize the impact of a lucky roll, the way some fundamental
game mechanics work in Warhammer (especially Leadership tests), there
will always be times when a single roll will decide the game. What can be
done though is to give the player as much control as possible on when and
where those rolls happen and give him tactical options to stack the
probabilities in his favour.

6. Lean, definitive rules

Everything has to be as clear as possible. Get rid of unnecessary rules and
make the ones left count. Although there might be optional rules, there has
to be always a definitive way to do things that takes precedence.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/15 15:30:12


 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




So one day I got super burned out on whfb and quit for a while. This was in 7th edition, right around when the demon codex was destroying the game.

The main reason that I was burned out was that I had been tournament power gaming for about a decade, and a few things I really started to hate began to creep up:

1) all of my games were basically the same. I played 2-3x a week every week every month every year. All of my games felt the same. A lot of that was due to static charge distances. There wasn't a lot of variation in my games, practice wise, or at tournaments, or even the grand tournaments.
I dislike overly deterministic systems that minimize RNG. I don't like excessive RNG either, but making the system overly deterministic where dice luck is minimized makes the game very stale and static and plays the same over and over again. Which burns me out. And is a big no for me.

2) static charges enforced what I called the "dance". I'm big on immersion. So silly things that wouldn't really happen in a battle turn me off.

The "Dance" was basically getting short of charge range, then moving laterally while your opponent did the same until one of you misstepped and got too close and then you charged them. It looked like a side ways shuffle dance for 2 or 3 turns.

A real battle in my mind's eye is two enemy forces hurtling at each other, not dancing around waiting for one to get an 1/8" of charge.

3) because of #2, everyone stopped taking infantry except for a few cases such as raising dead, dwarves (that had no cav), and demons. It was cav-hammer. Every army I faced for the most part was a checkerboard of MSU cav units.

Totally not acceptable to me.

4) very few monsters taken.

5) the slot system started taking a toll on me. I want to see armies and armies have core in it, but the slot system let people min/max by taking things like 3 units of dire wolves and the rest being elite.

Was also a thing in 6th but not to the extent it got to in 7th.

All of this led to me being burned out and gives me a very bad taste of 7th edition. I would never willingly play that again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/15 16:24:33


GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

You will find people who prefer 8th, 7th and 6th, you even get twisted heretics who prefer AoS.

You cannot please everyone. If Warhammer CE is 7th based, its 7th based, it adds to the plethora of legacy rulesets that are appearing.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

@auticus: Thanks for the feedback. So the repetitive gameplay drove you away, caused by static charge distances and the manouevering related with it.
That's the same in Warhammer CE. No random attack distances. Though I do not consider it to be repetitive (yet), but to be honest, I think any game played that often will become boring sooner or later.
If this keeps you from taking a look, too bad.
Orlanth pretty nails it. You can't please anyone.
Plethora? Are there so many legacy systems out there that
A) are actually being played by more than 5 people
B) have community support from different gaming clubs
C) use modern tools like a working, own armybuilder, have a cloud system to manage your rosters and share them if you like etc
D) are used at tournaments?



Don't think so





   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




Well I played a shedload of 8th and have played a lot of AOS and haven't been burned out on them yet. For me the deterministic same old same old burns me out. I realize everyone will have different likes and dislikes.

GW points don't bring balance. They exist purely for structure. You can get more balance from no points than you do from GW points. You however can get no structure in your game without points. 
   
Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Moscha wrote:

Plethora? Are there so many legacy systems out there that
A) are actually being played by more than 5 people
B) have community support from different gaming clubs
C) use modern tools like a working, own armybuilder, have a cloud system to manage your rosters and share them if you like etc
D) are used at tournaments?



Don't think so


I can tell you at least half a dozen off the top of my head. Surely there are more, and they tend to be very regional. Blackhammer is quite popular in France and French-speaking countries, MdN is decently popular in Spain and so on.

Other than 9th age of course, which at some time hoovered quite a few of these independent fan developers for their own use.

   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Moscha wrote:
Believe me, you will use some core units anyway because finally they ARE playable and useful no matter what the enemy is fielding. Good gods, I won a local tournament with my dark elves, in my 2000 P list were among others 21 Spearmen, 10 Repeater Crossbowmen, 5 Black Riders, 5 Harpies. In the original version I even had 20 Corsairs on top of that (+50% core units!) but I exchanged them for 13 Executioners, to be fair.
And my Orc&Goblin list contains 30 Common Goblins with Spears. I mean, hey, honestly, did ever somebody field normal stinking Goblins in a competitive play? I don't think so.
So yes, there is the possibility to field no core units in the game, but you can use e.g a limitation like in 8th edition if you like. the only official limitation is 2000 p - one lord maximum


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and i totally forgot my light infantry core unit corsairs with repeater hand crossbow in the abovementioned list.


Dark Elf core are reliable, other armies not always so much. Lack of core tax will not effect Chaos mortals as Warriors and/or Marauders are the heart of your lists, regardless of edition, with a healthy backing of characters.
Undead and Empire armies will want to minimise core to whatever tax demands.

