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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We’ve gone from 10,000 Guard vs 1 Marine. When pointed out a Marine would have the advantage of being able to pick the field? Suddenly its 10,000 Guardsmen and loads of tanks etc.

I brought in the Gladius Class scenario as a counter. That if the Guard are trying to play equipment top trumps, the Marine still wins. Pretty much every single time. Because Marines aren’t as restricted as Guardsmen.

You have a single source, Vraks, which I do need to read again. Spesh as it’s up on Warhammer Vault.

Yet there are dozens of Black Library novels pointing out the PDF and Guard do not operate orbital defences, as those are Ad Mech Installations.

Even powering them requires the Ad Mech to be complicit, which is a further “yes but if I keep adding stuff then I win”. And if you want to play that game? Here goes.

One Space Marine. The Chapter Master. Aboard his flagship Battlebarge. The Chapter’s gathered fleet in tow. The Chapter Master gives the order to Exterminatus. That order isn’t carried out by Marines - but by Chapter Serfs. Ergo, a single Space Marine just directly caused a planet to be wiped out.

Would you like that trophy in gold, sir, or just the lamentations of their women?

lmao this thread has gone to deliciously idiotic places at the hands of bad faith astartophiles.

At least we've learned the definition of "a space marine" is actually "all space marines." Why call in an orbital strike when you can get 9999 of your friends and make it an even fight?

No allies means no admech.

No admech means ships going nowhere.

Techmarine you say.

Only one marine I say.

Ok, but honestly, if a guard regiment needs to have anti-orbital batteries, but the space marine just gets a bolter, what are we doing here? Because I'll take the Tech Marine from Hellsreach, and his Ordinatus Nova Cannon as his weapon. You can have all the lasguns and orbital batteries you want. He just needs a single shot, and can likely obliterate the entire 10k. And for the survivors, I turn to a quote by Burt Gummer (Slayer of Graboids)

"The rest were taken out with a mix of small arms fire and hand to hand combat techniques. I AM COMPLETELY OUT OF AMMO. That's never happened before."

Tygre wrote:
No allies means no admech.

No admech means ships going nowhere.

Techmarine you say.

Only one marine I say.

No allies means no Departmento Munitorum. That means no equipment. At all. No Lasguns, no power packs, no flak armour, no grenades, no combat knife, no bayonet and so on and so forth.

No allies means no Enginseers to activate the stuff your quite possibly illiterate Guardsmen have absolutely zero chance of understanding. Or indeed switch on and calibrate communications, maps etc.

No allies means no bulk carriers, no Imperial Navy.

Congratulations, you’ve reduced the whole thing to 10,000 persons, vs a post human monstrosity still clad in his Power Armour and armed with whatever weapon option they’re trained in, because Chapters are self contained fighting units - unlike the Imperial Guard.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the allies thing, perhaps there is a language barrier.

This was unbelievably insulting and greasy to read. You're deliberately trying to gaslight somebody when *you're* the one bending language and universal, uncomplicated concepts -- like the concept of an individual, or the definition of an ally -- within microns of their breaking points.

One space marine is one space marine. If your scenario requires him to communicate or collaborate with a single other living being the premise of the thread has been violated.

Your homebrew definition of "ally" was especially inane. The word has zero connection to hierarchy, and no real human has ever pretended to define it as such.

Cobblers.

Chapter Serfs, who crew Astartes Vessels, are absolutely not Allies. They’re subjects of the Chapter, bound to the Orders they’re given.

An Ally is an external agency. Which Chapter Serfs are not.

Or perhaps I’m my employer’s ally, and not, you know, employee?

Given his country flag suggests English may not be his first language, it is entirely possible a language barrier exists. There’s sod all insulting or “greasy” about that.

Just so this is clear, MDG wasn't the one who started adding on extras. It was the OP who said that the Guard would have artillery and tanks, at which point the conversation changed. People keep adding extras to the 10k Guardsmen and citing either single examples or reacting to a post that was itself a reaction. In turn, the Marine got stuff as well, which apparently isn't fair because "reasons".
Either everyone gets their extras or nobody does.

