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Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Thanks for the interesting info about systems played in Spain and France. Though my French and Spanish skills are quite low, I already had a look at Blackhammer and I try to figure out the basic ideas.

Yep, there was a thread started on Warseer some years ago.

Seelenhaendler keeps posting there occasionally.
   
Made in gb
Highlord of Terra






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Where is blackhammer. Links take me to a comic, refined gaming links to take me to a Cyberpunk RPG campaign.

n'oublie jamais

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Orlanth wrote:
Where is blackhammer. Links take me to a comic, refined gaming links to take me to a Cyberpunk RPG campaign.


How's your French?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jj5lbvxamd95jij/BlackHammer%20-%20Livre%20de%20r%C3%A8gles%20V2.pdf?dl=0

It's a 6-7th based rulebook with fixed charge distance, estimation, unit strength, attacker strikes first, no step-up, etc. Changes for the most part are a weird kind of winds of magic with special dice (one a sorta D3, the other 3-6), no AS better than 1+, rank bonus based on unit strengh and not formation, no fear autobreak (-2 to ld instead), halberds strike in two ranks like spears on the turn they receive a charge, ridden monsters can join units and a few others.

It's been a while since I lived in France so can't really remember everything but it was 95% 7th ed with some tweaks. I prefered 8th so I played maybe 3-4 games.

   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Warhammer CE has been updated to V1.05.

The Living Rulebook now includes rules for Dogs of War and
Arabia!

I will ask for permit to upload it in this thread!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For now, here is the link, I hope it works for everybody!


http://armycreator.de/lrb/E_WarhammerCE-LRB-v1.05.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 16:54:49


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Riverside, CA USA

Looks interesting. KoW Vanguard got me interested in building the 6th/7th ed High Elf army I always wanted but never did. Was planning on just doing 6th ed, might try this if I ever actually get around to playing

~Kalamadea (aka ember)
My image gallery 
   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Try and see for yourself what suits you better.
I never played High Elves in 6th, only occassionally against them in tournaments. I found them to be a fair army to play against with my Orcs & Goblins.The rules of the 7th edition armybook killed of any wish to play against high elves with this "always strikes first" rule for all units.
I play High Elves in CE, and it is really enjoyable. The speed of Asuryan rule is very nice, if you get charged in the front, the enemy has -1 to hit in the first round against all High Elves. This way, you can evade a lot of painful attacks against your measly Tougness of 3, and dish out some damage for yourself.
So most High Elves player I know rely on the stat-wise comparably good core troops, and field quite some of these, bolstered by some elite troops , bolt throwers and an eagle ord two (or some Ellyrian Reavers).

My tournament army list (I ended up in 4th place, 2 victories against dogs of war and Ogres, one loss against vampire counts) looked more or less like this:

2000 Points.

2x 20 Spearmen with Standard & Champion
16 Archers
10 Sisters of Avelorn
2 Bolt Throwers
12 Sword Masters with Standard
5 Ellyrian Reavers with Bows
5 Silver Helmets
1 Hero on Horseback with a Magic Lance
2 Wizards Lvl 2

...Something like this. Looks quite fair, no?
A lot of Pew Pew, but hey it's not Chaos Warriors

I did not even use a Lord choice although it was allowed.


   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

The response here was a bit grumpy, lots of 8th edition fans who hated 7th. Anyway, for my part, I think late 6th/early 7th was by far the best period of the game. 8th had some good aspects but magic was way too overpowered, and unit size got totally out of hand. There were a lot of changes in 7th that I thought were really for the best, the only one I did not like was the requirement for a 5 wide rank, as I felt it was purely for money grabbing reasons.

So good luck with this project, I will download the rules though I doubt I will ever get a game in!

   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Thanks!
It is not my project though, I only support and play WCE in my area.

