Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.

Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.

However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.

Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.

Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.

However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.

Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.

Exactly. The statement in the OP of "One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Guardsmen" is just a mangling of the statement "One Space Marine is worth 10,000 Guardsmen". And even then, it's only true in certain contexts. If you need to garrison a specific piece of ground, for example? Go with the 10,000 Guardsmen.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.

Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.

However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.

Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.

Bingo.

Quick, decisive action vs. what would otherwise turn into a long, protracted siege.

Commissar Ciaphus can kill 10,000 Space Marines! Humanity does not need these Astartes Monstrosities or their Monarchist-Divine Right- Authoritarian Emperor. F him! He's a Monster and so are his ilk! I really believe the Emperor Himself, now worshipped as a God, BETRAYING all he believed in, would order his own execution! And those TRULY LOYAL can at least grant him this final, death bed wish!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Utterly betraying the Imperial Truth! Deep down I bet the Emperor wants to die! Can His "Worshippers" grant Him one last, merciful, service? If He begs.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah I don't think one can make the assumption that Guardsmen and their organizations are just dumb.

I mean they are, but not any more or less than anyone else in the Imperium, on average.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.

Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.

However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.

Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.

Bingo.

Quick, decisive action vs. what would otherwise turn into a long, protracted siege.

While true, it's not as much a reflection on a marine as it is on their modus operandi. The Elysian drop troops, kasrkin, or other elite guard can perform tactical insertions in the same way to generate similar results.

Any soldier that can be immediately placed right next to their target quickly with less risk gets a substantial force and success multiplier bonus.

So the 'power' of marines would be comparing the same action and determining the amount of marines you'd need vs other elite forces to succeed at the same thing.

comparing a guard siege to a marine insertion isn't really an equal measure.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I….didn’t up those numbers. The premise of the thread is “can one Space Marine take 10,000 Guardsmen”.

The simple answer is…yes. Yes they can. Becuase by this admittedly “gone a bit too far, but it’s still established in-universe canon”, a single Space Marine can find himself in overall command of a Gladius escort ship. A ship more than half the size (for reference purposes only) of a Super Star Destroyer. And the Imperial Guard having precisely dick all resources to hand to do a single bloody thing about the incoming orbital bombardment.

So far all the counter points have been “nuh-uh”. And I’ve addressed them with further canonical (so much as it exists in 40K) references to show that…actually….yeah.

And a single guardsman could find himself in command of an anti-orbital planetside battery. What's your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m well into my background, and I enjoy discussing and debating it.

You don't actually seem that knowledgeable on the topic.

It takes 10 Thousand Psykers every DAY to keep the Emperor alive. If you had a conscience, how long could YOU keep that up?!

" 1 Emperor could kill 10,000 Psykers!" How "Glorious!"

There is a Japanese term for this " Duty has the weight of a mountain, while death is as light as a feather." The Emperor, above all, has earned a reprieve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" You must kill me! Must, Astartes PLEASE! Begging on hands and knees! "

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I….didn’t up those numbers. The premise of the thread is “can one Space Marine take 10,000 Guardsmen”.

The simple answer is…yes. Yes they can. Becuase by this admittedly “gone a bit too far, but it’s still established in-universe canon”, a single Space Marine can find himself in overall command of a Gladius escort ship. A ship more than half the size (for reference purposes only) of a Super Star Destroyer. And the Imperial Guard having precisely dick all resources to hand to do a single bloody thing about the incoming orbital bombardment.

So far all the counter points have been “nuh-uh”. And I’ve addressed them with further canonical (so much as it exists in 40K) references to show that…actually….yeah.

And a single guardsman could find himself in command of an anti-orbital planetside battery. What's your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m well into my background, and I enjoy discussing and debating it.

You don't actually seem that knowledgeable on the topic.

I know plenty, thank you.

Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech. And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech.

Or PDF, which are where the guardsmen are recruited from.

And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.

And a single space marine can't run an entire warship solo. You've got a ridiculous double standard where "one space marine" includes a crew of thousands on a warship because the space marine can order them to help, while the guard regiment can't tell the local PDF to use their anti-ship defenses because Reasons.

No a single marine is not killing 10k guard in a streght fight.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech.

Or PDF, which are where the guardsmen are recruited from.

And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.

And a single space marine can't run an entire warship solo. You've got a ridiculous double standard where "one space marine" includes a crew of thousands on a warship because the space marine can order them to help, while the guard regiment can't tell the local PDF to use their anti-ship defenses because Reasons.

Simple matter of Authority.

The PDF and Imperial Guard simply cannot order the Ad Mech about. Even their commanders have to liaise with the Priesthood, who are by no means beholden to fulfil any request. The PDF and Guard will have no idea how to activate the weapons without the Ad Mech, because they’re not trained or educated in the Mysteries of the Omnissiah.

A Space Marine on an Astartes vessel, crewed by Chapter Serfs? Even if they’re simply a Battle Brother? Obeyed without question, barring a higher ranking Marine being in charge.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The PDF and Guard will have no idea how to activate the weapons without the Ad Mech, because they’re not trained or educated in the Mysteries of the Omnissiah.