Yes spear goblins can be competitive, they are cheap take a lot of missile fire to get rid of orcs dont care if they flee. Dont base the army on them, but a large flanking unit per flank has a 'Attention must deal with this' sign on it, yet costs chump change to field.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in de
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Germany

jouso wrote:
 Moscha wrote:

Plethora? Are there so many legacy systems out there that
A) are actually being played by more than 5 people
B) have community support from different gaming clubs
C) use modern tools like a working, own armybuilder, have a cloud system to manage your rosters and share them if you like etc
D) are used at tournaments?



Don't think so


I can tell you at least half a dozen off the top of my head. Surely there are more, and they tend to be very regional. Blackhammer is quite popular in France and French-speaking countries, MdN is decently popular in Spain and so on.

Other than 9th age of course, which at some time hoovered quite a few of these independent fan developers for their own use.



I can also tell you a lot of systems off the top of my head. My point was, as you also stated, these tend to be very regional and are only being played by few or nobody.
Even if there is one or two more popular systems in spanish, italian, english, and french speaking countries, this would hardly count as plethora. And that was my entire point.

In Germany, there are 2 systems with a fanbase larger than 5 people other than 9th Age. Fluffhammer and Warhammer CE.

But as the topic is Warhammer CE: Did you check out the rules or try them out? I'd be happy to get some more feedback on the system rather than on my (granted) a bit provocative post






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Orlanth wrote:
 Moscha wrote:
Believe me, you will use some core units anyway because finally they ARE playable and useful no matter what the enemy is fielding. Good gods, I won a local tournament with my dark elves, in my 2000 P list were among others 21 Spearmen, 10 Repeater Crossbowmen, 5 Black Riders, 5 Harpies. In the original version I even had 20 Corsairs on top of that (+50% core units!) but I exchanged them for 13 Executioners, to be fair.
And my Orc&Goblin list contains 30 Common Goblins with Spears. I mean, hey, honestly, did ever somebody field normal stinking Goblins in a competitive play? I don't think so.
So yes, there is the possibility to field no core units in the game, but you can use e.g a limitation like in 8th edition if you like. the only official limitation is 2000 p - one lord maximum


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and i totally forgot my light infantry core unit corsairs with repeater hand crossbow in the abovementioned list.


Dark Elf core are reliable, other armies not always so much. Lack of core tax will not effect Chaos mortals as Warriors and/or Marauders are the heart of your lists, regardless of edition, with a healthy backing of characters.
Undead and Empire armies will want to minimise core to whatever tax demands.

Yes spear goblins can be competitive, they are cheap take a lot of missile fire to get rid of orcs dont care if they flee. Dont base the army on them, but a large flanking unit per flank has a 'Attention must deal with this' sign on it, yet costs chump change to field.


Empire list of a competitive player. Not maxed out, but it gives a good idea how a CE list could look like. Includes pikemen as a core unit.

https://cloud.armycreator.de/view.php?d=5adb84b5aebf6

Another empire list with swordsmen as core unit.
https://cloud.armycreator.de/view.php?d=5a00c5193359f

I didn't get the second part of your reply, are you saying chaos warriors are the heart of the lists regardless of edition? I would fully agree on 8th, but in 7th or 6th? Not really right? Just to slow compared chaos knights.
They fixed that pretty well in 8th by random attack movement and support attacks from the 2nd rank. But as these are not part of CE, player field them for the reason: WoC infantry are supposed and designed to be more effective in close combat point-wise than any other infantry, while lacking firepower. Heavy cavalry, which was the gamebreaker in 6th and 7th, got slowed down in movement and got a raise in point costs in some cases. No more no-brainers here.

Example of a Nurgle Mortal list:

https://cloud.armycreator.de/view.php?d=5a01db592321b

Feel free to comment!










This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/18 12:18:42


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Sorry Moscha, this reminds me why I prefer 8th.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
 
   
Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Moscha wrote:
jouso wrote:
 Moscha wrote:

Plethora? Are there so many legacy systems out there that
A) are actually being played by more than 5 people
B) have community support from different gaming clubs
C) use modern tools like a working, own armybuilder, have a cloud system to manage your rosters and share them if you like etc
D) are used at tournaments?



Don't think so


I can tell you at least half a dozen off the top of my head. Surely there are more, and they tend to be very regional. Blackhammer is quite popular in France and French-speaking countries, MdN is decently popular in Spain and so on.

Other than 9th age of course, which at some time hoovered quite a few of these independent fan developers for their own use.



I can also tell you a lot of systems off the top of my head. My point was, as you also stated, these tend to be very regional and are only being played by few or nobody.
Even if there is one or two more popular systems in spanish, italian, english, and french speaking countries, this would hardly count as plethora. And that was my entire point.

In Germany, there are 2 systems with a fanbase larger than 5 people other than 9th Age. Fluffhammer and Warhammer CE.

But as the topic is Warhammer CE: Did you check out the rules or try them out? I'd be happy to get some more feedback on the system rather than on my (granted) a bit provocative post


The ones I mentioned tick your boxes. Active community, tournaments, different club support, etc.

There are a zillion others in different states of support, stasis, etc.

As per Warhammer CE, I did a cursory glance back when it was released but never really played it (I think there was a topic at warseer). First because it's based off 7th and second because those around miss that either went on to KoW or play MdN.... and it's not in Spanish so that cuts it even more.

I'll leave the topic now so you can keep talking about WHCE.

   
 
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