Actually, CE is mostly played in Munich, no so far away from Nuremberg. So maybe you will get a chance for a game sometime! Weiss-Blaue Strategen is the Munich based tabletop club. Some of them switched from 8th edition to 9th age, and some play CE. These are mostly players who had already lost interest in Warhammer Fantasy after the release of 8th edition. If you are German or speak German, I can send you a link to narrative campaigns of old I am/was playing with a friend. We did the "Idol of Gork" campaign, which was released originally for 5th edition, and are playing the "Tears of Isha" campaign at the moment, also originally for 5th edition, with the CE rules
I had to modify the rules a bit here and there of course, but it was a lot of fun.
I just don't want to repost it here because it would be really, really too much work to translate it to English for me and I wouldn't find it fit in an english speaking forum to post in foreign language.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 15:15:35


 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I do speak German (I am Irish, but living in Germany for seven years now and with a German wife).

I should check out Munich for gaming at some point. I did not realise there was such a big scene - I am not on facebook so I find it a bit hard to find clubs and stuff.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Moscha wrote:
Warhammer CE has been updated to V1.05.

The Living Rulebook now includes rules for Dogs of War and
Arabia!

http://armycreator.de/lrb/E_WarhammerCE-LRB-v1.05.pdf


Thanks for sharing this! I'll check it out
____

In looking through Warhammer CE, the first thing I look at is Dogs of War & Empire. As a rule, DoW stuff needs to be somewhat cheaper than Empire stuff to account for the lack of bonus rules. There should also be some discount on the RoR Captains because they cannot leave their units, and must be taken. Same with the Full Command, which is mandatory, rather than optional.

For example, let's just look at basic Crossbowmen which has the same cost per model, except that the Empire unit can take Detachments as a benefit. The DoW version should probably cost -5 pts less to account for that. Now look at Pirazzo's Crossbowmen, which costs +10 pts per additional model, paying +3 pts for heavy armor that isn't even modeled!

Or if you look at DoW Pikemen which start at 8 pts per model, a whopping +2 pts/model increase over Empire Spearmen,

And then the Regiments of Renown seem to be paying an even more outsize cost for their bound Captains and mandatory Full Command.

Compare Voland's Venators with Inner Circle Knights - again, Venators are overpriced, and they lack options.

Hengus is 185 pts? An extra +160 pts for a Wizard with a 5+ Ward who can't select his Spells? And his Giants are 220 pts instead of 160 pts like an Ogre Giant? The unit is overcosted by at least 200 pts.

If the typical costs are like this, Dogs of War will not be competitive with Empire, and their signature Regiments of Renown unplayable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/22 05:06:16


   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Moscha wrote:
Warhammer CE has been updated to V1.05.

The Living Rulebook now includes rules for Dogs of War and
Arabia!

http://armycreator.de/lrb/E_WarhammerCE-LRB-v1.05.pdf


Thanks for sharing this! I'll check it out


Thanks for doing so! I see you had reason to complain, unfortunately. But some positions may be seen in a different light, I think you haven't delved deep enough into the fine differences between 6th/7th and warhammer CE. So there may be some misunderstandings. I will try to adress you points, as far as I can and clarifiy some seemingly unreasonable points. I am not the author of the rules, but I can ask for additional feedback from him if you like!

I cannot give a proper answer to all the positions, but to some I will try! Let's start with this:

IFor example, let's just look at basic Crossbowmen which has the same cost per model, except that the Empire unit can take Detachments as a benefit. The DoW version should probably cost -5 pts less to account for that.

Yes, crossbowmen have the same point costs as empire crossbowmen. Empire crossbowmen cannot take detachments, only state troops can do so, and they have to pay 5 points in order to be able to do it. Crossbowmen do not have this option. They can be a detachment of another unit, yes.

Now look at Pirazzo's Crossbowmen, which costs +10 pts per additional model, paying +3 pts for heavy armor that isn't even modeled!


Maybe you missed out on this special point of CE, which explains a lot: Some units are getting increasingly expensive the more you are fielding of them in your army. Most ranged combat units do. A multiplicator is added to the basic point costs, in the case of crossbowmen, it is 10 points per unit of that type you are fielding. So, if you field one unit of 10 crossbowmen, it will cost you 70 + 10x1 = 80 points. If you field 2 units of 10 crossbowmen, the costs are 70 + 10x2 = 90 points per unit.