So 10k Guard can now have attached Marine support in this argument.

How does the Single Marine fare against that?

Well the get all ded.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well the get all ded.

Gets me thinking.

Which GW/BL author would give the single marine the most plot armour?

I would say that was an error on the OP's part ("error" because they clearly seem to have made this thread to get confirmation of a conclusion they wanted to hear echoed back at them, and not out of actual curiosity). They could have left it at infantry-on-infantry and left satisfied.

But nevertheless: if you randomly sampled 10,000 Imperial Guard out of the total amount of Imperial Guard, would some of those 10,000 possibly be assigned to vehicles? Would others be capable of crewing those vehicles?

Yes and yes. But no individual space marine is equipped with a spaceship. However, you could still get away with submitting a Dreadnought as your choice of marine, without straying into the intellectually-dishonest logic bro territory that some people put on offer.

MDG, you're not really worth any more attention in here, because you've crossed well deep into the "i'll just lie about it" zone. It's clear you want to die on this hill, and I'll be your ally in that effort.

Dunno. I think they tend to get exactly as much Plot Armour as required scenario to scenario.

In Nightbringer, there’s a description of Lasgun bolts hitting power armour, causing localised melting. In Horus Heresy, Bolters cut down Marines like wheat before a scythe in one scene, then do much less in the next.

It doesn't really matter though, because the Departament Munitorum would label them traitor guard for attacking a space marine, and then literally everyone would be executed, so in a way, the space marine wins?

You attack a space marine, they ALL die, no ifs ands, or butts. just straight to the Blams.

You don’t even really need to engage them, as the DM could always (bureaucratic inertia aside) just….stop supplying them. So depending on where they turned their coats, you could starve them out in no time.

I mean, just by saying you would attack that single marine, you'd essentially be inviting the Inquisition to come play with your entire unit. And if the inquisition playing with your unit sounds dirty, you need to be made into a servitor.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, just by saying you would attack that single marine, you'd essentially be inviting the Inquisition to come play with your entire unit. And if the inquisition playing with your unit sounds dirty, you need to be made into a servitor.

I would think 10k guard downing one Marine would just be a FF incident. Carry on spraying the target boys.

Accidentally killing one of the Emperor's Angels because you didn't check your fire is a shooting offence. That's pretty high on the list of ideological crimes.

I mean, there’s not a lot of offences which aren’t shooting offences. Including defacing your Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer.

Forgetting to not shoot astartes, oh....you better believe thats a paddling....

OK let's try this.

Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.

Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.

Guess that’ll boil down to the tactics used.

With a battleground of that scale? There is potential advantage for the Astartes, especially if the Forest is particularly dense. Not only can that help obscure their approach, but also limits field of fire. The other aspect here is where the Guard are from. Catachan’s are of course a much trickier prospect, because they’re in their preferred environment. Whereas a Regiment freshly raised from a Hive World might very well be utterly terrified already by this entirely alien environment.

If there’s no time pressure? The Marine can do proper mind games, not needing to sleep as humans do. Night vision thanks to their Power Armour, and indeed other potential visual filters.

Take that approach, and it’s that delightful self-sharpening mono-molecular combat knife’s time to play, especially at night. Take out the pickets, and rampage your way through whatever troops are in the immediate vicinity. This works best if the Guard aren’t all clumped up of course.

The other thing we need to consider is the Astartes can safely eat pretty much anything. And even better? Analyse, via taste any toxins. Coat his knife in it. Poison water supplies or food stores, potentially. I mean, the Guard can absolutely kind of do the same, but it’s more lining up a bunch of Troopers, getting them to each eat something different, then careful notes of record which ones poop themselves inside out or go a funny colour and starting spewing up their rapidly liquifying interiors.

We also need to consider the possibility of Strike and Fade. Not only can the Astartes run far faster than a human being. A cursory Google didn’t help, as it suggested anything from 21kph, to 30 or 50mph.