{citation needed}

Vraks had operational orbital defenses after going traitor, despite being so lacking in technical ability that they couldn't get the Valdors they had stored in the warehouses onto the battlefield until traitor marines showed up to help them. Your claim that orbital defenses are so impossibly complicated that guard/PDF can't operate them is not backed up by evidence.

A Space Marine on an Astartes vessel, crewed by Chapter Serfs? Even if they’re simply a Battle Brother? Obeyed without question, barring a higher ranking Marine being in charge.

But still not "one space marine".

We’ve gone from 10,000 Guard vs 1 Marine. When pointed out a Marine would have the advantage of being able to pick the field? Suddenly its 10,000 Guardsmen and loads of tanks etc.

I brought in the Gladius Class scenario as a counter. That if the Guard are trying to play equipment top trumps, the Marine still wins. Pretty much every single time. Because Marines aren’t as restricted as Guardsmen.

You have a single source, Vraks, which I do need to read again. Spesh as it’s up on Warhammer Vault.

Yet there are dozens of Black Library novels pointing out the PDF and Guard do not operate orbital defences, as those are Ad Mech Installations.

Even powering them requires the Ad Mech to be complicit, which is a further “yes but if I keep adding stuff then I win”. And if you want to play that game? Here goes.

One Space Marine. The Chapter Master. Aboard his flagship Battlebarge. The Chapter’s gathered fleet in tow. The Chapter Master gives the order to Exterminatus. That order isn’t carried out by Marines - but by Chapter Serfs. Ergo, a single Space Marine just directly caused a planet to be wiped out.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Suddenly its 10,000 Guardsmen and loads of tanks etc.

Well yes, the 10,000 guardsmen get their standard equipment. Or do you think "10,000 guardsmen vs. one space marine" means everyone is stripped naked and forced to punch each other to death?

I brought in the Gladius Class scenario as a counter.

Which is not standard equipment for a single marine.

You have a single source, Vraks, which I do need to read again.

Thank you. Orbital defenses are not impossible for PDF/guardsmen to operate.

One Space Marine. The Chapter Master. Aboard his flagship Battlebarge. The Chapter’s gathered fleet in tow. The Chapter Master gives the order to Exterminatus. That order isn’t carried out by Marines - but by Chapter Serfs. Ergo, a single Space Marine just directly caused a planet to be wiped out.

"One space marine orders thousands of subordinates to do something" =/= "one marine".

But thank you for implicitly conceding that the single marine can't beat the 10,000 guardsmen, as you have to resort to bringing in allies for the marine instead of having the marine fight solo.

Yet….one Guardsman can operate an orbital defence facility?

Play fair, or don’t play at all. Because if we want to macro that, we can’t count using firearms, because yes the brain tells the finger to squeeze which sets off the trigger which sets off an electric (Lasgun) or mechanical then chemical process (Bolter) so actually regardless who gets splatted the person with the gun didn’t actually do it.

Chapter Master gives the order. That order is fulfilled by Ship Masters (who aren’t Astartes) and the crew (also aren’t Astartes). One Marine, one Will. All the big death.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet….one Guardsman can operate an orbital defence facility?

No, but the scenario involves 10,000 of them, not one.

Play fair, or don’t play at all. Because if we want to macro that, we can’t count using firearms, because yes the brain tells the finger to squeeze which sets off the trigger which sets off an electric (Lasgun) or mechanical then chemical process (Bolter) so actually regardless who gets splatted the person with the gun didn’t actually do it.

Sure, both sides get their standard gear. That includes tanks/heavy weapons/etc for the guardsmen, it does not include a warship for the single space marine. The only reason orbital defenses are being brought up is your absurd suggestion that "one marine" means "one marine plus a warship and crew".

Chapter Master gives the order. That order is fulfilled by Ship Masters (who aren’t Astartes) and the crew (also aren’t Astartes). One Marine, one Will. All the big death.

"One marine plus thousands of allies" =/= "one marine".

Or if you want to play stupid games that one guardsman happens to be a certain commissar with a "friend" in the inquisition, he calls in a favor, and shortly afterwards the entire marine chapter is declared to be traitors, their homeworld is exterminatused, and their entire fleet is destroyed.

Still doesn’t save the Guardsmen. At all. And it’s kind of hard to see how the Commissar gets the message to the Inquisitor in time - let alone why the Inquisitor would take the radical step of trying to annihilate the Chapter.

Not to mention the Commissariat isn’t really part of the Guard, but a department unto itself

Remember. The premise isn’t “one Marine with standard equipment”. It’s just the poorly defined One Marine. And I just presented a scenario where that One Marine absolutely has the resources and authority to make it a super short battle.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still doesn’t save the Guardsmen. At all. And it’s kind of hard to see how the Commissar gets the message to the Inquisitor in time - let alone why the Inquisitor would take the radical step of trying to annihilate the Chapter.

Because he's just that good in bed and that lucky.