An additional crossbowman costs 8 points, and has no armor. Pirazzos crossbowmen cost 10 points, so that is 2 points more for an AS of 5+ instead of none. Sounds reasonable to me. The heavy armour is, I think, for reasons of not having too many different profiles in the unit for hand-to hand combat, as the rest of the unit has heavy armor, too. I don't know. We are talking about 8 points less for a unit with a total cost of 250 points. 250 points for the unit seem high, but it is basically what you get if you add up the costs for 8p per pike (120), (40) points for 4 crossbowmen with heavy armor, musician and standard (25), a captain with the mundane equipment of Pirazzo (65). Equals 250 points.


Or if you look at DoW Pikemen which start at 8 pts per model, a whopping +2 pts/model increase over Empire Spearmen,


Hmm the other way round, the DoW Pikemen are even cheaper than their imperial counterparts, as pikemen are an integral part of DoW armylists (or should be, I would expect the army contains at least one unit of them), they are 20 points cheaper, to be seen as an army special rule. 160 Points DoW vs 180 points Empire.

Why the comparison with the spearmen? They lack the special rule of pikes to be considered as defending an obstacle. Which means no charge bonus for lances or spears, and no impact hits from chariots and the like, and fight in an additional rank than spearmen do. Just not comparable.


And then the Regiments of Renown seem to be paying an even more outsize cost for their bound Captains and mandatory Full Command.

Compare Voland's Venators with Inner Circle Knights - again, Venators are overpriced, and they lack options.


I agree with you, that they lack options. I could take an empire captain and equip him with some fancy magic items. The unit is basically costing exactly what you pay for 4 inner circle knights at basic unit costs, adding a standard, a musician and a captain equipped like Voland. This accounts for 214 points in total. So 215 is fair point-wise, but I can see why one would prefer the inner circle unit.
On the other hand, as the minimum size to compare would be 6 (as they have to take 5 basic knights plus a captain to get the same output as Volands Venators : Venators will pay 16 points to get the extra knight, so 215+16 = 231 points for six models including Voland. The Inner Circle Knights with the same captain & equipment will cost 130 plus Standard & Musician (35), plus the Captain fully equipped like Voland (75) = 240 points.



Hengus is 185 pts? An extra +160 pts for a Wizard with a 5+ Ward who can't select his Spells? And his Giants are 220 pts instead of 160 pts like an Ogre Giant? The unit is overcosted by at least 200 pts.


Basic Wizard Empire: 40 points, the spells coming with Hengus - 135 points. A ward save of 5+ costs about 30-35 points for all heroes in the game - and these are hard to come by - All in all 205 points. Not taking into account that Hengus can redirect damage taken at the giants, and that two of his spells are going off at half of the casting value they usually would - very useful especially considering the spell which can be used to move the giants and give the +2 movement (or +4 charge distance!) in the next round., where you usally need a 10. hard to do for a Lv2 wizard with only 3 dice max. per BM spell. Hengus lets it of at 5+.
Disadvantage of course, you can't put Hengus inside a unit, and you need line of sight to let the magic missile go off.
All in all. I think it is fair when you look at it this way, no?
Point costs of the Giants: I think we have the same misunderstanding here as mentioned above. An Ogre giant does not cost 160 points. It costs 160 + 40x points, meaning, if you use one, it costs 200 points, if you use 2, each one costs 240 points.
So there is even a small discount for the two giants compared to other armies using giants!

I hope my explanations were helpful, though I could not address all points (Discount for being DoW instead of Empire because of Empire special rules - this would go VERY deep).
Edit: Format changed

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/23 11:56:26


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the follow-up. If you could get my comments back, that would be appreciated.