I mean, any of those is super bloody fast compare to us. Yes Usain Bolt himself is faster in the lowest estimate? But can he keep that speed up for any length of time? No he can’t. The Astartes can. So infiltrate the camp, do a bit of the old Ultra-V, then literally leg it - because the Guard have little to no chance of catching you.

Sure, the Astartes risks running out of ammo far quicker than the Guard, due to the benefit of Lasguns, and him needing to do this over numerous individual assaults. However….there’s very little stopping him from collecting Frag Grenades every engagement, ensuring at least some, if less than ideal, range firepower. Not to mention the potential to commandeer Heavy Weapons, which the Astartes can most definitely use - though the trigger might prove fiddly.

Now the first few nights are going to be the highest risk to the Astartes as I see it, as whatever pickets are deployed are going to be fairly fresh and well rested. Not insurmountable, but trickier than after a few nights of reported massacres, where the victims have been hideously murdered to death. That can leave the Guard paranoid, on edge and ever more exhausted.

So it’s very doable. By no means quickly doable. But definitely doable.

I'm just picturing a DW SM going predator on them, hunting entire platoons of guard at a time, with dead falls, spike pits, and explosive traps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Predator_(film)

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
OK let's try this.

Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.

Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.

It would mostly depend on whether each side knows what the opfor consists of. It would be trivially easy for 10K troops to set up in a way that prevents a single person from successfully assaulting or infiltrating (without authorial fiat plot armour like "finding a hidden cave system to sneak into camp!!"). On the other hand, if the marine knows they have a few days rations he can just... hide. The IG will have to die or forfeit the match by exiting the Forest of Trials.

The Marine sits tight and the IG starve. Combat-wise though? The Marine has no chance if the Guard are well led and organized. They could level a nice area of forest, build a fort and gun the Marine down on approach.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
OK let's try this.

Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.

Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.

Digs a hole, buries himself and activates sus-an membrane hibernation for a hundred years or so. Awaken to glorious victory.

If a fight happens though the guard win. Over the course of an immortal-ish life one space marine probably does beat 10,000 Guard level threats, cumulative not simultaneous.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Marine sits tight and the IG starve. Combat-wise though? The Marine has no chance if the Guard are well led and organized. They could level a nice area of forest, build a fort and gun the Marine down on approach.

Ah ah ah! No leaders, that's not part of the deal. It's 10k regular guard troopers. No commissars, no Company commanders, no primaris Psykers, etc. Against a single Astartes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guess that’ll boil down to the tactics used.

With a battleground of that scale? There is potential advantage for the Astartes, especially if the Forest is particularly dense. Not only can that help obscure their approach, but also limits field of fire.

A Marine stomping through the woods would be *loud* he's huge and tall, breaking branches and all that, at night, he would have 0 surprise effect.


Edit: Speaking from personal experience, anyway, as a bulky-ish guy in army kit, I made a hell of a ruckus last night.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Marine sits tight and the IG starve. Combat-wise though? The Marine has no chance if the Guard are well led and organized. They could level a nice area of forest, build a fort and gun the Marine down on approach.

Ah ah ah! No leaders, that's not part of the deal. It's 10k regular guard troopers. No commissars, no Company commanders, no primaris Psykers, etc. Against a single Astartes.

Guardsmen aren't idiots. Just because none of them have a Commissioned Rank doesn't mean that they can't figure basic stuff out. There's gonna be a few Rawnes and Corbecs in that 10,000.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
OK let's try this.

Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.

Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.

Chapter choice matters more than people are giving credit to. An average Space Wolf or Blood Angel will approach this scenario far differently than an average Raven Guard or Raptor. In this scenario the latter's chances honestly aren't too bad given how they tend to approach warfare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Guardsmen aren't idiots.

Aren't they? The average guardsman is a poorly educated teenager to twenty something year old with minimal training who was quite possibly conscripted against their will and is sent out to die in some backwater shithole for the glory of the Emperor and is fed enough propaganda to not question it.

The vast majority of the Imperium are I would expect rather stupid. Even most Marines are honestly pretty stupid and only truly portrayed as competent at waging war.

The Imperium is not a great place for fostering intelligent thought.