Not to mention the Commissariat isn’t really part of the Guard, but a department unto itself

Um, no. Commissars are absolutely part of the guard.

Remember. The premise isn’t “one Marine with standard equipment”. It’s just the poorly defined One Marine. And I just presented a scenario where that One Marine absolutely has the resources and authority to make it a super short battle.

"One marine plus thousands of allies" =/= "one marine".

But like I said, thanks for conceding the fact that the only way the marine can even attempt to win is to beg someone stronger to fight on his behalf.

It’s…not begging “someone stronger”. It’s a Marine ordering subordinates? Not allies. Direct subordinates. If you’re counting subordinates as allies, then each Guardsman would be entirely on their own, as if they’re following an order, by your rationale, that’s just calling in “allies”.

The Commissars come from the Officio Prefectus, a division of the Departmento Munitorum, who oversee the logistics of the Astra Militarum. The Astra Militarum is a separate entity entirely. You can tell, because each has a separate Head Honcho.

Departmento Munitorum report to Master of the Administratum. Astra Militarum report to Lord Commander Militant. Two organisations that yes work together, but remain apart.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s…not begging “someone stronger”. It’s a Marine ordering subordinates? Not allies. Direct subordinates. If you’re counting subordinates as allies, then each Guardsman would be entirely on their own, as if they’re following an order, by your rationale, that’s just calling in “allies”.

Lolwut. Calling in "allies" from within the 10,000 guardsmen is not bringing in outside forces, it's the 10,000 guardsmen fighting as a standard guard force. A space marine begging the rest of the chapter to send thousands of allies to help is going way beyond the scope of "one space marine".

But like I said, thank you for admitting very clearly that the one space marine loses this fight.

The Commissars come from the Officio Prefectus, a division of the Departmento Munitorum, who oversee the logistics of the Astra Militarum. The Astra Militarum is a separate entity entirely. You can tell, because each has a separate Head Honcho.

Um, no. Commissars are part of the imperial guard chain of command and serve directly within it.

You’re wrong on all counts.

A Chapter Master (the required One Space Marine) is begging no-one. He is ordering his fleet into action. Those aren’t allies. They are Chapter resources. His to direct as he sees fit. Ergo, a single Space Marine can wipe out entire planets, as they have the authority and resources to order Exterminatus if they so wish - and no other Space Marine, though they’d be present, would take an active part of that, as they don’t crew the fleet in that manner.

And you really need to read up on the Commissariat. The entire point of them is that they’re completely apart from the Command Structure of the Imperial Guard.


Now, as for Vraks. Just been skim reading Vol 1, and whilst yes it has Defence Lasers, I’m yet to read where Guardsmen or PDF are operating them. If you could provide a volume and page ref, that’d be appreciated.

One space marine =/= one space marine with thousands of allies.

This farce has gone on long enough, you clearly aren't interested in an honest discussion of anything and your continued insistence on going beyond "one space marine" in a desperate attempt to win is more than enough of a concession that the one space marine loses.

Underlings are not allies. The one Space Marine is using the resources available to him - no different than them equipping their Power Armour, Bolter and Combat Knife. And in commanding his fleet, the Chapter Master remains the sole Space Marine actually involved.

"One space marine" =/= "one space marine plus thousands of non-marine allies".

On the allies thing, perhaps there is a language barrier.

Allies are outside forces. The crews of Astartes fleets are no more allies than the different Companies are allies to each other.

Still doesn’t change the fact that the Chapter Master ordering Exterminatus need not involve any other Marine, because it’s all done by the Crew, which are Chapter Serfs.

A splitting of hairs? Possibly. But still a clear example of when a Single Marine’s actions can defeat untold numbers.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Allies are outside forces.

And thousands of non-marines are outside forces relative to ONE SPACE MARINE.

Nope. Part of the resources available. No different to wielding a weapon.

If it was Guard getting the Navy to bombard? That would be allied forces, as they’re very deliberately separate organisations.

Space Marines, not at all. Whilst the combat capacity of their ships is deliberately limited (geared toward planetary assault and bombardment thereof), it’s still a single fighting force.

One Space Marine, One Will. One order. Goodbye most loving things on that planet. Or indeed all, depending on exactly what sort of Exterminatus Weapon is used.

Like everything, it depends on circumstance. Can the marine place themselves in a position where they limit the guard numbers coming at them.

Can they use surgical strikes on command centres and quick retreats back to orbit to disrupt the guard tactics and orders, can they ambush, inflict significant loss without taking hardly any.

Marine battle barges and strike cruisers are also generally equipped with significant firepower where they can feasibly wipe out large portions of a guard force just via orbital bombardment.

So yes they can. In reality though, are guard without their own imperial navy support, does the planet have a sufficient orbital and anti-orbital defence grid?

One marine vs 10000 guard, on an open battlefield where guardsmen are organised? No chance, last bolts will hit home in weak points, some will get knife into said weakpoints also inevitably. At somepoint very quickly the marine will run out of ammo also and have to close the distance or run away.

Stick them in a normal combat zone and it becomes the deadliest game of hide and seek.