Dogs of War - What Warhammer CE fails to understand is how the DoW army should be structured differently from Empire. It is a fundamental mistake to cost DoW units with bound "upgrades" as if they were freely-chosen like their Empire equivalents. As a rule, if you would not automatically take those options out of an Empire List, as *optimal* upgrades to the unit, then the upgrade needs to be discounted. Perhaps heavily so. For example, DoW missile Regiments of Renown pay full points cost for Captain (with fixed wargear!), Champion, Musician and Standard, where most Empire missile units would never take those upgrades in the first place, much less to *permanently* attach a Captain with fighting upgrades to the unit. In those cases, the "upgrades" are largely a waste, and should cost ~40-50% of what the book cost would be. From a design standpoint, the a la carte Empire cost is for reference, but it is a gross mistake to cost the unit fully this way. OTOH, when the basic upgrades are arguably "good", such as having Full Command for a fighting unit, then yes, charge nearly full points for that, 80% of the Empire cost. However, even then, the Captains (and much of their fixed wargear) are not worth full points, simply because they are bound (and rarely optimal). Granted that GW did this as well in their version, and that is a large part of the reason that the DoW were never competitive, especially when fielding large numbers of signature Regiments of Renown. When the most competitive DoW armies look like Tilean-themed Empire armies, rather than DoW armies, it becomes clear that the designers had failed. So...

With respect to weapons and wargear, the equipment should really match the 5th Edition Army Book, because that's what the models look like. That means most pike will be in light armor (Sv 6+), which is going to be effectively "free", because it's almost meaningless, except for the Republican Guard and Besiegers, which should be in full plate (Sv 4+ & 2+, respectively).

Crossbows - Empire Crossbows can be detachments *and* are the less-preferred choice compared to Handgunners. DoW Crossbows are the fundamental preferred missile troop of the army, so there should be a 5 pt/unit discount there to account for theme and availablity. If Empire Crossbows could take detachments, they would have to cost even more. And because of theme, DoW should have a lower Nx multiplier, 5 pts per unit where Empire should pay 10 per unit. This is the sort of thing that steers players toward making and fielding armies that look "right" on the tabletop.

Pirazzo's Regiment - I get that you are charging even more for more. But as above, you wouldn't equip Crossbowmen with heavy armor, because you'd rather buy more Crossbowmen than spend the points on any armor at all! So, if the regiment is to have a uniform Sv 5+ statline, then the Crossbowmen should pay +1 pt instead of +2 pts for heavy armor. As it is a mixed regiment that *must* take Full Command, then the musician and standard should be discounted from 25 pts down to 20 pts. As Pirazzo is a bound Captain with fixed wargear, he should be discounted from 65 pts to 45-50 pts. 250 pts for the unit is 30-40 pts too high for how good it is on the tabletop.

Pikemen - DoW pay 160 points for 20 pikemen = 8 pts each. Empire pays 55 pts for 10 spearmen = 5.5 pts each in a detachment, 120 pts for 20 standalone = 6 pts each. How are you getting that 20 Empire Spearmen are 180 pts? Pikemen are Spearmen with much longer spears, so they absolutely are comparable. Pikemen should *not* pay extra for their special rule because Empire Spearmen aren't paying extra for their special rules. Otherwise, there should be a *very* hefty points increase for Empire units that can take detachments, whether they take the or not, and that simply isn't the case. DoW should be points-incented to take pikemen as part of the army theme, in the same why that Empire should be heavily incented to take Halberdiers for theme. Halberds are 100 pts for 20 = 5 pts each - 1 pt/model cheaper than Spear or Swords; Swords should actually have a + Nx10p multiplier. Given the theme objectives and how special rules are costed in Empiire, DoW pikemen should cost 5.5-6.5 pts per model, or 110-130 pts for 20 pikemen.

Voland's Ventors - as above, the IC Knights have the option *not* to take Command, *not* to permanently bind a Captain, who would have the option to take any mix of wargear. Mandatory Command should decrease from 35 down to 25-30 pts. If Voland isn't optimal, then he needs to be discounted from 75 pts down to 60 pts. If the IC Knights would cost 240 pts, then Voland's Ventors would cost 215 pts to account for the fixed configuration.

Giants of Albion - As above, Hengus is overladen and priced as if he were buying everything a la carte. Even if his abilites are "better", having to pay an extra 185 pts for him *and* a 2nd Giant is excessive. Giants should be costed like this:
* 200 pts for the first Giant to start the unit.
* 200 pts for the 2nd Giant, because he is *mandatory* - you cannot take just one, and you cannot take 3+, either.
* 145 pts for Hengus. Empire wizard starts at 25 pts, not 40, so he should start at 20 pts being a bound wizard. You wouldn't necessarily load him with 135 pts of spells, much less that specific mix of spells, so that should cost 100. The 5+ Ward is bound... so it should be 20-25 pts intstead of 30-35 pts. If the identical Empire wizard costs 190 pts a la carte, then Hengus should be cost 145 pts.
Therefore, the fixed 3-model Giants of Albion unit should cost 545 pts, not 625 pts.

Regiment-based Dogs of War - If you get right down to it, the DoW army should be redesigned with a different philosophy in general. There shouldn't be generic crossbows or pikemen. Instead, the DoW army should be designed entirely around Regiments of Renown, who can split off sub-regiments. For example, Ricco's Republican Guard would be a Core choice. The first unit would have Ricco and full command, and it could split off sub-units of Guard with full command. This would have similar function to generic pikemen, but it would require the named Regiment to start. There wouldn't be standalone duellists - there would be Vespero's Vendetta, who might split off a sub-unit of Vendetta. Nor standalone halflings - there would be more of Croop's boys. And so on. Every unit in the army ties to a named Regiment of Renown, with it's particular quirks. That makes the army thematic and forces clear distinction from Empire.

As it is, the DoW army list is unplayable as a Regiments of Renown showcase, which defeats the entire point of playing DoW. It is a fundamental mistake to look at DoW as Tilean Empire, when they are not, and should not be, Empire. Using Empire costs as a starting point, to set an upper bound on things is fine, but costs really need to account for the fact that there will be far fewer options in the list. It's effectively the difference between Eldar Aspect Warriors with their fixed wargear and Imperial Guard Veterans with their wealth of options.

Again, if you could get my comments to the design team, that would be appreciated.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/01/23 19:47:45


   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

I will! Thanks for the extensive Feedback!
I will just Copy paste your text and forward it. As soon as He replied, i will repost the answer here.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Cool, thanks!

   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Update: I got an answer, but in German, I will repost it here and give a translation.

At least this is helping to keep my translation skills fresh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/28 15:36:46


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Thanks! Google translate is a thing.

   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Thanks! Google translate is a thing.


Sure. Let's do both, I will post the Google translation right below the real text.and where it is getting ridiculously wrong, I will use human brain Power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/28 19:37:21


 
   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

I begged and moaned and got a reply in English!

So here it is, right from the mouth of the mastermind (sorry, couldn't resist Mr.Seelenhaendler )

In general

Instead of trying to please everyone, which is impossible, WCE is designed with a clear vision and in a consistent way which (hopefully) ensures that the system stays fairly balanced.

The Dogs of War list

The list is based on the Dogs of War / Mercenaries list from 6th edition (Chronicles). In addition to the Regiments of Renown (RoR), it also contains units representing the multitude of mercenary units which, in contrast to the RoR, have not yet come to legendary fame. RoR are kind of the special characters of units. Since they are so important for the mercenary list, they are an integral part of the army, unlike special character models which (currently) are not available in other armies.

To limit the list to the RoR would have the disadvantage that a large part of the diversity of the army would be lost and armies would comprise the same units all the time. Kinda like if every empire army was led by KF or every HE army by Tyrion and Teclis.

The aim of WCE is to give players as much freedom as possible in the composition of their armies.

Balance

WCE is optimized for 2000p armies. This means in particular that units from different armies can be compared, but may not be equated, as other factors must be taken into account.

Therefore, two 2000p armies (composed in a balanced, i.e. varied, way) should be compared to determine whether one army has an advantage over the other. It is also known that there are better and worse matchups. Finding solution to these as well as improving the balance is a continuous commitment of WCE.

Empire

· Detachments are not a free special rule for the Empire, but are included in the point costs of the detachments. Therefore, an Empire player only pays for the special rule if he uses it.

· Handgunners being the preferred choice over Crossbowmen does not apply to WCE, at least not in the local meta where the range bonus is seen at least equal to the AP(1).

· Pikemen: The special rule "Entrenched" in combination with attacking from 3 ranks justifies the higher point costs compared to imperial spearmen, imo. Pikemen cost 180p for the empire, because they are only an additional option for fluff players and should not supersede the typical empire units like halberdiers.

Other

· The allegation that the list would be unplayable if you only took RoR units, is an unfounded assertion and factually wrong.

· The ingame strength of all units is based on the 6th edition, i.e. the effectiveness of certain units or their equipment cannot be judged sensibly on the basis of experiences with later editions (especially 8th). For example, a 5+ armour save is quite relevant in WCE as it is not negated by 90% of the effects/attacks.

· Like special character models, RoR can only be bought as a bundle, i.e. you have fewer options than with equivalent conventional units. It is clear that this combination is usually not optimal or that it does not meet the taste of every player to 100%. If such a combination has a relevant influence on the strength of the unit or the army, then of course this has to be accounted for. This has been done, but other factors have been taken into account that were not mention in your analysis.

The fact that the list offers a wide variety of possible combinations of different units, is one such point that gives the army list an advantage over the empire.

Equally important, all units can be supported/buffed in many ways by the large number of spells from the 8 magic lores.

Thus, the mercenary list offers a huge potential of synergy effects, which distinguishes it from other armies.

Since these effects are not listed as a special rule of the army, they can easily be overlooked. However, this potential has to be accounted for somewhere in the point costs.

This effect has been priced into the point costs of the RoR, as these are responsible for the extraordinary diversity by providing unique unit options for the army.

Instead of simply making the RoR more expensive than comparable units of other armies (which do not have the same unit diversity as the DoW list), they comprise upgrades which cannot always be considered optimal.

At this point, it should be noted that these upgrades actually do offer a relevant advantage in the game and are not just "wasted" points.

· The list is a recent addition to the LRB. The point costs were determined very conservatively, in order to avoid the list being clearly stronger than other army lists.

In particular, it should be avoided that the DoW army becomes an all-star list, where you can combine the best units from different armies in one list and additionally strengthen them with the very flexible magic lores.

For example, a dwarven army list should not be worse than a DoW army with dwarven units (warriors, crossbowmen, Long Drong), heavy/light cavalry, giants, skirmishers and supported by a level 4 mage.

Conclusion:

· The unique synergy potential of the DoW list is responsible for the fact that certain units do not compare favourably to units of other armies.

· However, a 2000p DoW army should be comparable in strength to 2000p armies of other lists.

· Improving balance is an ongoing process, so constructive feedback is always welcome.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 06:12:07


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Moscha wrote:
I begged and moaned and got a reply in English!

Conclusion
· The unique synergy potential of the DoW list is responsible for the fact that certain units do not compare favourably to units of other armies.
· However, a 2000p DoW army should be comparable in strength to 2000p armies of other lists.
· Improving balance is an ongoing process, so constructive feedback is always welcome.


Thank you for asking; however, most of what he wrote is empty words or flat out provably untrue. It's obvious that he didn't read or understand what I wrote. Or he didn't care, which is what appears to really be the case.

I understand that it's based on the Chronicles list, when it should have been based on the 5E list. The "diversity" added in 6E came at the high cost of watering down the army and stripping it of all character. Charging what are effectively premiums for RoR units.


Saying that RoR are comparable to "Special Characters" is completely wrong, because none of them are akin to Special Characters like Morathi - the vast majority of them are non-Lord-level Heroes. Furthermore, saying that they are an "integral part of the army" is belied by the fact that NO DoW army need take an RoRs. The fundamental difference is that HE and Empire are supposed to be completely playable without their Special Characters, where DoW were *only* playable using RoR in 5E. In 5E, the DoW had several actual Special Characters that were totally optional (like KF and Teclis), and not integral to the character of the army, such as Borgio the Besieger, Miragliano, Belladonna, etc. For whatever reason, GW did not release rules for them in 6E, and that is even more the pity.

WCE giving "freedom" is like saying Empire should be able to take anything from the Chaos list and vice versa. The army should be characterful, and that is not captured under the WCE list.

Whether WCE is "optimized" for 2000 pts or not, units of comprable type should pay comparable and fair costs for a similar capability. Yet, Dogs of War have fewer bonus rules, and pay significantly more for the same unit. If a DoW army plays an Empire-like army they will pay more points for the less effectiveness. How is that "balanced"?

He claims that Empire detachments are not free, yet detachment Spearmen only cost 5.5. pts per model, where parent Spearment cost 6 pts per model. If the cost of the detachment bonus is embedded in the detachment, then the models should cost *more* than in the parent, not a half-point less!

If Crossbows are preferred in the meta over Handgunners, then they are obviously too cheap. Handguns should be an efficient upgrade over Crossbows, yet are not.

Pikemen shouldn't be available for the Empire in the first place! Pikemen should be exclusive to Dogs of War armies, only. Giving DoW units to non-DoW armies is a fundamental design mistake that even further disadvantages DoW armies compared to others. Remove Pikemen from the Empire! And no DoW Pike aren't worth a significant price increase relative to Empire Spearmen. If Empire wants to take Pikemen, they should be forced to take a DoW Paymaster and then spend a Special or Rare slot for the Pikemen.

The fact that the RoR units are consistently overpriced makes the DoW army fundamentally uncompetitive. It's a 10% points penalty, or more. While some players are good enough to overcome the handicap, players of equal skill and luck will consistently lose with an all-RoR army against another army. If he cannot numerically refute the examples I provided, which he didn't, then he needs to recost accordingly.

Having a wide variety of bad options is not an advantage. It is the illusion of false choice.

The Empire army has the same access to all 8 lores of Magic, so their units should be comparably overcosted to account for possible magic boosts. Empire armies can also hire Dogs of War, so their units should all have the potential advantage of Dogs of War benefits being added to their internal points costs.

It is untrue to say that the RoR should have all of these extra costs tacked on for possible benefits and synergies when Empire doesn't pay them. The RoR are significantly more expensive than non-RoR units, but don't provide anywhere near the functional benefit. While there is some benefit, the cost is in excess of what it provides, so it's not an advantage - it's an obvious disadvantage. Getting +1 here or there is not a benefit when you have to pay an full pts for a bound Captain with non-optimal wargear. If the stat bonuses were free, or the Captain were free, then that would be something, but its not the case.

When "the points costs were determined conservatively", that's an admission that the units were overcosted, rather than being costed fairly. It is a direct contradiction of the intent of WCE to be fair and balanced. If DoW are to be costed "conservatively", then Empire and the other armies should be costed similarly "conservatively".

The DoW list isn't an "all-star list", because it can't take anything from any other armies, so that is another false claim. Claiming that the DoW army should be worse than every other army that can take DoW units is again a clear statement of bias and unfairness. Instead, the DoW army with all of its advantages should be just as competitive, rather than being handicapped by the worst Dwarf / Empire / other army.

No other army is being penalized on cost based on "potential", except for Dogs of War

As I already demonstrated, a 2000p DoW army is not comparable to a 2000p Empire army.

I already provided constructive feedback, and it was ignored

CONCLUSION

It is a waste of my time to attempt to work with WCE or provide feedback, as there is no interest in revising the DoW list to make it equally competitive with other armies. Instead, it is clear that the DoW army is merely a grab bag to give undeserved benefits to other armies, where the cost disadvantage is outweighed by the ability to take a particular function at all. DoW don't deserve to be treated this way, and it would be better for DoW to be removed for the WCE options than to exist as such.

Based on the underlying philosophy and unfairnness, coupled with the dismissal of feedback provided, I will not have anything further to do with WCE, except to warn other people away from the WCE project.

WCE is not telling the truth when they say they want balance, or fairness, or feedback. It's all a pack of lies, and people should avoid entirely.




   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Wow. just wow.

I will let your answer stand for itself.

Very constructive indeed!

Edit: Removed some subjective, insulting statements.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Edit2: Removed also some "putting oil in the fire"-style comments. It's really hard to resist sometimes!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/01/30 08:48:28


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Whatever, dude.

I gave feedback that things were overcosted, and made suggestions on how to fix that, to make the army better. That is the very definition of "constructive feedback"

He said that DoW were deliberately overcosted for no reason at all. And my impression was that I was talking to a wall.


text removed.
Reds8n

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 11:09:32


   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Whatever, dude.

I gave feedback that things were overcosted, and made suggestions on how to fix that, to make the army better. That is the very definition of "constructive feedback"

He said that DoW were deliberately overcosted for no reason at all. And my impression was that I was talking to a wall.

.


So much hate. The dark side strong in you is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 11:09:41


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Perhaps you should consider how that came to be.

If the dev is going to dismiss people out of hand, yeah, they are not going to be happy about that. If your intended reaction is going to be insulting and putting oil on the fire, as you yourself put it, that is going to drive more negative response.

You and the dev created the situation with your response. As you sow, so shall you reap

   
Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Well, let's see it that way. The army list is obviously not what you expect a DoW list is supposed to look like, as it is not based on the 5th edition DoW list, but on the 6th edition chronicles.
That may be bad from your viewpoint and unacceptable, but there's no need to become rude.
   
Made in ca
Hungry Ghoul





Ontario

As an outsider, I won't be playing CE just from his dismissive-ness in the response and that special characters aren't allowed. I play for the fluff, hence why i still play 6th, and will continue to do so. I don't need "perfect balance" as no one i play with writes hyper-competitive lists like RAF, flying circus, etc. We enjoy the meet up, rolling dice, beers, and having the special characters on the board with armies built to suit them personally. If you look at Destiny 2, they went with perfect balance on release, and lost most of their player base.

Story, Fluff, and Fun are all that we play for, we give some effort to winning, but no one is that competitive to whine if something seems powerful, they just try to kill it faster. There's no unit that can't be killed with enough effort.

Vampire Counts 12,000 pts Tomb Kings 5,000 pts
Skaven 6,500 pts Ogre Kingdoms 7,000 pts
High Elves 7,800 pts
Bretonnia 5,000 pts
Empire 4,500 pts Lizardmen 6,000 pts
Dwarfs 7,000 pts Chaos 16,500 pts
Wood Elves 7,000 pts Dark Elves 7,000 pts
Orcs and Goblins 7,500 pts Dogs of War 3,500 pts.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

I was already hesitant about CE and the response really clenched it that it's not for me. It's very clear with that statement that the dev is of the mindset that it's his playground and we're just allowed to play in it. 9th Age may not be my thing, but at least it's attempting to use community/player feedback.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/30 16:00:44


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Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

That's very OK! Have fun!
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

JohnHwangDD wrote:Saying that RoR are comparable to "Special Characters" is completely wrong, because none of them are akin to Special Characters like Morathi - the vast majority of them are non-Lord-level Heroes. Furthermore, saying that they are an "integral part of the army" is belied by the fact that NO DoW army need take an RoRs. The fundamental difference is that HE and Empire are supposed to be completely playable without their Special Characters, where DoW were *only* playable using RoR in 5E. In 5E, the DoW had several actual Special Characters that were totally optional (like KF and Teclis), and not integral to the character of the army, such as Borgio the Besieger, Miragliano, Belladonna, etc. For whatever reason, GW did not release rules for them in 6E, and that is even more the pity.


Actually, Borgio and Belladonna have rules in Chronicles 2004, and the Marksmen of Miragliano have rules in Warhammer Annual 2003 or Chronicles 2004, but I haven't needed them so I haven't doublechecked.

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Made in de
Crazed Savage Orc




Germany

Aaaah but just to bei sure, it IS of course Always possible to play Special characters, you just have to agree with your opponent that you use them. The campaigns I play are full of special characters.
Nur als they are, well, special, so per se Not really balanced, that's why they are not included in the Basic rules for tournament games.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Just Tony wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:In 5E, the DoW had several actual Special Characters that were totally optional (like KF and Teclis), and not integral to the character of the army, such as Borgio the Besieger, Miragliano, Belladonna, etc. For whatever reason, GW did not release rules for them in 6E, and that is even more the pity.


Actually, Borgio and Belladonna have rules in Chronicles 2004, and the Marksmen of Miragliano have rules in Warhammer Annual 2003 or Chronicles 2004, but I haven't needed them so I haven't doublechecked.


I just looked through Chronicles 2004, and didn't see Borgio rhe Besieger, Lucrezzia Belladonna, or Leonardo da Miragliano in there. Are the DoW Special Characters (also Mydas the Mean / Sheik Yadosh, Lorenzo Lupo and Marco Columbo) in another Chronicles? Because I don't ever recall them being updated for 6E.

   
 
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